A peaceful man that Muhammad was

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paarsurrey

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Hi
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation mostly because of the mislead Mullah/clergy that serves the purpose of rulers have been given to understand that Islam is a religion of violence, converting others by sword and punishing those who leave Islam by killing them. This suited the rulers as also the clergy for keeping the public subjugated. But this has been the religion of the establishment that may be called as MullahIslam or MullahShariah; this has nothing to do with Islam/Quran/Muhammad. Under this thread I intend to uncover the yet hidden face of true Islam as I understand from Quran and the life of Muhammad, both are open books, no mystery. The true face of peaceful and human loving Muhammad and his religion Islam which is truly speaking moral and peaceful, is very close to the present day concepts as would be seen here.

The first forty years i.e. before Muhammad was appointed ProphetMessenger by GodAllahYHWH has been offered as a reasonable argument/challenge in Quran before Infidels-of-Mecca, and they could not deny its truthfulness.

Muhammad had a marvelous record of a peace loving person for 40+13+2=55 years, he joined in welfare activities if there was any in Mecca, he helped the needy and in distress, he stood for the human cause, he never harmed any person. His record in these 55 years is clean by any standards.
I will be presenting certain events of Muhammad from these first 55 years of his life.
Thanks
 
Ok, so he was peaceful for part of his life. But not for the latter part.

You simply can not forget the fact that for like 13 years he was a violent madman.
 
Hi
Some Events of Muhammad’s Life Before He Was Chosen ProphetMessenger by GodAllahYHWH.
  1. From very childhood he was given to reflection and meditation.
    In the quarrels and rivalries of others he took no part, except with a view to putting an end to them.
  2. It is said that the tribes living in Mecca and the
    territories around, tired of unending blood-feuds, resolved to
    found an association the purpose of which was to help victims
    of aggressive and unjust treatment. When the Holy Prophet
    heard of this, he gladly joined.
  3. Members of this association gave an undertaking in the following terms :
    They will help those who were oppressed and will restore
    them their rights, as long as the last drop of water remained in
    the sea. And if they do not do so, they will compensate the
    victims out of their own belongings (Raud al-Unuf by
    Suhaili).
  4. It seems that no other member of this association was ever
    called upon to discharge the undertaking solemnly entered into
    by members of this association.
  5. But opportunity came to the Holy Prophet when he had announced his Mission. His worst enemy was Abu Jahl , a chief of Mecca. He preached social
    boycott and public humiliation of the Prophet. About that
    time a person from outside came to Mecca. Money was due
    to him from Abu Jahl, but Abu Jahl refused to pay. He
    mentioned this to people in Mecca. Some young men, out of
    sheer mischief, suggested that he should approach the Prophet.
    They thought that the Prophet would refuse to do anything for
    fear of the general opposition to him and particularly for fear of
    the opposition of Abu Jahl. If he refused to help this man,
    he would be said to have broken his pledge to the association.
    If, on the other hand, he did not refuse and chose to approach
    Abu Jahl for the restitution of this loan, Abu Jahl was certain
    to turn him away with contempt.
  6. This man went to the Prophet and complained to him about Abu Jahl. The prophet, hesitating not a minute, stood up, went with the man and
    knocked at Abu Jahl’s door. Abu Jahl came out and saw that
    his creditor was standing with the Prophet. The Prophet
    mentioned the loan and suggested its payment. Abu Jahl
    was taken aback and, making no excuses, paid at once.
  7. When the other chiefs of Mecca heard of this they reproved Abu Jahl, telling him how weak and self-contradictory he had proved.
    He preached the social boycott of the Prophet, yet he himself
    accepted direction from the Prophet and paid a loan on his
    suggestion. In self-defence, Abu Jahl pleaded that any other
    person would have done the same. He told them that as he
    saw the Prophet standing at his door, he also saw two wild
    camels standing one on each side, ready to attack. We cannot
    say .what this experience was. Was it a miraculous appearance
    designed to upset Abu Jahl or was it the awe-inspiring presence
    of the Prophet which produced this hallucination ? A man
    hated and oppressed by a whole town had taken the courage to
    go alone to the leader of that town and demand the restitution
    of a loan. Maybe this very unexpected sight frightened Abu
    Jahl and for a moment made him forget what he had sworn to
    do against the Prophet, and forced him to do as the Prophet
    suggested (Hisham).
One could see peaceful Muhammad loving and caring in service of humanity; no traits of violence there.
Thanks

You might like to read full life account by accessing
alislam.org/books/
Introduction to the Study of Holy Quran (English)
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html
from the Official Website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
 
Hitler was a peaceful man for something like 35 years (prior to 1923 at least) and for considerable periods of time afterwards. Does that excuse the horror he perpetrated during those years when he WAS violent?
 
