A pep talk for single guys

[WilT]

Xantippe:
Hi Xantippe, I meant to comment on a past post but I couldn’t find it. I would like your perspective on 1st and 2nd date. One poster said not to go overboard with saying too much on the first few dates. I’ve noticed myself on the 1st few dates there is lot’s of quiet time and that I feel not only makes me uncomfortable but I believe it may make her uncomfortable as well. Am I correct in thinking so? Is it suppose to be uncomfortable and what kind of conversation can you without saying too much? Thanx

 

[chevalier]

Chevalier,

The article is largely addressed to the kind of guy we see a lot around here, whose method of courtship is just to lurk in close proximity to the women he is interested in. He gets upset that they don’t ever notice him and that they seem to go for bad guys (i.e. guys who can open their mouths and audibly speak to women and ask them out).

For more information try googling “problem with nice guys.”

Sorry, I was being a jerk and my reply was biased. At the least I should’ve worded it more charitably. I do mean what I said, but the style and the motivation for posting was poor.

Besides, do struggle with being a timid bachelor myself (not a particularly bad case, but still something to struggle with, even after 30).

Yes–a lot of people don’t get this. Dating is a subset of hospitality with regard to etiquette–the host pays. Hence, the host should carefully plan the event to be within their means.

It can be seen that way, though I think planning together, taking turns or going without a plan is also viable. Perhaps the more structured, disciplined and formalized approach might even be the superior one, but I’m personally a fan of some more liberty and spontaneity. And I really like reciprocation.

As for pulling chairs, helping on coats and such like, the problem these days is that it can easily be taken as trying to woo somebody. On the other hand, if you do use it with a wooing intention rather than simply being courteous, then the recipient may fail to notice your wooing and continue to think you’re being courteous with no special interest. It’s a bit like with ‘being a friend’ to someone of the opposite sex (as in always around, helpful, available etc.).

 

[chevalier]

Seriously…guys would be offended if I started a thread saying that all men were unreasonable, unfeeling, and clueless jerks.

Sometimes we are.

But guys love to say how misunderstood they are by all women they’ve ever met.
How can that be?

Perhaps men have developed a need to be understood that hadn’t been felt or noticed so much before. Cultural changes could do it. Or perhaps we’ve softened up.

Most of the posters here sound ok…except for the ones who won’t ask a girl out…I mean, there’s a bare minimum effort, ya know?

I don’t mean to be argumentative, just to try and address the problem that’s there. See, I think we can agree men need to (be able and ready to) step up, take charge, take risk, accept responsibility etc. On the other hand, many are wounded and I don’t think even those who are actually soft and timid only have themselves to blame for the state they’re in. Finally, communities used to be more uniform, homogenous, especially on the ethical side, values and so on. Today’s diversity makes things more complicated. I think it’s justified to want to know more before making big steps.

The other problem, one that’s more down to earth and less speculative, is that some women have this inclination to on the one hand push for signs or declarations of commitment, on the other hand a man looks back walking out of a previous commitment. And I think we can agree that it’s not fair to be pressured to make commitments as a precondition of just talking a little, finding out etc., then pressured to make further decisions and commitments after like 3 dates and face the stigma of a promise breaker if you want to end it. I personally find that sort of thing very hard to cope with. And you can’t really make terms for that in advance, like talk about it on the first date or something. So the many really can be put in a difficult situation.

 

[Xantippe]

Hi Xantippe, I meant to comment on a past post but I couldn’t find it. I would like your perspective on 1st and 2nd date. One poster said not to go overboard with saying too much on the first few dates. I’ve noticed myself on the 1st few dates there is lot’s of quiet time and that I feel not only makes me uncomfortable but I believe it may make her uncomfortable as well. Am I correct in thinking so? Is it suppose to be uncomfortable and what kind of conversation can you without saying too much? Thanx

Maybe make an effort to avoid too much of a “job interview” situation, face to face across a table?

I would encourage supplementing the face-to-face time with side-by-side activities. This will sound goofy, but the zoo (if you have one) makes a great date. I often see couples having a great time walking around the zoo. You could have a similar experience at a street fair or similar and then maybe do dinner once you’re warmed up? Ice skating or rollerskating at a rink is also a possibility (if you think you are both up to it). The dinner-movie combo can be kind of deadly if you don’t mix it up. A water park could be fun, too, followed by dinner.

