A peaceful man that Muhammad was

[Eden]

Hi
My Catholic friend! I infer from your above post that:

1. You agree that all converts in Mecca, converted to Islam out of their free will though they were persecuted, they houses destroyed/burnt sometimes, they were subject to a worst social boycott extending to years and they were forced to migrate to Abyssinia (Habsha) a neighboring Catholic Monarchy; even then they were chased by the Infidels of Mecca to bring back to Mecca.
2. Before Muhammad migrated to Medina (he was among the last migrants), a large population of Medina got converted to Islam out of free will.
3. There is not a single verse in Quran which got abrogated anytime, not to speak of a Surah/chapter.

This proves that Islam was never spread by violence but by the character of Muhammad and peaceful and reasonable arguments of Islam as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks

1) The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the Peace Verses.

An example of the abrogation: There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse.

This verse is called the verse of the sword:

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…” Surah 9:5

To see the list of which verses abrogated which, please refer to the article I already posted on abrogation. Ignoring the article is not useful.

2) Regarding converts in Mecca, Muhammed failed miserably to convert anyone there. He only converted his immediate family (*not *including his own uncle and guardian Abu Talib, whom he failed to convince), friends and a few “destitute pagans”. “Others mocked and laughed at him. They called him a fake, a liar and a charlatan”. He was beaten up and chased out of town.

3) In the Medina period, his message and tactics changed:

“deceit, torture, murder, assassination, massacre, genocide, pillage, robbery, enslavement and rape were made halal (legal) acts, deserving of paradise, as long as they were perpetrated on infidels.”

He also changed previous scripture to accomodate local culture:

permitting polygamy, temporary marriages (muta), pedophilia, marriage with adopted son’s wives, wife beating, and sex with slave girls

“The new Islam became an instant hit. The 27 Medina Suras were able to achieve in a few months what the 87 Meccan Suras could not do in 13 years. Arabs began converting in droves and started gaining “Allah’s blessing”, booty and captured women.”

islamreview.com/articles/madinasuras.shtml

 

[Eden]

Thank you for the link. It is so hard for someone unfamiliar with the Qur’an to put everything together, it is so dis-jointed. Nothing is in chronological order. Meccan Ay-yats are mixed up with Medinan Ay-yats are mixed up with Meccan Ay-yats. It’s all a hodge-podge of mixed up Ay-yats, and so confusing.

You’re welcome. It *is *hard to mentally organize the disjunction.

 

[paarsurrey]

1) The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the Peace Verses.

Hi
For the true meaning and interpretation of the specific verses quoted by you, kindly access:
alislam.org/quran/tafseer/guide.htm?region=E1
If you would quote from those resources that are in favor of violence; what would you get from there? Obviously only that which supports their hidden violent agenda, Quran/Islam is not responsible for their mislead approach.
We are only discussing here the truthful teachings of Muhammad/Islam/Quran; not of the politicians who use only name of Islam for their political motives.
Thanks

 

[obadiah]

You’re welcome. It *is *hard to mentally organize the disjunction.

I have two different copies of the Qur’an, one Sunni, and one Shia;
I’ve been reading it off and on for about 30 years, and am very familiar with it but it is difficult to make heads or tails of it, because it’s so mixed up.
I’ve been lurking on this thread for some time and have said little, and reading a lot.
I will say this, JESUS IS LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Muhammad was wrong, Jesus is right. Christianity is the true faith, Islam is a distoration of the fullness of the truth.

 

[Eden]

Hi
For the true meaning and interpretation of the specific verses quoted by you, kindly access:
alislam.org/quran/tafseer/guide.htm?region=E1
If you would quote from those resources that are in favor of violence; what would you get from there? Obviously only that which supports their hidden violent agenda, Quran/Islam is not responsible for their mislead approach.
We are only discussing here the truthful teachings of Muhammad/Islam/Quran; not of the politicians who use only name of Islam for their political motives.
Thanks

You can view these verses on the Saudi Arabian Government website. The producer of these videos shows which suras to look for and how to access them. I hope you look at some of these and tell me what you think:

The Qu’ran says to fight and kill Christians and Jews:

youtube.com/watch?v=ZmnvV7sV_mU

Abrogation:

youtube.com/watch?v=2uqWSRyI_8s

If you pay, you won’t get killed:

youtube.com/watch?v=xYiBI5H_cUc

In the Qu’ran, Christians and Jews are “dirty”:

youtube.com/watch?v=LYo2cmKN1lw

There are a lot more that discuss violence against non-believers and other topics related to non-beliers. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[paarsurrey]

You can view these verses on the Saudi Arabian Government website.

