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Montalban
Guest
How old was Aisha when she was married to Muhammed?
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
We continue learning about Muhammad’s peaceful life in Mecca:
EMIGRATION TO ABYSSINIA
47. When tyranny reached its extreme limit the Prophet assembled
his followers, and pointing to the west told them of a land across
the sea where men were not murdered because of a change of
faith, where they could worship God unmolested, and where
there was a just king. Let them go there ; maybe the change
would bring them relief. A party of Muslim men, women and
children, acting on this suggestion, went to Abyssinia. The
migration was on a small scale and very pathetic.
We continue learning about Muhammad’s peaceful life in Mecca:
EMIGRATION TO ABYSSINIA
47. When tyranny reached its extreme limit the Prophet assembled
his followers, and pointing to the west told them of a land across
the sea where men were not murdered because of a change of
faith, where they could worship God unmolested, and where
there was a just king. Let them go there ; maybe the change
would bring them relief. A party of Muslim men, women and
children, acting on this suggestion, went to Abyssinia. The
migration was on a small scale and very pathetic.
- The Arabs regarded themselves as keepers of the Ka’ba, and so they were.
To leave Mecca was for them a great wrench, and no Arab could
think of doing so unless living in Mecca had bkcome absolutely
impossible. Nor were the Meccans prepared to tolerate such a
movement. They would not let their victims escape and have
the least chance to live elsewhere. The party, therefore,
had to keep its preparations for the journey a close secret and
to depart without even saying good-bye to their friends and
relations. - Their departure, however, became known to some
and did not fail to impress them. 'Umar, subsequently the
Second Khalifa of Islam, was still a disbeliever, a bitter enemy
and persecutor of Muslims. By sheer chance, he met some
members of this party. One of these was a woman, Umm
'Abdullah. When 'Umar saw household effects packed up and
loaded on animals, he understood at once that it was a party
leaving Mecca to take refuge elsewhere. - “Are you going ?”
he asked. “Yes, God is our witness,” replied Umm 'Abdullah.
“We go to another land, because you treat us most cruelly here.
We will not return now until Allah pleases to make it easy for
us.” 'Umar was impressed and said, “God be with you.”
There was emotion in his voice. This silent scene had upset
him. - When the Meccans got to know of it, they sent a party in
chase. This party went as far as the sea but found that the
Muslims had already embarked. Not being able to overtake
them, they decided to send a delegation to Abyssinia to excite
the king against the refugees and to persuade him to hand them
over again to Meccans. One of the delegates was 'Amr bin
al-'As, who later joined Islam and conquered Egypt. - The delegation went to Abyssinia, met the king and intrigued with
his court. But the king proved very firm and, in spite of the
pressure which the Meccan delegation and his own courtiers
were able to put upon him, he refused to hand over the Muslim
refugees to their persecutors. The delegation returned dis-
appointed, but in Mecca they soon thought of another plan to
force the return of Muslims from Abyssinia. Among the
caravans going to Abyssinia they set afloat the rumour that all
Mecca had accepted Islam. - When the rumour reached Abyssinia, many Muslim refugees joyfully returned to Mecca
but found on arrival that the rumour which had reached them
was a fabrication. Some Muslims went back again to Abyssinia
but some decided to stay. Among the latter was Uthman
bin Maz`ün son of a leading Meccan chief. Uthman received
protection from a friend of his father, Walid bin Mughira,
and began to live in peace. But he saw that other Muslims
continued to suffer brutal persecution. It made him very
unhappy. - He went to Walid and renounced his protection.
He felt he should not have such protection while other Muslims
continued to suffer. Walid announced this to the Meccans.
One day, Labid, poet-laureate of Arabia, sat among the chiefs
of Meccas, reciting his verse. He read a line which meant that
all graces must ultimately come to an end. 'Uthman boldly
contradicted him and said, “The graces of Paradise will be
everlasting.” Labid, not used to such contradictions, lost his
temper and said, “Quraish, your guests were not insulted like
this before. Whence has this fashion begun ?” - To appease Labid, a man from among the audience rose and said, “Go on
and take no notice of this fool”.Uthman insisted that he had said nothing foolish. This exasperated the Quraishite, who sprang uponUthman and gave him a sharp blow, knocking
out an eye. Walid was present at the scene. He was a close
friend ofUthman's father. He could not endure such treat- ment of his deceased friend's son. But 'Uthman was no longer under his formal protection and Arab custom now forbade him to take sides. So he could do nothing. Half in anger, half in anguish he turned toUthman, and said, “Son of my friend,
you would have saved your eye, had you not renounced my
protection. You have to thank yourself for it.” 'Uthman
replied, “I have longed for this. I lament not over the loss of
one eye, because the other waits for the same fate. Remember,
while the Prophet suffers, we want no peace” (Halbiyya, Vol. I ,
P. 348)."
Unquote
Thanks
B
birdsong
Guest
Still pushing your “muhhamad was a good guy just before he started to kill by the thousands” nonsense? 