Definitely pick up a book–there will be good ideas.

 

[WilT]

Maybe make an effort to avoid too much of a “job interview” situation, face to face across a table?

I would encourage supplementing the face-to-face time with side-by-side activities. This will sound goofy, but the zoo (if you have one) makes a great date. I often see couples having a great time walking around the zoo. You could have a similar experience at a street fair or similar and then maybe do dinner once you’re warmed up? Ice skating or rollerskating at a rink is also a possibility (if you think you are both up to it). The dinner-movie combo can be kind of deadly if you don’t mix it up. A water park could be fun, too, followed by dinner.

Definitely pick up a book–there will be good ideas.

so more of the serious meal and movie is out. In with fun and goofy. I can do that lol.:whacky::juggle::doh2:

 

[CaliLobo]

Xantippe:

A water park could be fun, too, followed by dinner.

More of a second date than a first date. In fact, this is a great gauge of her interest level. But make sure you get indicators of interest first, and if there are doubts, the key is to say, “You can wear something modest; I don’t care what you look like.”

Anywhere that exhibits animals for cheap or free (like the National Zoo in DC, which happens to be across the street from a Starbucks) is a great first date.

Any date that helps you learn more about each other is a great date. How squeamish is she? How open and curious about the world is she?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The dinner-movie combo can be kind of deadly if you don’t mix it up.

My mom gave me this piece of advice when I was a teenager and just starting to date, and it has never failed me: Dinner and a movie is a great idea, but do the movie first. That way, you at least know that you have the movie to discuss over dinner.

Always worked for me. And of course, when talking about the movie it reminds you of things you’ve done, places you’ve gone, etc and you start sharing real stories and experiences.

 

[pianistclare]

My head hurts from reading all these posts.
Men want an explanation, and a prescription that will work.
No such thing.
As Xan posts, there are plenty of books written and sites available to tell you what WON’T work, fairly universally, because bad form is bad form.
But honestly. There’s no replacement for getting out to places where you MIGHT meet some interesting women. If you get a chance, you ask them out. Maybe she says yes, maybe she says no.
That’s it. Seriously, that’s it.
No one can guarantee you anything. It’s not like perfecting your golf swing. It’s not like shopping for a car. It’s not like passing the bar exam.
It’s life, and if you are not overly odd, or mean, or vain, or stupid…there’s a woman out there for you. It works both ways: men dislike nasty, vain, cruel and stupid women.
You up your odds by being social and kind and friendly and witty and charming and principled.
Looks doesn’t factor in that much, although hygiene does. Basically, everything you learned in kindergarten still applies. Girls don’t like boys with cooties.
Be genuine. How many times do we hear guys say “I can’t stand fake women.” They want someone to be real. Genuine. It works both ways.
You can make it hard. Yes you can. You can make it real hard on yourself.

I get that guys are frustrated. But everyone gets frustrated. It’s not just a “guy” thing.

Me? I’m short, chubby, old, occasionally grumpy, and witty.
My hubby? Tall, pale, bald, younger, painfully shy, and witty.
I think he’s the shizznit, and amazing.
He thinks I’m the answer to his prayers and gorgeous. (ok, well he might have poor eyesight.)
Nobody much was ever interested in either of us. But we are crazy in love with each other. It happens.

I imagine it happens like this with many couples. You meet someone, and it clicks.
I wish everyone on this thread the best of luck in finding their true love.
But overthinking it won’t hurry up the process.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

In the old days, there was a lot more meetings, dates and marriages resulting from social circles intersecting or expanding. My parents were set up on a blind date by a close friend of my father’s, for instance. But the two of them had traveled in similar circles in close geographic proximity for several years by the time they met. So close in fact that they figured out many years later that they had met informally a year before they were actually introduced.

That sort of thing is mostly absent now as the social circles today’s children grow up in do not encourage meeting to marry, do not implicitly have marriage as a goal. Couple that with the today’s culture, and it’s a difficult environment for most men and chaste women alike.

My take for men is simple: It’s easy to rail against the culture, I should know I’ve done it too. but it’s easier to change your own attitude than it is to change society. That said, a man can never afford to lose sight of the difference between “being in the world, but not of it” and “being of the world as well as in it”, especially where women are concerned.