Perhaps I’ve missed something, but so far as I know Hitler wasn’t a pedophile, so doesn’t that put him ahead of Muhammed at least in one area?
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation mostly because of the mislead Mullah/clergy that serves the purpose of rulers have been given to understand that Islam is a religion of violence, converting others by sword and punishing those who leave Islam by killing them. This suited the rulers as also the clergy for keeping the public subjugated. But this has been the religion of the establishment that may be called as MullahIslam or MullahShariah; this has nothing to do with Islam/Quran/Muhammad. Under this thread I intend to uncover the yet hidden face of true Islam as I understand from Quran and the life of Muhammad, both are open books, no mystery. The true face of peaceful and human loving Muhammad and his religion Islam which is truly speaking moral and peaceful, is very close to the present day concepts as would be seen here.

The first forty years i.e. before Muhammad was appointed ProphetMessenger by GodAllahYHWH has been offered as a reasonable argument/challenge in Quran before Infidels-of-Mecca, and they could not deny its truthfulness.

Muhammad had a marvelous record of a peace loving person for 40+13+2=55 years, he joined in welfare activities if there was any in Mecca, he helped the needy and in distress, he stood for the human cause, he never harmed any person. His record in these 55 years is clean by any standards.
I will be presenting certain events of Muhammad from these first 55 years of his life.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Why didnt you answered the other thread in which we were discousin this already??

When you cant answer something about your religion you change of thread.

Do you think people wont watch that thread “Jesus died in India” in which BelFarfalla already qoute the verses of the quran that discribe the life of Mohamed that you havent replied to?

or you just want to decive here many people as posible?
 
jimmy85 said:
Why didnt you answered the other thread in which we were discousin this already??
When you cant answer something about your religion you change of thread.
Do you think people wont watch that thread “Jesus died in India” in which BelFarfalla already qoute the verses of the quran that discribe the life of Mohamed that you havent replied to?
or you just want to decive here many people as posible?
Click to expand...
Hi
I don’t profess to be a scholar, yet I will provide answer to every question being asked here . Sorry. you shall have to wait for that.

When I came online today, first I started this thread “A peaceful man that Muhammad was” and then I read BelFarfalla’s post in “Jesus died in India”.
You would please agree with me that both are seperate issues, being not so inter-related, so it would be proper to discuss them separately.
Please don’t mind; by the way I don’t feel that I am in a contentious debate with my friend BelFarfalla or anybody else on any topic here. I like polite group discussions in a search for truth with rational,reasonable and logical arguments, for which everybody here is welcome to participate.
Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
I don’t profess to be a scholar, yet I will provide answer to every question being asked here . Sorry. you shall have to wait for that.

When I came online today, first I started this thread “A peaceful man that Muhammad was” and then I read BelFarfalla’s post in “Jesus died in India”.
You would please agree with me that both are seperate issues, being not so inter-related, so it would be proper to discuss them separately.
Please don’t mind; by the way I don’t feel that I am in a contentious debate with my friend BelFarfalla or anybody else on any topic here. I like polite group discussions in a search for truth with rational,reasonable and logical arguments, for which everybody here is welcome to participate.
Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.
Click to expand...
Ok, so I’ll move move posts here.
 
  • Here aer a few of 167 or so Qur’anic verses depecting violence commanded by Muhammad after moving to Mehdina.*
*http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/

*Qur’an 8:39 *So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

*Qur’an 9:29 *“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out hand and are humbled.”

*Qu’ran 2:216 *“Fighting is prescribed for you”

*Qu’ran 4:89 *“Slay them wherever you find them

Qu’ran 9:36“Fight the idolaters utterly (Remember that to Muslims, Christens who believe in the trinity are idolaters or pagans.)