Hi
We follow peaceful Quran/Islam/Muhammad that are our primary and foremost resources, we don’t have to follow any particular Government in the matter of religion. For correct translation, meaning and interpretation of any specific verse , please read:
For the true meaning and interpretation of the specific verses cited by you, kindly access:
alislam.org/quran/tafseer…htm?region=E1
Thanks

 

[Eden]

Hi
We follow peaceful Quran/Islam/Muhammad that are our primary and foremost resources, we don’t have to follow any particular Government in the matter of religion. For correct translation, meaning and interpretation of any specific verse , please read:
For the true meaning and interpretation of the specific verses cited by you, kindly access:
alislam.org/quran/tafseer…htm?region=E1
Thanks

So, you haven’t viewed any of the videos? Or you just don’t have a response? It seems that no Muslim has a legitimate argument against what the videos teach about the Qu’ran (which makes me inclined to believe the videos are accurate).

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
We continue learning about Muhammad’s peaceful life in Mecca:
40. “These cruelties, perpetrated against a weak and innocent
group and their honest, well-meaning but helpless Leader, were
not wasted, however. Decent men saw all this and became
drawn to Islam. The Prophet was once resting on Safa, a
hill near the Ka’ba. The Meccan chief Abu Jahl, the Prophet’s
arch-enemy, passed by and began to pour vile abuse on him.
The Prophet said nothing and went home. A woman-slave
of his household was a witness to this distressing scene. Hamza,
the Prophet’s uncle, a brave man feared by all his townsmen,
returned home from a hunt in the jungle and entered the house
proudly, his bow hung on his shoulder. The woman-slave
had not forgotten the morning scene. She was disgusted to
see Hamza walk home thus. She taunted him, saying that he
thought himself brave and went about armed but knew not what
Abu Jahl had done to his innocent nephew in the morning.
Hamza heard an account of the morning incident. Though
not a believer, he possessed nobility of character. He may
have been impressed by the Prophet’s Message, but not to the
extent of joining openly. When he heard of this wanton attack
by Abu Jahl, he could not hold back. His hesitancy about the
new Message was gone. He began to feel that so far he had
been too casual about it. He made straight for the Ka’ba,
where the chiefs of Mecca were wont to meet and confer. He
took his bow and struck Abu Jahl hard. “Count me from today
a follower of Muhammad,” he said. “You abused him this
morning because he would say nothing. If you are brave,
come out and fight me.” Abu Jahl was dumbfounded. His
friends rose to help but, afraid of Hamza and his tribe, Abu
Jahl stopped them, thinking an open fight would cost too dearly.
He was really to blame, he said, about the morning incident
(Hisham and Tabari).
41. THE MESSAGE OF ISLAM
Opposition continued to mount. At the same time the
Prophet and his followers were doing all they could to make
plain to the Meccans the Message of Islam. It was a many-
sided Message and of great ultimate significance, not only for
Arabs but for the whole world. I t was a Message from God.
It said :
The Creator of the world is One. None else is worthy of
worship. The Prophets have ever believed Him to be One, and
taught their followers so. Meccans should give up all images
and idols. Did they not see that the idols could not even
remove the flies which dropped on the offerings laid at their
feet ? If they were attacked they could not repel. If they had
a question put to them, they could not answer. If they were
asked for help, they could do nothing. But the One God
helped those who asked for His help, answered those who
addressed Him in prayer, subjugated His enemies, and raised
those who abased themselves before Him. When light came
from Him, it illumined His devotees. Why then did the Mec-
cans neglect Him and turn to lifeless images and idols and waste
their lives ? Did they not see that their want of faith in the
One True God had made them utterly superstitious and in-
competent ? They had no idea of what was clean and what was
unclean, of right and wrong. They did not honour their
mothers.
42. They treated savagely their sisters and daughters,
and denied them their due. They did not treat their wives
well. They tormented widows, exploited orphans, the poor
and the weak, and sought to build their prosperity on the ruins
of others. Of lying and cheating they were not ashamed, nor
of burgling and loot. Gambling and drinking were their
delight. For culture and national advance they did not care.
How long were they going to ignore the One True God, and
continue to lose and lose, and suffer and suffer ? Had they not
better reform ? Had they not better give up all forms of
exploitation of one another, restore rights to whom they were
due, spend their wealth on national needs and on improving
the lot of the poor and the weak, treat orphans as a trust and
regard their protection as a duty, support widows and establish
and encourage good works in the whole community, cultivate
not merely justice and equity, but compassion and grace ?”
Unquote
Thanks

 

[Montalban]

paarsurrey’s view of Muhammed is not that of all Moslems - most Moslems don’t view his religion as Islamic.

