A pep talk for single guys

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Now that I think about it more, having a planned evening lays out options for a woman upfront. If others have asked her out, she might weigh all those options and choose what sounds more fun for her based on that. Or if she doesn’t like what you have planned, she can decline.

But, leaving it open to her decision makes it so that she cant decline smoothly on the spot with an excuse (mainly because there isnt an event to decline) and probably makes her feel as though she’s being pressured. Kind of like saying “We’re hanging out regardless. We know that much. What we do is almost secondary so we’ll figure it out.” It backs them into a corner and they dont like that. They like to be able to see if spending their time with you is going to be beneficial to them in some way or if going out with the other guy who asked might be better off for her instead.

My next question is, why does it only matter whats in it for her?
 
Now that I think about it more, having a planned evening lays out options for a woman upfront. If others have asked her out, she might weigh all those options and choose what sounds more fun for her based on that. Or if she doesn’t like what you have planned, she can decline.

But, leaving it open to her decision makes it so that she cant decline smoothly on the spot with an excuse (mainly because there isnt an event to decline) and probably makes her feel as though she’s being pressured. Kind of like saying “We’re hanging out regardless. We know that much. What we do is almost secondary so we’ll figure it out.” It backs them into a corner and they dont like that. They like to be able to see if spending their time with you is going to be beneficial to them in some way or if going out with the other guy who asked might be better off for her instead.

My next question is, why does it only matter whats in it for her?
Uhhhh…you don’t get to decide on your own how women feel (or what is just basic manners) and then ask an offensive and off-the-wall question based on statements that you made without any support.

You have it backwards. Women don’t feel backed into a corner when you don’t have a plan. Quite the contrary, we feel as though you don’t really want to go out with us. How often do you say to people “We should hang out soon”, or even “Lets do something this weekend” and it never happens? People say these things without meaning them daily. If you have a plan such as dinner or a baseball game, we feel like we’re actually being asked on a date. And even if we don’t like the activity, if we like you we will say yes-or even say yes and suggest an alternative. (Like “I’m actually allergic to seafood, do you like Mexican?”)

Oh, and we don’t weigh options. People are free to date around until they are in an exclusive relationship. If she likes you, she’ll say yes. Even if she also said yes to a more interesting date with someone else.
 
I think the original article hits the nail on the head pretty squarely. If I ever meet someone I want to date, I’d like to think I’d be able to “man up” enough and follow it. Being shy/timid isn’t my problem. I just need to meet someone first 🙂
 
Uhhhh…you don’t get to decide on your own how women feel (or what is just basic manners) and then ask an offensive and off-the-wall question based on statements that you made without any support.
You’re just mistaking my assertiveness and confidence for being offensive. 😛
You have it backwards. Women don’t feel backed into a corner when you don’t have a plan. Quite the contrary, we feel as though you don’t really want to go out with us. How often do you say to people “We should hang out soon”, or even “Lets do something this weekend” and it never happens? People say these things without meaning them daily. If you have a plan such as dinner or a baseball game, we feel like we’re actually being asked on a date. And even if we don’t like the activity, if we like you we kwill say yes-or even say yes and suggest an alternative. (Like “I’m actually allergic to seafood, do you like Mexican?”)
It most certainly backs them into a corner.

For example…

Guy: Hi Jane, would you like to have dinner and watch a movie Friday?

If she doesn’t like it or has been offered a more fun evening by someone else, she can always say…

Jane: I’ll be out of town that weekend. Sorry Guy.

As opposed to boxing them in like this…

Guy: Hi Jane. Would you like to hang out on Friday?

Jane: Sure Guy. What do you have planned?

Guy: What would you like to do Jane?

Its at this moment of uncertainty that she begins not to like, but since she has already said “sure” to hanging out, she is now unable to weigh options and is now most likely disinterested and annoyed by her perdicament anyway. Now she can’t say she’ll be out of town that weekend and decline on the spot smoothly either. For some reason women have a hard being blunt and upfront with their answers (whether Yes or No) or their possible ulterior motives (What does this guy have to offer? aka What is he useful for?)

So the conversation continues…

Jane: Idk Guy. I like coffee.

