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Xantippe
Guest
I really dislike the phrase, also. However, it can be convenient shorthand for, “Stop curling up into a defensible ball and make an effort!”
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Thorns
Guest
Yup.
And to chrisdeep, contemplate this for a second… Women dont actually always know if you’re unattractive. If you can manage to form an image of yourself in their head and the way they perceive you, even if they initially had a negative opinion, they will look at you differently. If you talk confidently and carry yourself in a positive and high esteemed light, they will usually follow that portrayal.
I might get some flak for this analogy but its so true. Its like walking a dog on a leash. After some time of using the leash, at some point during the walk if you remove the leash, as long as you dont draw attention to it, the dog will continue to walk by yourside calmy, thinking the leash is still attached.
Also, if youre not confident in your looks dont draw attention to them. Showcase your other positive attributes instead.
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Thorns
Guest
Maybe. I always found it so odd that when I’d be out on a date with a woman, women who would’ve never noticed my existence before, were all of a sudden making crazy eye contact, throwing flirty smirks, or trying to chat me up once my date went to the bathroom etc. But the times Id be out alone, or with a couple of guy friends, I was always utterly invisible lol.
Im starting to see relationships as credit. In order to get credit, you already have to have credit.
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CatholicWhovian
Guest
Yeah. Actually it’s a dream of mine to have a non-Filipina (particularly someone with red hair - because I have a thing for redheads) as a girlfriend - even as a future wife. I’ve met one who was an exchange student in our university but I didn’t have the chance to get to know her more because I didn’t knew her schedule and I saw her rarely. I felt it was a lost opportunity.
Better expand my horizons I guess?
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Xantippe
Guest
Yeah.Yeah. Actually it’s a dream of mine to have a non-Filipina (particularly someone with red hair - because I have a thing for redheads) as a girlfriend - even as a future wife. I’ve met one who was an exchange student in our university but I didn’t have the chance to get to know her more because I didn’t knew her schedule and I saw her rarely. I felt it was a lost opportunity.
A lot of people (especially atypical people) do better dating and marrying foreigners. And of course there are a lot of special issues there–you have to have a fairly high level of willingness to deal with alien behavior. The stuff that will be adorably exotic when you’re just getting to know each other will be a big pain in the neck once your are married and have kids. Also, you need to know the other culture and the other individual well enough to understand what behavior is cultural and which is unique to the individual.
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Xantippe
Guest
Or, putting it differently, “attractive” is not an entirely objective physical quality. Look at Tommy Lee Jones (the actor)–he is one rough looking dude, but I suspect that a lot of women have found him attractive.
imdb.com/media/rm607374336/nm0000169?ref_=nmmi_mi_all_sf_2
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Groo
Guest
Right…a little does go a long way in pursuit. It is more like gently leading a dance than pursuing a triathlon or a doctorate in Astrophysics.
Someone posted a joke that ‘all you have to do is say hello.’. That is actually not far from the truth. Just make a small move in her direction and see if she responds. If she responds, make another small move. If not, then you have your answer.
One example from my experience…I attended a Catholic young adult event where there was one single attractive woman and many single men. The single men flocked towards this poor woman and showered her with attention and long conversations.
I did something different. Instead of trying to initiate some long drawn out discussion, I simply walked up to her, said “hi, my name is Groo.”. She said hello and said her name. I said " nice to meet you" and then walked away - leaving her to the horde of schmucks.
At the start of the meeting I sat by myself somewhere and she sat right next to me even though there were plenty of open seats. So I felt pretty good about myself, then proceeded to blow it by acting like a know-it-all in the meeting. She left in the middle and I never saw her again. Ahhh well, you live and you learn.
Someone posted a joke that ‘all you have to do is say hello.’. That is actually not far from the truth. Just make a small move in her direction and see if she responds. If she responds, make another small move. If not, then you have your answer.
One example from my experience…I attended a Catholic young adult event where there was one single attractive woman and many single men. The single men flocked towards this poor woman and showered her with attention and long conversations.
I did something different. Instead of trying to initiate some long drawn out discussion, I simply walked up to her, said “hi, my name is Groo.”. She said hello and said her name. I said " nice to meet you" and then walked away - leaving her to the horde of schmucks.
At the start of the meeting I sat by myself somewhere and she sat right next to me even though there were plenty of open seats. So I felt pretty good about myself, then proceeded to blow it by acting like a know-it-all in the meeting. She left in the middle and I never saw her again. Ahhh well, you live and you learn.
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Luvz2travel
Guest
Yeah I so hate when guys expect women to do all the work in a relationship. That’s why I gave up on it. I never really felt I could develop feelings for a guy that didn’t think I was worth even the effort of planning a date for themselves.