Do not let that difficult environment be an excuse to stay in the house. I still ask for a phone number once in awhile, I plan the first date, I have no problem picking up the tab, but I refuse to spend much money on it. So no fancy dinner and a show. Because that isn’t what the date is about for me, it’s about seeing what kind of person she is and whether I want to spend more time with her. I usually pick low-cost or no-cost activities I like to do with some fun element in them. My faith in God serves as the rock in my life. So women come and go? I don’t worry about it, I turn that over to Him and I move on.

 

[WilT]

My head hurts from reading all these posts.
Men want an explanation, and a prescription that will work.
No such thing.

lol your not helping too much here pianistclare!:hypno::banghead:

 

[pianistclare]

lol your not helping too much here pianistclare!:hypno::banghead:

What? Women DO like guys with cooties?
LOL
That’s a new one…

 

[WilT]

What? Women DO like guys with cooties?
LOL
That’s a new one…

hahaha your to quick on the draw! lol.

 

[Xantippe]

My mom gave me this piece of advice when I was a teenager and just starting to date, and it has never failed me: Dinner and a movie is a great idea, but do the movie first. That way, you at least know that you have the movie to discuss over dinner.

**Your mom is brilliant!

One of my first dates with my husband (possibly even the first), we went to a Russian language movie (Burnt by the Sun) in which pretty much all the main characters die in the end, including a guy who exsanguinates himself in a bathtub. Oops!**

 

[Xantippe]

My head hurts from reading all these posts.
Men want an explanation, and a prescription that will work.
No such thing.
As Xan posts, there are plenty of books written and sites available to tell you what WON’T work, fairly universally, because bad form is bad form.
But honestly. There’s no replacement for getting out to places where you MIGHT meet some interesting women. If you get a chance, you ask them out. Maybe she says yes, maybe she says no.
That’s it. Seriously, that’s it.
No one can guarantee you anything. It’s not like perfecting your golf swing. It’s not like shopping for a car. It’s not like passing the bar exam.
It’s life, and if you are not overly odd, or mean, or vain, or stupid…there’s a woman out there for you. It works both ways: men dislike nasty, vain, cruel and stupid women.
You up your odds by being social and kind and friendly and witty and charming and principled.
Looks doesn’t factor in that much, although hygiene does. Basically, everything you learned in kindergarten still applies. Girls don’t like boys with cooties.
Be genuine. How many times do we hear guys say “I can’t stand fake women.” They want someone to be real. Genuine. It works both ways.
You can make it hard. Yes you can. You can make it real hard on yourself.

I get that guys are frustrated. But everyone gets frustrated. It’s not just a “guy” thing.

Me? I’m short, chubby, old, occasionally grumpy, and witty.
My hubby? Tall, pale, bald, younger, painfully shy, and witty.
I think he’s the shizznit, and amazing.
He thinks I’m the answer to his prayers and gorgeous. (ok, well he might have poor eyesight.)
Nobody much was ever interested in either of us. But we are crazy in love with each other. It happens.

I imagine it happens like this with many couples. You meet someone, and it clicks.
I wish everyone on this thread the best of luck in finding their true love.
But overthinking it won’t hurry up the process.

Yes!

 

[Xantippe]

In the old days, there was a lot more meetings, dates and marriages resulting from social circles intersecting or expanding. My parents were set up on a blind date by a close friend of my father’s, for instance. But the two of them had traveled in similar circles in close geographic proximity for several years by the time they met. So close in fact that they figured out many years later that they had met informally a year before they were actually introduced.

That sort of thing is mostly absent now as the social circles today’s children grow up in do not encourage meeting to marry, do not implicitly have marriage as a goal. Couple that with the today’s culture, and it’s a difficult environment for most men and chaste women alike.

**What modern people have going for them is we have college, graduate school, the work place and the internet to broaden our horizons, plus high mobility and the possibility for cheap travel. In the good old days, sure you’d be thrown together with the same people over and over again, but what if you didn’t like anybody in that small pool? I shudder to think how I’d have done if I’d stayed in my home town. I remember as a teen thinking about local options and realizing that I was closely related to all of the presentable men I knew.
**

Do not let that difficult environment be an excuse to stay in the house. I still ask for a phone number once in awhile, I plan the first date, I have no problem picking up the tab, but I refuse to spend much money on it. So no fancy dinner and a show.