Muhammed applauded the execution of his enemies. Muhammed was not a peaceful man, except when he had to be.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
We continue learning about Muhammad’s peaceful life in Mecca:
43. Life in this world should be productive of good. “Leave good works behind”, the Message further said, “that they may grow and bear fruit after you are gone. There is virtue in giving to
others, not in receiving from them. Learn to surrender that
you may be nearer to your God. Practise self-denial for the
sake of your fellow-men, that you may multiply your credit with
God. True, the Muslims are weak, but do not go after their
weakness, Truth will triumph. This is the decree of Heaven.
Through the Prophet a new measure and a new criterion of good
and evil, of right and wrong, will be set up in the world.
Justice and mercy will reign. No constraint will be allowed in
the matter of religion, and no interference. The cruelties to
which women and slaves have been subjected will be obliterated.
The Kingdom of God will be instituted in place of the kingdom
of Satan.”
44. When this Message was preached to the people of Mecca and the well-meaning and reflective among them began to be impressed by it, the elders of Mecca took a serious view of . ,
what was happening. They went in a deputation to the
Prophet’s uncle, Abu Talib, and addressed him thus :
You are one of our chiefs and for your sake we have so far
spared your nephew, Muhammad. The time has come, how-
ever, when we should put an end to this national crisis, this
conflict in our midst. We ask and demand that he should
desist from saying anything against our idols. Let him pro-
claim that God is One, but let him not say anything against our
idols. If he agrees to this, our conflict and controversy with
him will be over. We urge you to persuade him. But if you
are unable to do so, then one of two things must happen.
Either you will have to give up your nephew, or we, your people,
will give you up (Hisham).
45. Abu Talib w as confronted with a hard choice. T o give up his nephew was hard. Equally hard was it to be disowned by
his people. Arabs had little in the way of money. Their
prestige lay in their leadership. They lived for their people,
and their people for them. Abu Talib was much upset. He
sent for the Prophet and explained to him the demand made by
the elders of Mecca. “If you do not agree,” he said with tears
in his eyes, “then either I have to give you up or my people
will give me up.” The Prophet was in evident sympathy
with his uncle. Tears came to his eyes and he said :
I ask you not to give up your people. I ask you not to stand
by me. Instead, you may give me up and stand by your
people. But the One and Only God is my witness when I
say that even if they were to place the sun on my right and the
moon on my left, I would not desist from preaching the truth
of the One God. I must go on doing so until I die. You can
choose your own pleasure (Hisham and Zurqani).
46. This reply, firm, straight and sincere, opened the eyes of Abu Talib. He sank deep in thought. Though he did not
have the courage to believe, he thought he was lucky to have
lived to see this grand demonstration of belief and regard for
duty. Turning to the Prophet, he said :
“My nephew, go your way. Do your duty. Let my people
give me up. I am with you” (Hisham)."
Unquote
Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey’s view of Muhammed is not that of all Moslems - most Moslems don’t view his religion as Islamic.

Hi
Everybody is free to believe whatever is one’s faith. We know for sure that we are true in our faith. We are tolerant to their view so that is why we clear their misconceptions with rational, reasonable and logical arguments, rest we leave to GodAllahYHWH, we have only to care for Him .
Thanks

 

[Montalban]

Hi
Everybody is free to believe whatever is one’s faith. We know for sure that we are true in our faith. We are tolerant to their view so that is why we clear their misconceptions with rational, reasonable and logical arguments, rest we leave to GodAllahYHWH, we have only to care for Him .
Thanks

You’re certainly welcome to believe what you want, but to put it forward as normative Islamic thought without noting that you’re in a vast minority is dishonest.

 

[paarsurrey]

So, you haven’t viewed any of the videos? Or you just don’t have a response? It seems that no Muslim has a legitimate argument against what the videos teach about the Qu’ran (which makes me inclined to believe the videos are accurate).

Hi
I don’t have to . I know that they have misunderstood the verses, that is why PromisedMessianImamMahdi was to come to clear those misunderstandings of the Muslims, Catholics, Protestants etc, etc.
Thanks

 

[Montalban]

Hi
I don’t have to . I know that they have misunderstood the verses, that is why PromisedMessianImamMahdi was to come to clear those misunderstandings of the Muslims, Catholics, Protestants etc, etc.
Thanks

They haven’t misunderstood at all. They’ve a whole history of interpretation that leads them to believe what they believe.

 

[StMarkEofE]

They haven’t misunderstood at all. They’ve a whole history of interpretation that leads them to believe what they believe.

Not being a student of the Quran can anyone tell me if the word: Love as it would apply not only to God but to your neighbor appears in the book and how is it used?

 

[paarsurrey]

They haven’t misunderstood at all. They’ve a whole history of interpretation that leads them to believe what they believe.