Guy: Great, coffee it is.

He’s basically boxed her in and she cant claim that shes refusing because she doesn’t like a certain activity, for that can always be modified by our (what they perceive to be) pushy and pressuring Guy. So there’s no exit there. They cant make an excuse that theyre busy, otherwise they’ll look like a liar or it can be modified once again. The only out is to be blunt, but they dislike that tactic for the most part.
Oh, and we don’t weigh options. People are free to date around until they are in an exclusive relationship. If she likes you, she’ll say yes. Even if she also said yes to a more interesting date with someone else.
Of course people who aren’t in a relationship with one another are free to date anyone they’d like. You’ve misunderstood my scenario.

Where they weigh options is for all the people who’ve asked them out on a specific one night. If drinks with Bob sound more fun than dinner with Guy, well I’ll go with Bob Friday and tell Guy Im busy. She’s free to do that, but why not be upfront? If someone has alreadt asked her out, she can say shes busy or no. But they will leave their options open and see what you have to offer, but they cant effectively do that if the man is being vague in his description. Thats kind of shallow and superficial IMO.
 
It most certainly backs them into a corner.

For example…

Guy: Hi Jane, would you like to have dinner and watch a movie Friday?

If she doesn’t like it or has been offered a more fun evening by someone else, she can always say…

Jane: I’ll be out of town that weekend. Sorry Guy.
The problem is that if she doesn’t like the date, it won’t matter as long as she likes you.

And if she’s already committed to going out with someone else that night, if she’s a woman of quality she won’t blow him off for you anyway, regardless of the proposed activities.

As opposed to boxing them in like this…

Guy: Hi Jane. Would you like to hang out on night?

Jane: Sure Guy. What do you have planned?

Guy: What would you like to do Jane?

Except at this point, she probably wouldn’t ask what he had planned. She would probably assume that it was one of those average daily “We should hangouts” that are never really meant and never happen. If you want a DATE, you should ask for a DATE.

Its at this moment of uncertainty that she begins not to like, but since she has already said Sure to hanging out but she is now unable to weigh options and is now most likely disinterested and annoyed by her perdicament anyway, but she can’t say she’ll be out of town that weekend and decline on the spot smoothly either. For some reason women have a hard being blunt and upfront with their answers (whether Yes or No) or their possible ulterior motives (What does this guy have to offer? aka What is he useful for?)

Uhhh…I’d be annoyed because I would feel like he didn’t really want to go out with me and that he was just asking women to “hang out” until someone took him up on it. And the aforementioned concerns about budget are a big issue. And yes, I would assume that he was poorly mannered in general. What he did was by both traditional and modern rules of etiquette, rude.

So the conversation continues…

Jane: Idk Guy. I like coffee.

Guy: Great, coffee it is.

He’s basically boxed her in and she cant claim that shes refusing because she doesn’t like a certain activity, for that can always be modified by our (what they perceive to be) pushy and pressuring Guy. So there’s no exit there. They cant make an excuse that theyre busy, otherwise they’ll look like a liar or it can be modified once again. The only out is to be blunt, but they dislike that tactic for the most part.

This makes no sense. At all. Women don’t refuse because of the activity, and if they do, they suggest an alternative. And this guy doesn’t seem pushy, he seems like a pushover. And yikes! I could not imagine being asked out and then asked what we should do. Budget and dietary concerns are both huge.

Where they weigh options is for all the people who’ve asked them out on a specific one night. If drinks with Bob sound more fun than dinner with Guy, well I’ll go with Bob Friday and tell Guy Im busy. She’s free to do that, but why not be upfront? If someone has alreadt asked her out, she can say shes busy or no. But they will leave their options open and see what you have to offer. Thats kind of shallow and superficial IMO.

If someone has asked her out, she’s given an answer. And if she has any character at all, she won’t blow off the guy she’s agreed to go out with for something or someone more fun.
 
Uhhhh…you don’t get to decide on your own how women feel (or what is just basic manners) and then ask an offensive and off-the-wall question based on statements that you made without any support.

