A pep talk for single guys

[Zzyzx_Road]

What modern people have going for them is we have college, graduate school, the work place and the internet to broaden our horizons, plus high mobility and the possibility for cheap travel. In the good old days, sure you’d be thrown together with the same people over and over again, but what if you didn’t like anybody in that small pool? I shudder to think how I’d have done if I’d stayed in my home town. I remember as a teen thinking about local options and realizing that I was closely related to all of the presentable men I knew.

The problem there is that with today’s deemphasis on early marriage, very, very few people have marriage in their sights during their college days. Yet that is usually the last place that many people will have such a large pool to select from with respect to social circles. After college, social circles tend to be much more limited for most of us and it takes a lot more effort to look beyond our limited social circles. Hence the threads on CAF from frustrated men and women wondering where to go, how to meet like-minded persons of the opposite sex for dating and marriage.

Define “fancy dinner.” Remember, a lot of women are committed salad eaters, dieters or vegetarians, so your “fancy dinner” is not necessarily something they even want to eat. Also, a lot of good ethnic places are relatively inexpensive and have a nice ambience. I for one love a good Indian lunch buffet–they’re generally both inexpensive and beautifully decorated. I’m a salad eater myself these days, and Panera’s is a great place for that sort of thing and quite reasonable.

Have you priced salad dishes at Applebee’s and Cracker Barrel lately? Heck, my favorite local Chinese restaurant is expensive! I prefer a neighborhood dive bar for a round with darts. Or the Starbucks if meeting during the day. If the girl does not like that she wasn’t taken someplace better, that’s on her, not my problem. Other first dates have been hikes (bring our own snacks for enjoying the view at the top), museums and dancing (I know a few places with $5 covers during the week, almost always a fun evening).

Don’t to forget to feed the poor girl something. As I’ve quoted Judith Martin to you before, a successful date involves 1) food 2) entertainment and 3) affection. Judith Martin (that’s Miss Manners) says that the process should start with the merest suggestion of affection, but that as the relationship progresses, eventually the affection becomes the entertainment. Martin says never, never omit the food. (Oh, and the woman should eventually start inviting you out or inviting you over for dinner.) I remember you found that a little shocking last time I quoted it, but I the general formula is sound. It’s very important to remember that when we are a host, we feed our guest.

Within reason as you alluded to above. Which for me precludes a sit down dinner with waiters on the first few dates. I don’t have a problem spending money on someone, I just won’t do it from the get go, she needs to earn her access to my resources. More on that below.

A man has three things to offer a woman: his attention, his time and his resources. Each in order of importance from least to most. If his attention to her is rewarded with her attention to him, then he can escalate to spending time together. If that continues to be rewarding to both, then he can escalate to resources. To do resources with attention and time at the beginning is to put the cart before the horse. It is vital to distinguish between women who are interested in me versus women who are more interested in my resources and that is one of the ways I do it. If she’s not happy about that, she won’t say so, they seldom do, she will just stop returning my calls and texts. No problem, hint taken…

 

[Xantippe]

I wonder that about my husband sometimes. I had concluded (though of course I’m not an expert) that he couldn’t be on the autism spectrum because he’s just so obviously extraverted, but he has a lot of the other signs. With his extraversion, those signs point to NPD, but his response to my putting my foot down on a few things is not typically how people with NPD react.

It doesn’t really matter to me because we’ve learned how to live with it, but when I didn’t know how to I really wanted a label so I could stop feeling like I was crazy and imagining stuff.

While we are not from different cultures, we did have drastically different upbringings. Initially, I pinned a lot of what he did onto what I called “only child syndrome.” (Not to insult any only children out there, but it helped me get why he was so darn finicky about his things and simultaneously didn’t think cleaning up messes he made was a big deal. )

I think you might get something out of both the “Alone Together” book and Tony Attwood’s Complete Guide to Asperger Syndrome.