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bsf
Guest
Sorry you are so disappointed in your relationship experiences.Yeah I so hate when guys expect women to do all the work in a relationship. That’s why I gave up on it. I never really felt I could develop feelings for a guy that didn’t think I was worth even the effort of planning a date for themselves.
CCC 1808
Fortitude is the moral virtue that ensures firmness in the difficulties and constancy in the pursuit of good….The virtue of fortitude enables one to conquer fear, even fear of death, and to face trials and persecutions….
I suspect you already know this, so I will just opine in the hope that it encourages you. “Giving up” is probably not what God wants of us when we continually encounter failure in the pursuit of good. I suspect what God wants of us is to simply share with Him our sorrow and disappointment, and ask for the wisdom to understand if we are to continue in the pursuit of something, and if so, the fortitude to continue. I understand how difficult it can be to have or maintain trust in God.
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Luvz2travel
Guest
Well I tried for many years and the last four relationships got worse. I won’t go into all if but I figured it was GODs way of telling me I wasn’t supposed to be married. I have other priorities at the moment anyway. If something isn’t working and you run into the same propblem over and over it’s just logical to let it go and move on.
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Xantippe
Guest
The single ladies would like to subscribe to your newsletter (and want to know where that male-dominated young adult group is).
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Thorns
Guest
When I was younger I made this mistake a few times. My thinking was more like, “I dont want to bore her doing something that I like, so instead I will do what she likes and place her interests before mine.” I never thought she wasnt worth it and I never saw it as a wimpy move, but rather a thoughtful move. But then I realize women hate that, so I stopped leaving it open to them and instead had more of a plan of what I wanted to do and asked them if they’d like to join me.Yeah I so hate when guys expect women to do all the work in a relationship. That’s why I gave up on it. I never really felt I could develop feelings for a guy that didn’t think I was worth even the effort of planning a date for themselves.
But Ive always wondered WHY do women hate that a man is thoughtful? Do they subconsciously need to feel controlled and stabilized? Do they have no real interests of their own that they would rather bandwagon on the guy’s interests, and then from there go with the guy who’s interests and life they like the most? Or do they just perceive kindness for total weakness? Is picking what you’d like to do and having your own hobbies really “doing all the work in a relationship?”
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Xantippe
Guest
Well, if you have no opinions and no separate interests, it means you have nothing to contribute.
As some marriage expert says, “If you’re exactly the same, one of you is unnecessary.” I can figure out where I want to go by myself just fine, thankyouverymuch.
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Thorns
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How is a person who places another person before themself indicative of a person not having their own interests? I’d let them choose first and I didn’t plan on it being one sided all the time, but usually after giving them that freedom and thought once was apparently big enough of a turn off that I never ended up getting to go out with them again.
(Ironically, they ended up choosing assertive, dominant guys who called all the shots to marry. Their prime complaint later became, “He doesn’t let me do anything!”)
Besides, that was actually my point too. If a girl just wants to be babied, lead, told what to do, borrow someone else’s interests and almost live off another persons’ happiness, she basically has nothing to contribute. It sounds actually like the guy would be the one doing all the work.
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pianistclare
Guest
Maybe a good thread topic would be:
Where and how to avoid all the awful women I’ve met so far in my life.
Seriously…guys would be offended if I started a thread saying that all men were unreasonable, unfeeling, and clueless jerks.
But guys love to say how misunderstood they are by all women they’ve ever met.
How can that be?
Most of the posters here sound ok…except for the ones who won’t ask a girl out…I mean, there’s a bare minimum effort, ya know?
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Thorns
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I think both men and women misunderstand each other. I don’t know why it has to be that way.Maybe a good thread topic would be:
Where and how to avoid all the awful women I’ve met so far in my life.
Seriously…guys would be offended if I started a thread saying that all men were unreasonable, unfeeling, and clueless jerks.
But guys love to say how misunderstood they are by all women they’ve ever met.
How can that be?
Most of the posters here sound ok…except for the ones who won’t ask a girl out…I mean, there’s a bare minimum effort, ya know?
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Planning a first date is “controlling” and makes a woman feel “stabilized”? If a woman wants the man who asked her out to plan the date it’s because she has no interests of her own?Here’s the deal-when you ask a woman out and then go “So what do you want to do?” you are telling her that you like her, but just not enough to have thought this through. When you say “Would you like to do dinner with me this weekend?” it sounds like it’s something that you actually want to do. If you want to be thoughtful, how about “Would you like to do dinner with me this weekend? Great! How do you feel about seafood? I know a great place.” If there’s something wrong with seafood, she’ll say something and you can do Italian.