You have it backwards. Women don’t feel backed into a corner when you don’t have a plan. Quite the contrary, we feel as though you don’t really want to go out with us. How often do you say to people “We should hang out soon”, or even “Lets do something this weekend” and it never happens? People say these things without meaning them daily. If you have a plan such as dinner or a baseball game, we feel like we’re actually being asked on a date. And even if we don’t like the activity, if we like you we will say yes-or even say yes and suggest an alternative. (Like “I’m actually allergic to seafood, do you like Mexican?”)

Oh, and we don’t weigh options. People are free to date around until they are in an exclusive relationship. If she likes you, she’ll say yes. Even if she also said yes to a more interesting date with someone else.
Yes!

When we really want to get together with somebody (for reasons romantic and non-romantic), we make specific plans with a time, a place, and an activity.
 
Now that I think about it more, having a planned evening lays out options for a woman upfront. If others have asked her out, she might weigh all those options and choose what sounds more fun for her based on that. Or if she doesn’t like what you have planned, she can decline.
It is, in effect, asking her to sign a blank check–a very uncomfortable feeling.
 
Right off the bat:

Would you like to have dinner and watch a movie?
“Watch a movie” implies going back to your place, or worse, inviting yourself to her place.
I think what all the women are saying is that you have to think about what you’re saying.
Say would you like to go out for dinner? We could go to the movie after, if you like…

Lots of options for her here…she can
  1. meet you at the restaurant
  2. skip the dinner if she’s on a special diet and still go tot he movies
  3. take you up on both, or
  4. say yes to an early movie (she has to be up early.
But in all of the scenarios she is not in a private (non-public) place with a relative stranger.
One thing you have to remember is: no matter how pure your intentions are, the fact is that one in four women are assaulted by the time they are 21. Women have to be so careful. So, phrasing something well, will win your points with women. 👍
 
Regarding BEL’s critique of Thorns:

Yeah.
  1. Thorns is assuming a lot of bad faith.
  2. How does he know that the woman isn’t reading the “hang out offer” as “we’ll stay home at my place (cause I’m cheap, lazy and unimaginative), watch TV (that she probably won’t even like), make out and maybe have guilt you into having sex with me/date rape you”? That’s how I would read it. Why would you be surprised if a nice Catholic girl (or girl, period) isn’t interested in that particular offer? If you make it clear that you’re actually going “out,” your intentions sound more honorable. That’s one the differences between actual dating and the very common “friends with benefits” arrangement, after all.
  3. That’s true about women not refusing because of activity. If you say, “Let’s go on a hay ride!” and she says, “I have terrible allergies,” if she likes you and has any social savvy, she’ll propose a less sniffly alternative. If she just says, “I have terrible allergies” and leaves it at that, she probably doesn’t like you.
  4. Women with manners know that a commitment is a commitment, so if you’re going out with Bob, you’ll go out with Bob, even if Hot Steve asks you out later. You can always ask Hot Steve to take you out on a different day, after all–there are 364.25 other days in the year that Hot Steve could take you out. (Some fine print if you discover that Bob is a registered sex offender, is a felon, etc.)
  5. She might say she’s busy not because she has anything going on, but because she doesn’t like you and she feels her cats need more quality time.
 
Right off the bat:

Would you like to have dinner and watch a movie?
“Watch a movie” implies going back to your place, or worse, inviting yourself to her place.

Yes! Good catch. That is not a good opening move. “Meet in a public place” is Personal Safety 101.

I think what all the women are saying is that you have to think about what you’re saying.
Say would you like to go out for dinner? We could go to the movie after, if you like…

Lots of options for her here…she can
  1. meet you at the restaurant
  2. skip the dinner if she’s on a special diet and still go tot he movies
  3. take you up on both, or
  4. say yes to an early movie (she has to be up early.
But in all of the scenarios she is not in a private (non-public) place with a relative stranger.
One thing you have to remember is: no matter how pure your intentions are, the fact is that one in four women are assaulted by the time they are 21. Women have to be so careful. So, phrasing something well, will win your points with women. 👍
Yes!
 
I think having a planned date is just common courtesy. Even when married, planning a date night relieves the wife of the burden of having to plan an evening. She plans stuff all day, so not having to plan something gives her some small reprieve.