Best wishes!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

While we are not from different cultures, we did have drastically different upbringings. Initially, I pinned a lot of what he did onto what I called “only child syndrome.” (**Not to insult any only children out there, but it helped me get why he was so darn finicky about his things and simultaneously didn’t think cleaning up messes he made was a big deal. **)

(Bolding Mine)

My husband is one of four and he’s very finicky and never cleans up messes. (He’s also not a narcissist, nor does he have any form of autism/asperger’s.) Sometimes, the only label you can use is ‘annoying’.

 

[pensmama87]

(Bolding Mine)

My husband is one of four and he’s very finicky and never cleans up messes. (He’s also not a narcissist, nor does he have any form of autism/asperger’s.) Sometimes, the only label you can use is ‘annoying’.

There’s other things, but I know it’s not just that he was an only. My brother, actually, is the same way about that, and he is also one of four.

 

[pensmama87]

The problem there is that with today’s deemphasis on early marriage, very, very few people have marriage in their sights during their college days. Yet that is usually the last place that many people will have such a large pool to select from with respect to social circles. After college, social circles tend to be much more limited for most of us and it takes a lot more effort to look beyond our limited social circles. Hence the threads on CAF from frustrated men and women wondering where to go, how to meet like-minded persons of the opposite sex for dating and marriage.

Have you priced salad dishes at Applebee’s and Cracker Barrel lately? Heck, my favorite local Chinese restaurant is expensive! I prefer a neighborhood dive bar for a round with darts. Or the Starbucks if meeting during the day. If the girl does not like that she wasn’t taken someplace better, that’s on her, not my problem. Other first dates have been hikes (bring our own snacks for enjoying the view at the top), museums and dancing (I know a few places with $5 covers during the week, almost always a fun evening).

Within reason as you alluded to above. Which for me precludes a sit down dinner with waiters on the first few dates. I don’t have a problem spending money on someone, I just won’t do it from the get go, she needs to earn her access to my resources. More on that below.

A man has three things to offer a woman: his attention, his time and his resources. Each in order of importance from least to most. If his attention to her is rewarded with her attention to him, then he can escalate to spending time together. If that continues to be rewarding to both, then he can escalate to resources. To do resources with attention and time at the beginning is to put the cart before the horse. It is vital to distinguish between women who are interested in me versus women who are more interested in my resources and that is one of the ways I do it. If she’s not happy about that, she won’t say so, they seldom do, she will just stop returning my calls and texts. No problem, hint taken…

But what of hospitality?

I get your reasoning, it just seems…cold. I hope it’s not that obvious to women what you are thinking on those first few dates. There’s not having a lot of money to spend and then there’s being stingy, and unfortunately as I’m reading your post it reads a lot more like the latter. More “prove to me you’re worth it” instead of “I’d like us to have a good time while we get to know each other better.”

Plus, there’s always going for an afternoon/evening stroll through the business district or local park and stopping for ice cream, or a food truck. Not as high pressure, but still very enjoyable and thoughtful, IMO.

 

[ack]

The problem there is that with today’s deemphasis on early marriage, very, very few people have marriage in their sights during their college days. Yet that is usually the last place that many people will have such a large pool to select from with respect to social circles. After college, social circles tend to be much more limited for most of us and it takes a lot more effort to look beyond our limited social circles. Hence the threads on CAF from frustrated men and women wondering where to go, how to meet like-minded persons of the opposite sex for dating and marriage.

I see the problem, but I wonder if social circles are any more limited than they’ve always been. Until fairly recently, people tended to stay in the same town for their entire lives, and going to college was not as common (especially for women). Your limited social circle as a child was likely the same limited circle you were going to have your whole life, yet people still got married. It’s been debated whether this was a good or bad thing (did people just get along better, or were they forced into relationships they didn’t want?)

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

But what of hospitality?

I get your reasoning, it just seems…cold. I hope it’s not that obvious to women what you are thinking on those first few dates. There’s not having a lot of money to spend and then there’s being stingy, and unfortunately as I’m reading your post it reads a lot more like the latter. More “prove to me you’re worth it” instead of “I’d like us to have a good time while we get to know each other better.”