*Qur’an 5:94 *“Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”

*Qur’an 8:7 *“Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”

*Qur’an 8:39 *“Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

*Qur’an 8:65 *“O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

*Qur’an 8:73 *“The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”

Qur’an 9:5“Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

*Qur’an 9:14 *“Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

*Qur’an 9:19 *“Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”

Qur’an 9:38“Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

Qur’an 9:88“The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

*Qur’an 9:112 *“The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

*Qur’an 9:123 *“Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

*Qur’an 48:16 *“Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”

Qur’an 48:22“If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah
 
Just a few of the Hadith that speak of Muhammad having people assassinated. Here are only a few of them. One that is not listed here is a woman poet who wrote poems against Muhammad. He had one of his men killher… the assassine entered her home while she was asleep nursing her baby. The assassine removed th baby and stabbed her to death.

*usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.286 *
*Bukhari, Book Volume 4, Book 52, Number 286: *
Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa:
“An infidel spy came to the Prophet while he was on a journey. The spy sat with the companions of the Prophet and started talking and then went away. The Prophet said (to his companions), ‘Chase and kill him.’ So, I killed him.” The Prophet then gave him the belongings of the killed spy (in addition to his share of the war booty).

*Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271: *
Narrated Jabir:
The Prophet said, “Who is ready to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew).” Muhammad bin Maslama replied, “Do you like me to kill him?” The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say what I like.” The Prophet replied, “I do (i.e. allow you).”

*Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4436: *
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Who will kill Ka’b b. Ashraf? He has maligned Allah, the Exalted, and His Messenger. Muhammad b. Maslama said: Messenger of Allah, do you wish that I should kill him? He said: Yes. He said: Permit me to talk (to him in the way I deem fit). He said: Talk (as you like). So, Muhammad b. Maslama came to Ka’b and talked to him, referred to the old friendship between them and said: This man (i. e. the Holy Prophet) has made up his mind to collect charity (from us) and this has put us to a great hardship. When be heard this, Ka’b said: By God, you will be put to more trouble by him. Muhammad b. Maslama said: No doubt, now we have become his followers and we do not like to forsake him until we see what turn his affairs will take. I want that you should give me a loan. He said: What will you mortgage? He said: What do you want? He said: Pledge me your women. He said: You are the most handsome of the Arabs; should we pledge our women to you? He said: Pledge me your children. He said: The son of one of us may abuse us saying that he was pledged for two wasqs of dates, but we can pledge you (cur) weapons. He said: All right. Then Muhammad b. Maslama promised that he would come to him with Harith, Abu 'Abs b. Jabr and Abbad b. Bishr. So they came and called upon him at night. He came down to them. Sufyan says that all the narrators except 'Amr have stated that his wife said: I hear a voice which sounds like the voice of murder. He said: It is only Muhammad b. Maslama and his foster-brother, Abu Na’ila. When a gentleman is called at night even it to be pierced with a spear, he should respond to the call. Muhammad said to his companions: As he comes down, I will extend my hands towards his head and when I hold him fast, you should do your job. So when he came down and he was holding his cloak under his arm, they said to him: We sense from you a very fine smell. He said: Yes, I have with me a mistress who is the most scented of the women of Arabia. He said: Allow me to smell (the scent on your head). He said: Yes, you may smell. So he caught it and smelt. Then he said: Allow me to do so (once again). He then held his head fast and said to his companions: Do your job. And they killed him.

You can find all of these on this web site. It’s one of the best Islamic sources on the web.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/
 
Muhammed was a violent man who used violence and the threat of violence to spread his religion.

Ask the Jews of Yathrib.
 
Hi
Please see the OP; I had shown my clear intention to submit before you a life sketch of Muhammad from his first 55 years, he spent mostly in Mecca. I would proceed gradually. I welcome all the comments of my friends and I value them, but on close observation, you would observe and agree with me that the same belong to the last eight years of his life; Muhammad died at the age of 63. I will respond when I finish the events of his first fifity five years. I am sorry, you shall have to wait till then with patience.
This also gives me some consolation, that my friends here approve of Muhammad and agree that he was a peaceful, caring, loving man who seved humanity well all along these fity five years.
Thanks

In these fifty five years:
He killed none with his sword to convert to his religion.
He persecuted none for his religion.
He killed none for apostacy.
He killed none even otherwise.
 