My husband picked our first date. I can assure you that I have many interests of my own. But he asked me out, so he needed to have something in mind. He took me out for a great date, and at the end of it, he asked what my idea of a good second date would be. I suggested my favorite coffee place, and we went there the next time. See how the back and forth works?
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Thorns
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Well, I said I used to make that apparent mistake years ago, but it wasnt for the reasons that you or other have misunderstood. I no longer do that and I have found that women respond much better being told what the game plan is rather than asking for their (name removed by moderator)ut, at least initially.
Here’s the deal-when you ask a woman out and then go “So what do you want to do?” you are telling her that you like her, but just not enough to have thought this through. When you say “Would you like to do dinner with me this weekend?” it sounds like it’s something that you actually want to do. If you want to be thoughtful, how about “Would you like to do dinner with me this weekend? Great! How do you feel about seafood? I know a great place.” If there’s something wrong with seafood, she’ll say something and you can do Italian.
My husband picked our first date. I can assure you that I have many interests of my own. But he asked me out, so he needed to have something in mind. He took me out for a great date, and at the end of it, he asked what my idea of a good second date would be. I suggested my favorite coffee place, and we went there the next time. See how the back and forth works?
Also, I didnt assert that about a woman needing to feel stability or having no interests, I asked if those were possibilities. That kind of behavior gives off that kind of impression sometimes.
And I agree about back and forth. It should never only be one sided. Unfortunately the mistake was letting them go first. Some of the times I’d share ideas of what we could do but I’d also say, “If there’s something else you’d like to do, we can always to that instead too.” Apparently that was a big No-No. But as I observed, they ended up choosing macho man types who called all the shots (and mistook Controlling for Confidence, just as they mistook Kindess for Weakness), which is seemingly what they wanted, only to gripe later on that “He’s always telling me what to do.” I know that extreme isnt always the case, but misjudging an entire person based on a faulty perception obviously has its consequences too.
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Xantippe
Guest
Yes!
Here’s the deal-when you ask a woman out and then go “So what do you want to do?” you are telling her that you like her, but just not enough to have thought this through. When you say “Would you like to do dinner with me this weekend?” it sounds like it’s something that you actually want to do. If you want to be thoughtful, how about “Would you like to do dinner with me this weekend? Great! How do you feel about seafood? I know a great place.” If there’s something wrong with seafood, she’ll say something and you can do Italian.
My husband picked our first date. I can assure you that I have many interests of my own. But he asked me out, so he needed to have something in mind. He took me out for a great date, and at the end of it, he asked what my idea of a good second date would be. I suggested my favorite coffee place, and we went there the next time. See how the back and forth works?
If it helps, don’t think of it as a “date,” just think of it as hospitality. You are the host, you make plans, you ask if your prospective guest is interested in joining you. Planning and proposing get-togethers is an important life skill. It’s a way to demonstrate thoughtfulness and care for other people. For example, now that I have a bunch of kids, one of my big responsibilities is managing the kids’ social life. There’s a family with kids the same age as our two oldest. They happen to be poorer than ourselves and don’t get season passes to the water park (but we do). We happen to have exactly 4 buddy passes to the water park. So, I just sent an email today to the mom, proposing a joint family outing on either of two days and mentioning the buddy passes. She responded favorably, but is working out the scheduling. We may possibly wind up taking them out for an inexpensive dinner. At some point, we’ll probably get an invitation from them to a birthday party or some other outing.
Dating follows roughly the same play book–the host plans, invites and pays. I would strongly suggest that all of you single guys who struggle with this stuff pick up an etiquette book and commit the sections on hospitality and dating to heart–this is really important stuff. (I may have mentioned in this thread that Miss Manner’s Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior is really good.)
There are many problems with being the “Wanna hang out sometime?” kind of suitor. 1) It doesn’t sound like an actual date. 2) It doesn’t sound like you’ve put any thought into figuring out what she or any other sentient lifeform might enjoy. 3) Since you are paying, it’s wiser to plan the event so that it’s something you can afford, rather than accidentally winding up at Chez Trop Cher because you didn’t bother to make a plan. Also, asking her to think up something puts her in an uncomfortable position, because she doesn’t know your budget, so she might accidentally aim too high or too low. 4) It leads the young lady to expect that if she should marry you, she can expect a lifetime of making all decisions alone and unsupported and never getting a gift that she didn’t choose and order herself.
(Note: While the host does pay, it’s eventually normal (as a relationship gets more serious) for the couple to start taking turns paying. Again, read some etiquette books.)
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WilT
Guest
Thanks for the great advice and reminder 
xantippe
xantippe- Status