Plus, there’s always going for an afternoon/evening stroll through the business district or local park and stopping for ice cream, or a food truck. Not as high pressure, but still very enjoyable and thoughtful, IMO.

Not cold at all. First dates for me are about having a good time with her. What’s not hospitable about that? You’ll notice that what I plan and host for first dates involve activities that I like to do. My point is that it is not necessary to spend money to have fun.

 

[Xantippe]

But what of hospitality?

I get your reasoning, it just seems…cold. I hope it’s not that obvious to women what you are thinking on those first few dates. There’s not having a lot of money to spend and then there’s being stingy, and unfortunately as I’m reading your post it reads a lot more like the latter. More “prove to me you’re worth it” instead of “I’d like us to have a good time while we get to know each other better.”

Plus, there’s always going for an afternoon/evening stroll through the business district or local park and stopping for ice cream, or a food truck. Not as high pressure, but still very enjoyable and thoughtful, IMO.

Yes!

And remember, you get extra points for being familiar with the nicer budget options. When we were courting, my future husband took me to a number of cheap little Asian noodle places and other cheap ethnic places (Middle Eastern, Indian, etc.). (He spent some of his formative years in one of the big West Coast cities with large Asian populations.) I had pad thai for the first time with him and loved it. You do not get those kind of points for taking a woman to Applebees.

(We eventually started doing stir fry, curries, and Asian dishes at home on occasion and today, it’s a huge component of our family cousine.)

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yes!

And remember, you get extra points for being familiar with the nicer budget options. When we were courting, my future husband took me to a number of cheap little Asian noodle places and other cheap ethnic places (Middle Eastern, Indian, etc.). (He spent some of his formative years in one of the big West Coast cities with large Asian populations.) I had pad thai for the first time with him and loved it. You do not get those kind of points for taking a woman to Applebees.

(We eventually started doing stir fry, curries, and Asian dishes at home on occasion and today, it’s a huge component of our family cousine.)

You and your husband sound like you would be an awesome couple friend of me and my husband.

 

[Xantippe]

The problem there is that with today’s deemphasis on early marriage, very, very few people have marriage in their sights during their college days. Yet that is usually the last place that many people will have such a large pool to select from with respect to social circles. After college, social circles tend to be much more limited for most of us and it takes a lot more effort to look beyond our limited social circles. Hence the threads on CAF from frustrated men and women wondering where to go, how to meet like-minded persons of the opposite sex for dating and marriage.

**I’ve gotten a little down on the college-graduation-followed-by-wedding model, because I feel that it’s really important to see that your sweetie can function in the real world, can support themselves, and can maintain a small home that does not look or smell like a landfill.
**

**My parents married in college, and while I’m glad they did and they are happy in their own way some 44 years later, I think my mom would have been well-served by a year or two of independent living before getting married. My mom has gotten much better, but there were many years where her approach to finances was very childish. **

Have you priced salad dishes at Applebee’s and Cracker Barrel lately? Heck, my favorite local Chinese restaurant is expensive! I prefer a neighborhood dive bar for a round with darts. Or the Starbucks if meeting during the day. If the girl does not like that she wasn’t taken someplace better, that’s on her, not my problem. Other first dates have been hikes (bring our own snacks for enjoying the view at the top), museums and dancing (I know a few places with $5 covers during the week, almost always a fun evening).

**Applebees, Cracker Barrel and Starbucks are all very expensive for what you get. Also, some of the “casual dining” chains put cups of cheese on everything and are very calorific. I recently looked up the salad I used to get at Chilis, only to discover it has 1,300 calories. Any of your more health conscious lady friends won’t want to go to that sort of place and would think less of you for thinking of it as an option.