BelFarfalla said:
  • Here aer a few of 167 or so Qur’anic verses depecting violence commanded by Muhammad after moving to Mehdina*
Hi
Meanwhile, you could please see the true context and meaning of the verses quoted by you “commanded by Muhammad after moving to Medina” accessing Quran and its commentary from the following link.
alislam.org/

English w/ 5 Vol. Commentary

I think that also suits you, like me you also won’t a contentious debate that only creates hatred and solves no issue, so I don’t do that. If you will look the verses from the Quran and the commenrtary mentioned by me above, you would know the correct meaning by yourself and the matter would resolve by your self-study.
Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Not being a Muslim myself, I am not bound to see Mohammed in terms of the dogmas of Islam. At the same time, Mohammed should not be distorted by anti-Muslim propoganda, as he has often been in the West.

I think Karen Armstrong’s biography is the best I’ve seen. It seems most fair to him and his achievements while not glossing over the dark aspects of his behaviour.

By many accounts it seems that Mohammed was a prophet, mystic, man concerned for social justice and equality, compassionate, and also brave and a good general. But Mohammed was also ruthless sometimes and acted with the degree of ruthlessness one sees in other Semitic prophet-leaders such as Moses and Joshua. It is not the case he is without any mercy or compassion, but certainly he is also not averse to using force and endorsing it as the will of God.

In my view overall, at least until the rise of violent fundamentalist jihadism recently, Islam is no more or less violent than its sister monotheistic faiths. It is unfortunate in more recent times governments and terrorist organisations have transformed Islamic religion into a political ideaology they then use to justify abominable acts of violence against all human life, which Islam and other religions are supposed to regard as sacred. Muslims in my view have a real duty to not just speak up and out against fundamentalist and terrorist violence in their midst but stamp it out aggressively, and repudiate the notion war against either other Muslims or non-believers in the name of religion to force conversion is justified. Until this happens in my view, there can be little hope for real religious peace in the world.
 
Greg27 said:
Not being a Muslim myself, I am not bound to see Mohammed in terms of the dogmas of Islam. At the same time, Mohammed should not be distorted by anti-Muslim propoganda, as he has often been in the West.

I think Karen Armstrong’s biography is the best I’ve seen. It seems most fair to him and his achievements while not glossing over the dark aspects of his behaviour.

By many accounts it seems that Mohammed was a prophet, mystic, man concerned for social justice and equality, compassionate, and also brave and a good general. But Mohammed was also ruthless sometimes and acted with the degree of ruthlessness one sees in other Semitic prophet-leaders such as Moses and Joshua. It is not the case he is without any mercy or compassion, but certainly he is also not averse to using force and endorsing it as the will of God.

In my view overall, at least until the rise of violent fundamentalist jihadism recently, Islam is no more or less violent than its sister monotheistic faiths. It is unfortunate in more recent times governments and terrorist organisations have transformed Islamic religion into a political ideaology they then use to justify abominable acts of violence against all human life, which Islam and other religions are supposed to regard as sacred. Muslims in my view have a real duty to not just speak up and out against fundamentalist and terrorist violence in their midst but stamp it out aggressively, and repudiate the notion war against either other Muslims or non-believers in the name of religion to force conversion is justified. Until this happens in my view, there can be little hope for real religious peace in the world.
Click to expand...
Tagree with much of what you write but with some serious caveats. The barbarism that Muhammad encouraged during his lifetime became a major theme throughout the history of Islam. It didn’t just spring out of a slumber in the nineteenth century with Wahhab. Wahhabism is just the more or less most recent manifestation of the barbarity.

To be sure except for the words one can hardly recognize the actions of many Muslims I know and the actions of so many Imams and terrorists that roam the earth as being from the same religion.

Indeed, if Islam does not find a way to curb the violent tendencies in its own religion and to even change some fundamental understandings that seem all to obvious from the Qur’an itself I would not hesitate to support an all out war to stop them.

To Paaraurrey’s credit I think he is trying to formulate a vision for Islam that is peaceful but I doubt that he can be successful. Aside from the fact that they really do have it wrong about Christ there is simply too much evidence to show that the Qur’an at least as it was redacted under the third Caliphate is a violent vicious religion.

Dump the present Qur’an and there might be some chance. Better, come to Christ and find salvation.