How much sillier can people get?
So, in your mind, we should forget all the despicable acts that your prophet committed just because he (apparently) was a normal guy before he showed his true colours?
I’ll tell you something: history is replete with stories about men and women who were consistently good throughout their entire lives …… I’d take any of them as my prophet and role model to follow over muhhamad any day of the week …
Sheesh …… I was convinced islam caused serious brain damage, but never to the extent that you are showing us here ……
How much sillier can people get?
So, in your mind, we should forget all the despicable acts that your prophet committed just because he (apparently) was a normal guy before he showed his true colours?
I’ll tell you something: history is replete with stories about men and women who were consistently good throughout their entire lives …… I’d take any of them as my prophet and role model to follow over muhhamad any day of the week …
Sheesh …… I was convinced islam caused serious brain damage, but never to the extent that you are showing us here ……
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Montalban
Guest
Well it’s nice to know that paarsurrey is peaceful, but his faith has as much connection to Islam as the Mormons do to Christianity.
And about as much relevance
And about as much relevance
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Montalban
Guest
What is the Halbiyya?
No one denies that Muhammed taught peace at the beginning of his career as delluded prophet.
However as his power built, he became more war-like.
But, hey, the massacre of the Banu Quaresh was all a big mistake, hey?
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I never asked to do that. Now, I am posting here for a quite long time, I would talk with reason and would never ask you anything to believe without reason.
I just want to say; did you know the life history of Muhammad before he migrated to Medina? You would have never known it, that is my guess. Please read it very intently so that when I reach that stage, of his life account at Medina, then you could understand and discuss things in proper perspective.
I would never ask you to believe anything without reason or to forget anything just because I differ with you, or you differ with me. It is a good oppurtunity to learn from each other, we shouldn’t miss it.
Thanks
Muhammad had a marvelous record of a peace loving person for 40+13=53 years, he joined in welfare activities if there was any in Mecca, he helped the needy and in distress, he stood for the human cause, he never harmed any person. His record in these 53 years is clean by any standards. At least you should be generous enough to admit it.
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birdsong
Guest
I love it when muslims try to defuse facts and logic with nonsensical verbose that has no other intention but to divert attention from the main point.
A straight question to you:
In your mind, all the assassinations, acts of banditry, rape, etc, that your prophet committed are offset by the fact that he (apparently) was a good and normal guy before he turned 53 years old?
And a follow up question:
**Why would you take as a prophet and role model to follow a man who ended up killing people by the thousands instead of a man / woman who were consistently good, honourable and noble their entire lives? **
I asked you very precise and straight questions. Therefore, I’d like to get concrete answers from you.
A straight question to you:
In your mind, all the assassinations, acts of banditry, rape, etc, that your prophet committed are offset by the fact that he (apparently) was a good and normal guy before he turned 53 years old?
And a follow up question:
**Why would you take as a prophet and role model to follow a man who ended up killing people by the thousands instead of a man / woman who were consistently good, honourable and noble their entire lives? **
I asked you very precise and straight questions. Therefore, I’d like to get concrete answers from you.
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Montalban
Guest
I’ve already acknowledged this. When he had no power he was very much in favour of peace and living with one another in brotherly love.
The problem was that as he got power he began to lead armies into battle - raiding caravans and stealing the property of others - which he justified as ‘booty’ granted to them by Al-lah.
And then he attacked Mecca. He over-saw the execution of PoWs. He encouraged the killing of his old enemies.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
OK so apparently Mohammed was the original terrorist? Obviously not a prophet? Obviously not a man of God? Isn’t that what you are saying? If not, what? Because this is where the discussion has led. It appears he was a murderer and a terrorist from what was posted, a man seeking worldly wealth.
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Montalban
Guest
Certainly not. But he sanctioned terror.
[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
It’s lead to the point of discussing whether or not Muhammed was a ‘peaceful man’ (which is in the title of the thread)
Yes, he was peaceful, but only when he had to be. When he had power we see him in a true light.
And this is the heart of Islam. Preach peace and tolerence when you have to, such as to western secularists, and hide your true intent… which is the spread of Islam.