And don’t be afraid to plan something she may not like. If she likes you, she will either go along with it to be with you (and maybe like the activity more than she thought). Or, she will counter-offer with something else. As long as your plans are decent, you can’t lose.
 
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Groo:
I think having a planned date is just common courtesy. Even when married, planning a date night relieves the wife of the burden of having to plan an evening. She plans stuff all day, so not having to plan something gives her some small reprieve.

And don’t be afraid to plan something she may not like. If she likes you, she will either go along with it to be with you (and maybe like the activity more than she thought). Or, she will counter-offer with something else. As long as your plans are decent, you can’t lose.
Agreed. The man has a definite plan–a definite place and one or two times. At a neutral location. Remember, women live scared lives and are afraid for their safety.

Also, the second paragraph (whether she counteroffers after refusal) is the best way to gauge her interest in you.

Anyways, so after a streak of approaching the more attractive women but not getting their numbers, this time I got the numbers of two women I like.

I’m getting better at not being intimidated by external beauty. Of course, LA is such a target rich environment and beauty is so common.

One of the girls is in the group I swim with. We have talked before. I asked her to go hiking, and she said she had a family vacation, “next time” though.

The other girl is from a church I’ve been visiting. I asked her to eat Salvadoran food (pupusas are good and common in LA), and the other said she’s been very busy including the day I suggested. “Rain check.”

Neither offered to reschedule for a definite day.

In the past I would’ve continued to try to be their friend to gain more rapport first. But I agree with posters here that false intentions like that are dishonest, and don’t do any good.

But with limited time and no guarantee I’ll run into these women again, how do I make enough of an impression for them to want to be more than friends?

Back to the drawing board I guess…
 
When did men become so afraid to make a commitment, to take the lead, to say what they want, to make long term plans, to set goals, to pursue, to talk about the future?
First think, then act. Before you say what you want, you need to know what you want. And you don’t know if you have no basis on which to make reasonably sure conclusions. Neither is it wanting if you’re merely conscious of experiencing an incentive or inclination that you still need to judge before you act on.

Besides:
When did men become so afraid to make a commitment, to take the lead, to say what they want, to make long term plans, to set goals, to pursue, to talk about the future?
On what? A third date? Ludicrous.
If you’re hanging out with a woman and you feel like you might be into her, tell her.
Tell her — i.e. focus her attention on yourself, awaken hopes in her etc. — if you only feel like you might ‘be into her’?

Once again: feel like you might. What a lovely modality.

That’s a point where you tell someone you appreciate his company, perhaps you tell him that he’s being rather attractive to you, something to help him explain your behaviour and see if he is possibly on the same page.

Otherwise you keep thinking. You may be jammed, but that’s called ambivalence and means you’re experiencing tensions because there are pros and cons in a more less equal measure. May be something wrong with your ability to think, judge and choose, may be that you don’t have enough data, or may be that you’re simply in a less than ideal situation that really is hard to judge. In any case, jumping in head first from the bridge is not the answer.
Call her on the phone. Take her out on a date. Say the words: “I’d like to take you out.” No ambiguity.
An absence of ambiguity in words is worth nothing if it’s just words. When it’s actions rather than words, it’s likely to be hurtful.
Plan the date yourself. Women want you to be decisive. Lose the whole “so waddaya wanna do tonight?” schtick. Take charge. Pick her up at 7. Pay for the meal. Have a conversation with her. Go mini golfing or something. Go somewhere. Open the door for her. Put your phone away. Open up to her. Share your ideas, your dreams, your fears. Get to know her. Pursue her. Pursue her. Invest yourself in the process, as scary and unsure as it may seem. Take a risk, gentlemen. Go out on a limb for once. Be purposeful. Be desirable. Be a man."
I agree with the general notion that young single guys often need to just man up but there are limits.

I need to say that there many people, armchair pragmaticist shall we say, who find pleasure in recommending action — instead of talking or thinking. Except recommending action and talking about action is still talking.
Trust me, I’m not innocent. I’m married now, but I was once a part of this hazy, undefined dating-but-not-dating scene. I never liked it, because nobody does. I never found any happiness in it, because nobody does. But I was a part of the problem. I was a wimpy manchild, afraid of meaningful commitments, afraid of being alone, afraid of rejection, afraid of the future, afraid of being betrayed, afraid of being loved. Just afraid, really. Afraid of everything.
Yes, and may be swinging the other way now for compensation. I’ve been there done that.