CDL
 
Greg27 said:
It is unfortunate in more recent times governments and terrorist organisations have transformed Islamic religion into a political ideaology they then use to justify abominable acts of violence against all human life, which Islam and other religions are supposed to regard as sacred.
Click to expand...
Can you support that view that it is only in recent times such a transformation took place? Since it’s inception, Islam has made no distinction between the religious and political way of life combining all aspects of society to it’s influence.

Can you also support it’s dogma and/or doctrine that suggests all human life is sacred? I have tried, and in almost every instance, sacred human life is qualified to other Mohammedans only, and those who submit to their political and religious dictates.
 
Paarsurrey,

If we accept that what you say is true – that Islam is a religion of peace – how should we related to the Muslim world, when people fly airplanes into our skyscrapers and kill thousands of innocent civilians? How should we respond to those who manifest a hateful and violent version of Islam and who wield a great deal of physical power?
 
mercygate said:
Paarsurrey,
If we accept that what you say is true – that Islam is a religion of peace – how should we related to the Muslim world, when people fly airplanes into our skyscrapers and kill thousands of innocent civilians? How should we respond to those who manifest a hateful and violent version of Islam and who wield a great deal of physical power?
Click to expand...
Hi
They are the mislead people, they are not on the path of Muhammad/Quran/Islam. They are either the hardened Clergy or their followers, like the Jews in the time of Jesus according to a truthful Hadith of Muhammad, I quote one here:
Prophecy regarding the hardened clergy
Hazrat Ali narrated from Muhammad SAW that the Prophet said: There will come an era on the people of Islam that the real teachings of Islam would not be left but only in name in them (i.e. they would be devoid of the real and truthful teachings of Islam). There would not be left from the Quran except its written text. The mosques of people of that age would inhabit to the full outwardly but these would be empty of the guidance. Their Ulema or scholars would be the worst of the creatures beneath the sky. Tribulations would rise out from such mosques and would return to them (i.e. they would be the source of all the evils of that period). This Hadith has been traditionally narrated by al-Behqui under the al-Iemaan, classification. Its reference is: Mishkat, Kitabul Ilm, al-fasl-us Thalith page 38; Kanzul Ummal volume 6, page 43

Now you could witness that the Hadith is so true to depict these hardened Ulema. Muhammad was a truthful and peaceful ProphetMessenger of God, though there is no compulsion to believe in him, unless one is convinced.
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
They are the mislead people, they are not on the path of Muhammad/Quran/Islam. They are either the hardened Clergy or their followers, like the Jews in the time of Jesus according to a truthful Hadith of Muhammad, I quote one here:
Prophecy regarding the hardened clergy
Hazrat Ali narrated from Muhammad SAW that the Prophet said: There will come an era on the people of Islam that the real teachings of Islam would not be left but only in name in them (i.e. they would be devoid of the real and truthful teachings of Islam). There would not be left from the Quran except its written text. The mosques of people of that age would inhabit to the full outwardly but these would be empty of the guidance. Their Ulema or scholars would be the worst of the creatures beneath the sky. Tribulations would rise out from such mosques and would return to them (i.e. they would be the source of all the evils of that period). This Hadith has been traditionally narrated by al-Behqui under the al-Iemaan, classification. Its reference is: Mishkat, Kitabul Ilm, al-fasl-us Thalith page 38; Kanzul Ummal volume 6, page 43

Now you could witness that the Hadith is so true to depict these hardened Ulema. Muhammad was a truthful and peaceful ProphetMessenger of God, though there is no compulsion to believe in him, unless one is convinced.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Nevertheless, we are still left with a great big hole in the earth at ground zero. And we are receiving promises daily that we will be attacked violently in the name of Allah.

It is difficult to separate the peace from the blood in today’s world. If peaceful Islam has been hijacked by “hardened clergy” (who call YOU a heretic, and put you on the same page as the rest of us “infidels”), then what can we do? They do not take kindly to being reminded that Islam is a religion of peace. It appears to us to be peaceful only when the rest of us are in chains.
 
Verisimilitude said:
Can you also support it’s dogma and/or doctrine that suggests all human life is sacred? I have tried, and in almost every instance, sacred human life is qualified to other Mohammedans only, and those who submit to their political and religious dictates.
Click to expand...
Hi
It is the hardened clergy or their followers who don’t respect human life like the hardened clergy of the Jews who persecuted Jesus.
Thanks
 
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