I’d suggest you work a little harder on figuring out inexpensive and interesting dining options. You could easily spend an extra $5 apiece and avoid looking stingy and selfish–an extra $5 could cover an actual nutritious meal rather than a sugary snack. (I’m a bit of an expert on how much things cost–our family of 5 typically spends around $40 at Panera’s, so let’s figure around $10 each. It’s hard to get out of Starbucks for less than $6 each–when I take three kids through the Starbucks drive thru, Dave Ramsey weeps.) Cover the difference by sticking to free or very cheap entertainment, and you’re good–you’ll give a better initial impression than by spending on entertainment and cheaping out on food. Once you get a little more serious, you can switch to home cooking and she can start taking you out, too. The first time, you can cut the awkwardness a little by inviting her to a dinner party at your home to meet some of your friends. That will also make a good impression.**

**Women with stingy and/or selfish husbands suffer a lot, so it really is important to avoid giving the impression that you would be one of those. **

**If you find yourself having too many first dates (which it sounds like is a problem for you), be a little pickier about making sure you have enough in common. If you have half as many first dates, you can afford to spend twice as much on each one.
**

Within reason as you alluded to above. Which for me precludes a sit down dinner with waiters on the first few dates. I don’t have a problem spending money on someone, I just won’t do it from the get go, she needs to earn her access to my resources. More on that below.

**“She needs to earn her access to my resources.” Huh. Having an irresistible urge to quote Jack Ripper (starting around :40).

youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0**

A man has three things to offer a woman: his attention, his time and his resources. Each in order of importance from least to most. If his attention to her is rewarded with her attention to him, then he can escalate to spending time together. If that continues to be rewarding to both, then he can escalate to resources. To do resources with attention and time at the beginning is to put the cart before the horse. It is vital to distinguish between women who are interested in me versus women who are more interested in my resources and that is one of the ways I do it. If she’s not happy about that, she won’t say so, they seldom do, she will just stop returning my calls and texts. No problem, hint taken…

As pensmama87 mentioned, there is such a thing as hospitality.

And frankly, if you can’t afford a taco truck quesadilla or food truck noodles or Gyro for a promising woman, you really can’t afford a family.

 

[Xantippe]

You and your husband sound like you would be an awesome couple friend of me and my husband.

Awww.

He also makes crepes! Huge points for that, too.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Awww.

He also makes crepes! Huge points for that, too.

!!! My hubby and I used to live just down the street from an adorable little crepes restaurant. They served everything from Nutella crepes to Indian curry crepes. When we had to move, that crepes place was the only thing I was sad about leaving behind.

Soooo…hubby dedicated himself to learning how to make crepes! Now he makes everything from Nutella crepes to Indian curry crepes! He learned in secret to surprise me on my birthday with a crepes breakfast! Now there’s nothing about our old city that I miss.

 

[Thorns]

With all these legalistic and pretentious rules for dating, it seems there isnt any room to have any genuine fun. It would probably feel like you’re being graded while taking a driving test at the DMV, with the person checking and crossing things off their list after every move you make.

I happen to agree with Zzyzx’s approach. Why should there be a need to impress someone you dont even know? I’d think engaging in something simple and fun at first is a good way to see if the two can even get along at the most basic level. After knowing them more, then the impressing might be somewhat more relevant and less desperate-looking.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

With all these legalistic and pretentious rules for dating, it seems there isnt any room to have any genuine fun. It would probably feel like you’re being graded while taking a driving test at the DMV, with the person checking and crossing things off their list after every move you make.

I happen to agree with Zzyzx’s approach. Why should there be a need to impress someone you dont even know? I’d think engaging in something simple and fun at first is a good way to see if the two can even get along at the most basic level. After knowing them more, then the impressing might be somewhat more relevant and less desperate-looking.

Those of us giving the advice are the ones that are happily married. If it doesn’t sound like fun to you, you’re certainly free to do your thing. But I’m not sure why single men take dating advice from other single men and then complain about being single. (Which I’ve noticed a lot on this site, as well as the sites the single men reference.)

But I have absolutely no problem with a simple date. My husband and I had to have our first date at 11 at night at a bar because he was taking night classes and working full time that term. That certainly wasn’t a fancy date. But he did ask me out, have a day, time and place in mind, and act like a gentleman.