For the record, multiple broken marriages and even nullity decrees or divorces go back to a ‘let’s get married’ mentality. This is something BXVI noted and preached about to the Rota, the highest church court for marriages. Something also bishops are addressing and trying to fix marriage prep. ‘Act first, think later’ is not optimal advice. Here, it’s just dating and not marriage prep, so the gravity of the problem is far far less, but the same rule holds.
 
I had several failed dating ‘situations’ before I got married. Some collapsed within months, others took considerably longer. But all of them were eventually destroyed by problems that were clearly evident in the first, I don’t know, five minutes or so.
Of course. The data comes in first, then comes reflection. If you act on a red flag the very moment you see one, you’re bound to make some silly decisions you’ll later regret. It takes time to process what you see or hear and make sense out of it.
If you’re hanging out with a woman and you feel like you might be into her, tell her. Call her on the phone. Take her out on a date. Say the words: “I’d like to take you out.” No ambiguity. Plan the date yourself. Women want you to be decisive. Lose the whole “so waddaya wanna do tonight?” schtick. Take charge. Pick her up at 7. Pay for the meal. Have a conversation with her. Go mini golfing or something. Go somewhere. Open the door for her. Put your phone away. Open up to her. Share your ideas, your dreams, your fears. Get to know her. Pursue her. Pursue her. Invest yourself in the process, as scary and unsure as it may seem. Take a risk, gentlemen. Go out on a limb for once. Be purposeful. Be desirable. Be a man.
  1. Life isn’t a game. You need to be confident, but you need to be honest and genuine too. You need to be genuine, or you’ll go nuts and make life miserable for everybody.
  2. If you aren’t pressed to take charge, if you’re feeling subdued, dismayed, then you’re either shy or just simply not that much into her.
  3. You don’t pursue somebody before you know you want him or her, just like you don’t write a passionate committed application letter for a job you don’t even know you want or not.
  4. Paying for the meal, holding the door, pulling the chair and the rest is, or used to be, basic etiquette and it loses sense totally if it’s treated like a mating ritual (or dating game). It’s basically what it means to act like a gentleman, no more or less, and it’s not even central to acting like a gentleman, it’s merely one of the ways it may show.
For the record, the inviter pays for the guest because the inviter acts like the host. It doesn’t really matter who is which gender, nor does the host need to fancy the guest for that matter. The same principle applies to the other gestures, actually, as they tend to mean conceding the higher place to others, helping others, being nice etc., which are universal things. There are some differences, for example a man will rarely pull the chair for another man or help him with his coat, but it happens, and even in some cases women do that to men as well (as hostesses for example, or when the man’s important to them, either way care or respect). Obviously, men don’t normally kiss hands or stuff, but even there exceptions apply, for example kings or priests (and no, it isn’t always the ring).

Here. 😛

Hope I’ve helped some young guys avoid being bullied into stupid action through recklessness.
 
Agreed. The man has a definite plan–a definite place and one or two times. At a neutral location. Remember, women live scared lives and are afraid for their safety.

Also, the second paragraph (whether she counteroffers after refusal) is the best way to gauge her interest in you.

Anyways, so after a streak of approaching the more attractive women but not getting their numbers, this time I got the numbers of two women I like.

I’m getting better at not being intimidated by external beauty. Of course, LA is such a target rich environment and beauty is so common.

One of the girls is in the group I swim with. We have talked before. I asked her to go hiking, and she said she had a family vacation, “next time” though.

The other girl is from a church I’ve been visiting. I asked her to eat Salvadoran food (pupusas are good and common in LA), and the other said she’s been very busy including the day I suggested. “Rain check.”

Neither offered to reschedule for a definite day.

In the past I would’ve continued to try to be their friend to gain more rapport first. But I agree with posters here that false intentions like that are dishonest, and don’t do any good.

But with limited time and no guarantee I’ll run into these women again, how do I make enough of an impression for them to want to be more than friends?