**Define “fancy dinner.” Remember, a lot of women are committed salad eaters, dieters or vegetarians, so your “fancy dinner” is not necessarily something they even want to eat. Also, a lot of good ethnic places are relatively inexpensive and have a nice ambience. I for one love a good Indian lunch buffet–they’re generally both inexpensive and beautifully decorated. I’m a salad eater myself these days, and Panera’s is a great place for that sort of thing and quite reasonable.

Waiting on expensive entertainment is a good idea, especially if you don’t know her tastes. I may or may not have mentioned in this thread my divorced male friend’s story of taking a woman to a Shakespeare play who allegedly loved theater. That was definitely a waste of a ticket (for him) and three hours (for her), but I’m pretty sure that they both could have been spared that had there been a little more communication beforehand.
**

Because that isn’t what the date is about for me, it’s about seeing what kind of person she is and whether I want to spend more time with her. I usually pick low-cost or no-cost activities I like to do with some fun element in them. My faith in God serves as the rock in my life. So women come and go? I don’t worry about it, I turn that over to Him and I move on.

Don’t to forget to feed the poor girl something. As I’ve quoted Judith Martin to you before, a successful date involves 1) food 2) entertainment and 3) affection. Judith Martin (that’s Miss Manners) says that the process should start with the merest suggestion of affection, but that as the relationship progresses, eventually the affection becomes the entertainment. Martin says never, never omit the food. (Oh, and the woman should eventually start inviting you out or inviting you over for dinner.) I remember you found that a little shocking last time I quoted it, but I the general formula is sound. It’s very important to remember that when we are a host, we feed our guest.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t even host a playdate without making sure I have something edible to offer the moms and kids.

Food is very important both practically (to keep mood and energy up) and symbolically (because it signifies your care and consideration for your guest).

 

[ack]

Yeah.

A lot of people (especially atypical people) do better dating and marrying foreigners. And of course there are a lot of special issues there–you have to have a fairly high level of willingness to deal with alien behavior. The stuff that will be adorably exotic when you’re just getting to know each other will be a big pain in the neck once your are married and have kids. Also, you need to know the other culture and the other individual well enough to understand what behavior is cultural and which is unique to the individual.

You touched on a lot of important issues there.

Although I am single, I have found myself attracted to women from other cultures in the past. Although it never worked out (for reasons which may or may not be related to the foreignness), I’m wondering how well I ever really knew any of those women.

We can usually sense when someone from our own country is “off” for some reason – it’s not hard to sense signs of narcissism, emotional instability, shallowness, irritability, immaturity, or unawareness/lack of willingness to follow social norms. Yet, it always seems like most of the foreigners that I meet curiously lack these negative traits. I am slowly realizing that the unconscious “machinery” that we have for quickly judging peoples’ personalities simply doesn’t work very well with foreign cultures. There was probably a lot about them which I simply couldn’t perceive.

I can see how this would benefit someone who has some personality issues that would usually repel potential partners. Of course, it’s possible (or even likely) that their foreign partner has imperceptible issues of their own. I’m not saying that all foreign couplings are like this – I’ve seen some that clearly aren’t – but I’ve also seen some where this dynamic is at play.

I suppose that the worst traits will reveal themselves over the course of the relationships, when the partners observe each other in action. The trivial annoyances might never be perceived, but is that actually a good thing – two people focusing more on the substance of their relationship than their subjective attractiveness?

On the other hand, I’m thinking of a recent thread on this forum where a foreign husband ended up behaving terribly. (Entitled “Nightmare marriage to Asperger’s spouse” or similar, although it sounded more like NPD to me, and most of the thread was an argument over its title…) To me, what stood out is that the husband and wife were from different countries, and the wife felt like she knew nothing of her husband’s true personality before they were married. If the man was from the same culture, she may have sensed some kind of incongruity that raised red flags.

 

[ack]

Your mom is brilliant!

One of my first dates with my husband (possibly even the first), we went to a Russian language movie (Burnt by the Sun) in which pretty much all the main characters die in the end, including a guy who exsanguinates himself in a bathtub. Oops!

You mean to tell me that a decade ago, choosing Dr. Strangelove for a first date was a bad move on my part?