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Montalban
Guest
Here’s from their own Hadith; an example from the Hadith of Muhammad allowing a lie… where Muhammad allowed a man to use a falsity in order to kill someone…
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I would like to ask a little question from you about Moses and that would answer your follow up question in a powerful way presently .
I quote here a passage from OTBible
Exodus 32:25-35
25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.
27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made."Unquote
Why would you take Moses as a prophet and **role model **to follow a man who ended up killing people by the thousands of his own kith and kin instead of a man / woman who were consistently good, honourable and noble his entire lives?
Could you please justify and rationalize the above? I think you would definitely.
Please note that **Moses **is the **highest Prophet **of the Israelis, a role model, like unto whom no prophet among Israelis has arisen to date with signs and wonders like him, not even Jesus was so. Jesus was a subordinate to Moses.
Thanks
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birdsong
Guest
Before I thoroughly refute your post, I will ask you the following:
Is the logical fallacy commonly known as “tu quoque” the best you can do?
So basically you area saying: “well, muhhamad was a killer, bandit, rapist, etc, etc, etc, but hey !, Moses and other prophets in Judaism/Christianity also committed crimes, so that justifies muhhamad’s despicable acts !!!”
is that really the very best you can offer to defend your so called “seal of prophets”???
Please confirm that such is your level of “reasoning” before I debunk your latest post.
Is the logical fallacy commonly known as “tu quoque” the best you can do?
So basically you area saying: “well, muhhamad was a killer, bandit, rapist, etc, etc, etc, but hey !, Moses and other prophets in Judaism/Christianity also committed crimes, so that justifies muhhamad’s despicable acts !!!”
is that really the very best you can offer to defend your so called “seal of prophets”???
Please confirm that such is your level of “reasoning”
before I debunk your latest post.
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Montalban
Guest
As Birdsong pointed out, you’re using a tu quoque argument. This is a logical fallacy.
When someone can’t defend their own actions they try to attack another’s. Unable to defend Muhammed, you seek instead to distract by attacking Juedeo-Christian beliefs.
I note that as well as this you are highly selective in answering questions - ignoring mine.
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dolphinlove
Guest
Ahhh Montalban, I see you have been introduced to Paarsurrey.
Expect a bit of a song and dance from him, he does not give straight answers, another cut and paster… Have fun!
But i will say he is a peaceful person.
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Montalban
Guest
paarsurrey’s religion, which he calls Islamic, is as much Islamic as Mormonism is Christian… an analogy appopriate as far as historical links are concerned as well.
I would prefer if his faith was normative for all Islam IF what he says about his own faith is true.
I’ve asked him some few questions about his faith, and he’s dodged these.
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birdsong
Guest
Well, I’d not be so sure about the “peaceful person” bit regarding this Peasurrado guy …. I say this because every time a person tries to rationalise and justify the crimes and horrible things that muhhamad did, well, what does that say about that person? What type of values can a person have when he/she sees no problem when a 53 year old man had sex with a 9 year old girl? What type of ultimate role model and “seal of prophets is this?
**And more importantly, what type of person would try to rationalise/justify this? **
Mind-boggling, is it not?
**And more importantly, what type of person would try to rationalise/justify this? **
Mind-boggling, is it not?
M
Montalban
Guest
It’s based on circular logic - that anything Muhammed did must be good because he was a prophet from al-lah
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birdsong
Guest
you forgot to complete the circle Montalban, it goes something like this:
muslim says: everything muhhamad did is good and great because allah says so!!!
non-muslim asks: and where are all these things stated/written?
muslim replies: In the “infallible” quoran, of course !
non-muslim asks again: and how can we know that the Koran is infallible and god’s true word?
muslim emphatically says: Because muhhamad said so !!!
muslim says: everything muhhamad did is good and great because allah says so!!!
non-muslim asks: and where are all these things stated/written?
muslim replies: In the “infallible” quoran, of course !
non-muslim asks again: and how can we know that the Koran is infallible and god’s true word?
muslim emphatically says: Because muhhamad said so !!!
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dolphinlove
Guest
im just saying paarsurrey is a peaceful person, not the religion he follows.
Well, I’d not be so sure about the “peaceful person” bit regarding this Peasurrado guy …. I say this because every time a person tries to rationalise and justify the crimes and horrible things that muhhamad did, well, what does that say about that person? What type of values can a person have when he/she sees no problem when a 53 year old man had sex with a 9 year old girl? What type of ultimate role model and “seal of prophets is this?
**And more importantly, what type of person would try to rationalise/justify this? **
Mind-boggling, is it not?
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