 

[Thorns]

Don’t to forget to feed the poor girl something. As I’ve quoted Judith Martin to you before, a successful date involves 1) food 2) entertainment and 3) affection. Judith Martin (that’s Miss Manners) says that the process should start with the merest suggestion of affection, but that as the relationship progresses, eventually the affection becomes the entertainment. Martin says never, never omit the food. (Oh, and the woman should eventually start inviting you out or inviting you over for dinner.) I remember you found that a little shocking last time I quoted it, but I the general formula is sound. It’s very important to remember that when we are a host, we feed our guest.

For me, eating is kind of a personal thing. I am uncomfortable eating in front of people I don’t know well, not that Im sloppy or gross or anything. And a lot of times in those situations, I have no appetite. Lol.

 

[Thorns]

Those of us giving the advice are the ones that are happily married. If it doesn’t sound like fun to you, you’re certainly free to do your thing. But I’m not sure why single men take dating advice from other single men and then complain about being single. (Which I’ve noticed a lot on this site, as well as the sites the single men reference.)

But I have absolutely no problem with a simple date. My husband and I had to have our first date at 11 at night at a bar because he was taking night classes and working full time that term. That certainly wasn’t a fancy date. But he did ask me out, have a day, time and place in mind, and act like a gentleman.

I appreciate your perspective. Im not complaining about being single either, its quite a happy life with its own pros. There are just certain things I have never understood from a woman’s point of view, even though I have picked up on the Do’s and Dont’s through experience and observation.

My problem for me currently isn’t not attracting women or not getting a date, its finding a pool of quality women that is my issue apparently.

 

[Xantippe]

!!! My hubby and I used to live just down the street from an adorable little crepes restaurant. They served everything from Nutella crepes to Indian curry crepes. When we had to move, that crepes place was the only thing I was sad about leaving behind.

Soooo…hubby dedicated himself to learning how to make crepes! Now he makes everything from Nutella crepes to Indian curry crepes! He learned in secret to surprise me on my birthday with a crepes breakfast! Now there’s nothing about our old city that I miss.

Awww!

We do mostly a sweet spiced ricotta cheese filling (with cinnamon or nutmeg or similar) and pie filling (if you pay a little more for the canned stuff, you get less goo, more fruit).

That saying about, “The way to a man’s heart is through is stomach,” also applies to women.

He makes wonderful very healthy pumpkin muffins, too–great for snacks for the kids. And the chocolate version (when served with a good vanilla ice cream) makes an awesome birthday party treat.

 

[Xantippe]

Those of us giving the advice are the ones that are happily married. If it doesn’t sound like fun to you, you’re certainly free to do your thing. But I’m not sure why single men take dating advice from other single men and then complain about being single. (Which I’ve noticed a lot on this site, as well as the sites the single men reference.)

But I have absolutely no problem with a simple date. My husband and I had to have our first date at 11 at night at a bar because he was taking night classes and working full time that term. That certainly wasn’t a fancy date. But he did ask me out, have a day, time and place in mind, and act like a gentleman.

Yes!

Thorns, if you like doing things your way, fine, but don’t come crying to us when it doesn’t work for you.

 

[Xantippe]

A few more notes:

1. I forgot to mention, when my husband first started taking me out to dinner, we were both graduate students and he made no more than $14k a year and I was making about $10k a year (this was 17 years ago).
2. Learning social graces in a non-dating setting is really important. That’s what all the talk of “friendzoning” misses–friendship is really important as a social skill and it’s also a valuable training ground for learning social graces and virtue.
3. I would encourage you guys to work on your cooking skills and to start doing an occasional dinner party for a mixed gender group of friends. Learning how to be a conscientious and thoughtful host is a skill that will serve you well, not least of all in dating.
4. Women like men who know how to do stuff–even if it’s just skillfully flipping crepes.
5. Again, pick up an etiquette book and STUDY. You can get away without knowing the fork chapter exhaustively, but the stuff on being a good host and a good guest and dating is quite crucial–you will discover that we ladies have not actually been making stuff up.

 

[Thorns]

Yes!

Thorns, if you like doing things your way, fine, but don’t come crying to us when it doesn’t work for you.

Ive never came crying and my way does work. I just dont meet any women of quality.