 

[Xantippe]

You touched on a lot of important issues there.

Although I am single, I have found myself attracted to women from other cultures in the past. Although it never worked out (for reasons which may or may not be related to the foreignness), I’m wondering how well I ever really knew any of those women.

**If it’s the only person from that culture you know, and you don’t know the culture, probably not.

I was a Peace Corps Volunteer in Russia, and one of the “aha!” moments for me was the point (a year or so in) where I went from just noticing the similarities in Russians and started to be able to see what differences made an individual unique. **

We can usually sense when someone from our own country is “off” for some reason – it’s not hard to sense signs of narcissism, emotional instability, shallowness, irritability, immaturity, or unawareness/lack of willingness to follow social norms. Yet, it always seems like most of the foreigners that I meet curiously lack these negative traits. I am slowly realizing that the unconscious “machinery” that we have for quickly judging peoples’ personalities simply doesn’t work very well with foreign cultures. There was probably a lot about them which I simply couldn’t perceive.

I can see how this would benefit someone who has some personality issues that would usually repel potential partners. Of course, it’s possible (or even likely) that their foreign partner has imperceptible issues of their own. I’m not saying that all foreign couplings are like this – I’ve seen some that clearly aren’t – but I’ve also seen some where this dynamic is at play.

I suppose that the worst traits will reveal themselves over the course of the relationships, when the partners observe each other in action. The trivial annoyances might never be perceived, but is that actually a good thing – two people focusing more on the substance of their relationship than their subjective attractiveness?

On the other hand, I’m thinking of a recent thread on this forum where a foreign husband ended up behaving terribly. (Entitled “Nightmare marriage to Asperger’s spouse” or similar, although it sounded more like NPD to me, and most of the thread was an argument over its title…) To me, what stood out is that the husband and wife were from different countries, and the wife felt like she knew nothing of her husband’s true personality before they were married. If the man was from the same culture, she may have sensed some kind of incongruity that raised red flags.

Right. I was on that thread recommending the book “Alone Together: Making an Asperger Marriage Work” where there’s an initially very rocky marriage between a Swiss woman and an undiagnosed high-functioning Australian man with Aspergers. High-functioning autism is one of my interests, and one thing that pops up in books on the subject (for instance in Tony Attwood’s excellent “Complete Guide to Aspergers”) is that it is not unlikely that if an autistic person marries, it will be somebody from a different culture. On the one hand, the cultural differences may mask neurological differences, but on the other hand, a person who is willing to marry somebody from another culture may be particularly flexible and willing to deal with difference.

I’ve actually been wondering about whether there isn’t a point of convergence between very high-functioning, well-camouflaged Asperger’s and NPD. It isn’t the same thing obviously, but there might be a slight overlap for particular individuals.

 

[pensmama87]

Right. I was on that thread recommending the book “Alone Together: Making an Asperger Marriage Work” where there’s an initially very rocky marriage between a Swiss woman and an undiagnosed high-functioning Australian man with Aspergers. High-functioning autism is one of my interests, and one thing that pops up in books on the subject (for instance in Tony Attwood’s excellent “Complete Guide to Aspergers”) is that it is not unlikely that if an autistic person marries, it will be somebody from a different culture. On the one hand, the cultural differences may mask neurological differences, but on the other hand, a person who is willing to marry somebody from another culture may be particularly flexible and willing to deal with difference.

**I’ve actually been wondering about whether there isn’t a point of convergence between very high-functioning, well-camouflaged Asperger’s and NPD. ** It isn’t the same thing obviously, but there might be a slight overlap for particular individuals.

I wonder that about my husband sometimes. I had concluded (though of course I’m not an expert) that he couldn’t be on the autism spectrum because he’s just so obviously extraverted, but he has a lot of the other signs. With his extraversion, those signs point to NPD, but his response to my putting my foot down on a few things is not typically how people with NPD react.

It doesn’t really matter to me because we’ve learned how to live with it, but when I didn’t know how to I really wanted a label so I could stop feeling like I was crazy and imagining stuff.

While we are not from different cultures, we did have drastically different upbringings. Initially, I pinned a lot of what he did onto what I called “only child syndrome.” (Not to insult any only children out there, but it helped me get why he was so darn finicky about his things and simultaneously didn’t think cleaning up messes he made was a big deal. )