Back to the drawing board I guess…
It’s really just a numbers game. I wouldn’t read anything into it anything more than that.

When a woman says ‘next time’ I think it is OK to ask again, but not right away (since they are busy). Wait about a month or so and then call again. If they say ‘no’ a second time without a counter-offer then you know they’re not interested.
 
It’s really just a numbers game. I wouldn’t read anything into it anything more than that.

When a woman says ‘next time’ I think it is OK to ask again, but not right away (since they are busy). Wait about a month or so and then call again. If they say ‘no’ a second time without a counter-offer then you know they’re not interested.
Yes, one does get a free second try (unless there were clear signals not to). Not giving an alternative date or activity could be just absent-mindedness (we’re all drowning in electronic messages so it’s hard to keep up), but two “busies” means she’s 1) not interested 2) not socially savvy (so she’d know she could come up with an alternate time) or 3) a flake. None of that is very inviting.

Funnily enough, I use basically those rules when trying to schedule playdates for the kids or social engagements for us grownups. That’s also very much a numbers game and people can be very flaky. I do not chase people who don’t chase back. If we booked a family zoo or museum trip and you’re a no show with no explanation or advance warning, I will explore my other options before trying you again, even if I think you’re a great person and your kids are great too. I’m looking for the people who are responsive and interested, not the ones who dawdle with returning emails, are unsure, don’t make reciprocal invitations, and don’t make counter suggestions.

Dating really is not unique in terms of the social problems involved.
 
Chevalier,

The article is largely addressed to the kind of guy we see a lot around here, whose method of courtship is just to lurk in close proximity to the women he is interested in. He gets upset that they don’t ever notice him and that they seem to go for bad guys (i.e. guys who can open their mouths and audibly speak to women and ask them out).

For more information try googling “problem with nice guys.”
 
Of course. The data comes in first, then comes reflection. If you act on a red flag the very moment you see one, you’re bound to make some silly decisions you’ll later regret. It takes time to process what you see or hear and make sense out of it.

**Yes. It takes a while to understand what things mean and to sift the wheat from the chaff in terms of information.
**
  1. If you aren’t pressed to take charge, if you’re feeling subdued, dismayed, then you’re either shy or just simply not that much into her.
There are also people (of both sexes) who mope for YEARS hoping that their friend/crush will notice their adoration.
  1. Paying for the meal, holding the door, pulling the chair and the rest is, or used to be, basic etiquette and it loses sense totally if it’s treated like a mating ritual (or dating game). It’s basically what it means to act like a gentleman, no more or less, and it’s not even central to acting like a gentleman, it’s merely one of the ways it may show.
**It is both 1) basic etiquette and 2) a mating ritual. (Although I’m pretty sure that chair holding is something you can get away without doing.) **

For the record, the inviter pays for the guest because the inviter acts like the host. It doesn’t really matter who is which gender, nor does the host need to fancy the guest for that matter.

Yes–a lot of people don’t get this. Dating is a subset of hospitality with regard to etiquette–the host pays. Hence, the host should carefully plan the event to be within their means.

Hope I’ve helped some young guys avoid being bullied into stupid action through recklessness.
We have a lot of timid bachelors here (including some older bachelors) who would like to date or have a serious girlfriend but haven’t been able to. Some of them even have women they are VERY interested in for some time.
 
My husband picked our first date. I can assure you that I have many interests of my own. But he asked me out, so he needed to have something in mind. He took me out for a great date, and at the end of it, he asked what my idea of a good second date would be. I suggested my favorite coffee place, and we went there the next time. See how the back and forth works?
👍
 
Maybe a good thread topic would be:

Where and how to avoid all the awful women I’ve met so far in my life.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Seriously…guys would be offended if I started a thread saying that all men were unreasonable, unfeeling, and clueless jerks.
But guys love to say how misunderstood they are by all women they’ve ever met.
How can that be? 🤷

Most of the posters here sound ok…except for the ones who won’t ask a girl out…I mean, there’s a bare minimum effort, ya know? 😊
Hahaha… lot’s of guys are confused about women and many women can make it hard for men to know them. That’s what your hearing. True, the thread is very simple and interesting.
 
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