Hi
Then perhaps you are free to join them. What is holding you back? I won’t mind.
Thanks

 

[Montalban]

Hi
Then perhaps you are free to join them. What is holding you back? I won’t mind.
Thanks

Ouch! What a retort. That’s certainly won people over… not that it addresses anything at all.

If you read “Legacy of Jihad” by Andrew G Bostom you can at least then realise that the majority of Moslems have argued what jihad really means

The four main schools of Islamic thought have centuries of interpretation behind them.

I really do suggest you read The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims by Andrew G Bostom. Then you might know what you’re talking about

There is for instance, an Appendix of Islamic Jurists, Theologians and Historians in his book (see p682). You might have valid views of Muhammed for your own faith, but you’re a minority faith that’s not even recognised as Islamic by most Moslems

You’re in effect like a Mormon arguing that your views are those of “Christianity” as a whole. And that’s dishonest

 

[paarsurrey]

Ouch! What a retort. That’s certainly won people over… not that it addresses anything at all.

And that’s dishonest

Hi My Catholic friendMontalban!
Well you would admit that at the end of almost every post I write that I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam, so I have concealed nothing from anybody, be he a Catholic/Protestant or Sunni/Shia.

Please remember when Jesus, a Jew, was sent by GodAllahYHWH as a ProphetMessenger he started alone, the Jews were in the majority or they were the mainstream of Judaism or normative Jews as some Catholics have used such words, but Jesus had his diffrent views from the Jews. Jesus scolded/cursed Jewish Sadocees and Phracees and yet we believe that Jesus was truthful, this did not make him untruthful, he also said that he was Jew, while the Catholics don’t call them Jews. So our stance is exactly what was Jesus stance against Jews . I think you understand.

Now the Promised Messiah is just like that, as this is the second coming of Jesus in his symbolic form, so the situation is not different but simliar.

We Ahmadis are 200,000,000 in numbers, maybe it is comparable with Jesus in his first hundred years, and we are in 186 countries.

I think that is sufficient for a peaceful reply.God bless you!

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Ouch! What a retort. That’s certainly won people over… not that it addresses anything at all.

And that’s dishonest

Hi My Catholic friend Montalban!
Well you would admit that at the end of almost every post I write that I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam, so I have concealed nothing from anybody, be he a Catholic/Protestant or Sunni/Shia.

Please remember when Jesus, a Jew, was sent by GodAllahYHWH as a ProphetMessenger he started alone, the Jews were in the majority or they were the mainstream of Judaism or normative Jews as some Catholics have used such words, but Jesus had his different views from the Jews. Jesus scolded/cursed Jewish Sadducees and Pharisees and yet we believe that Jesus was truthful, this did not make him untruthful, he also said that he was Jew, while the Catholics don’t call them Jews. So our stance is exactly what was Jesus’ stance against Jews . I think you understand.

Now the Promised Messiah is just like that, as this is the second coming of Jesus in his symbolic form, so the situation is not different but similar.

We Ahmadis are 200,000,000 in numbers, maybe it is comparable with Jesus in his first hundred years, and we are in 186 countries.

I think that is sufficient for a peaceful reply. God bless you!

Thanks

 

[Montalban]

Hi My Catholic friend Montalban!

I am neither your friend, nor Catholic.

Well you would admit that at the end of almost every post I write that I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam, so I have concealed nothing from anybody, be he a Catholic/Protestant or Sunni/Shia.

Indeed, but you still say “Islam is this or that”. You’re a minority view of Islam, at best

Please remember when Jesus, a Jew, was sent by GodAllahYHWH as a ProphetMessenger he started alone, the Jews were in the majority or they were the mainstream of Judaism or normative Jews as some Catholics have used such words, but Jesus had his different views from the Jews. Jesus scolded/cursed Jewish Sadducees and Pharisees and yet we believe that Jesus was truthful, this did not make him untruthful, he also said that he was Jew, while the Catholics don’t call them Jews. So our stance is exactly what was Jesus’ stance against Jews . I think you understand.

If Jesus taught non-Jewish things as Jewish things…

Now the Promised Messiah is just like that, as this is the second coming of Jesus in his symbolic form, so the situation is not different but similar.

Problem for you is that as far as Christianity is concerned, our Messiah has come. As far as Islam has come, no more prophets are due. You simply are an add-on to an add-on.

We Ahmadis are 200,000,000 in numbers, maybe it is comparable with Jesus in his first hundred years, and we are in 186 countries.

Super. Which of the two groups of Ahmadi are you?

I think that is sufficient for a peaceful reply. God bless you!
Thanks

But, as noted, if Mormons came onto this forum and started saying “Christians believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet”, they’d be corrected as not representing Christian thought, but Mormon thought.

If you go to this Ahmadi site you’ll note that they recognise that their version of Jihad is distinct from the Islamic view.