A plea to the SSPX and SSPXers

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As I said there are exceptions.

Most liberal bishop will not offer the TLM unless:
  1. They stop complaining about the liberalism or
  2. If there is no SSPX, independent chapels near by.
 
Also, it is not really clear if the SSPX is in schism.
Here is why:

The 4 SSPX bishops along withe Bishop Castro de Mayer(Co-consecrater of the SSPX Bishops) consecrated Fr. Rangel to become a Bishop for Campos Brazil. The Bishop would be a “schismatic” for this and setting up a parallel diocese. This would continue on for many years

Around the year 2001 or 2002 Bishop Rangel decided to regularise his diocese, the Bishop and priests under Bishop Rangel did not have to rehear confessions, convalidate marriages, and recieve stripends for the “illicit” masses during the alleged schism.

When a clergy is in schism, confessions and marriages are invalid, yet all who were marrried under the alleged schism have valid marriages. They did not have to give back the money they recieved from their “illicit” Masses.

As for the SSPX in schism, it is not that clear.
 
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Iohannes:
As I said there are exceptions.

Most liberal bishop will not offer the TLM unless:
  1. They stop complaining about the liberalism or
  2. If there is no SSPX, independent chapels near by.
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“Liberal” bishops?

Like Roger Mahony who allows the indult in a half dozen parishes throughout his archdiocese?
 
Iohannes said:
Like it or not, without the SSPX, the indult would not be possible, with a few exceptions, the vast majority of indults Masses are near SSPX Masses. Generally, where there is no SSPX Mass, there is no indult Mass, the liberal bishops who do not have to deal with the SSPX will not offer the indult.
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It’s too bad you cannot provide any facts to support your conjecture…
 
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bear06:
I don’t know. There’s not an SSPX chapel in the diocese and we have an indult mass thanks to a wonderful priest who waited patiently to get it. He started by getting the Novus Ordo in Latin and waited a few more years for the indult. I can still remember his telling us to stay away from those who thought one mass was better than another. We had a VERY liberal bishop at the time.
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It sounds like you have an absolutely top-notch pastor. Good for you.

P.S. Did he do the entire Novus Ordo Mass in Latin?
 
albert cipriani:
OK. Testing testing, 1, 2, 3. Which seems more reverent, doctrinally accurate, and just plain Catholic to you?
Tridenting Mass (Offering of the Host)
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**Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my countless sins, trespasses, and omissions; likewise for all here present, and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may avail both me and them to salvation, unto life everlasting. Amen.**
**Novus Ordo Mass (Offering of the Host)
**
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Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.

– Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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Now Albert is being very selective and misleading here.
First his quote from the Tridentine Mass is wrong, it should read,
**Súscipe, sancte Pater, omnípotens ætérne Deus, hanc immaculátam hóstiam, quam ego indígnus fámulus tuus óffero tibi Deo meo vivo et vero, pro innumerabílibus peccátis, et offensiónibus, et negligéntiis meis, et pro ómnibus circumstántibus, sed et pro ómnibus fidélibus christiánis vivis atque defúunctis: ut mihi et illis profíciat ad salútem in vitam ætérnam. Amen.
**
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and it falls under the section title Mass of the Faithful, Offertory (proper), in the 1962 Missal. There is no title of “Offering of the Host”.

Also his quote from the Mass is not complete, it should read,
Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.

Response: Blessed be God for ever.

Priest: By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity. Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.

Response: Blessed be God for ever.
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and again, the heading is wrong as there is no “Offering of the Host”, it is Preparation of the Altar and the Gifts.
Now this I think looks better to me for two reasons, it adds the second prayer by the priest for the wine and water as well as adding the response from the faithful.
 
Just a little reminder to everyone:

Please be sure that this thread remain on topic.
 
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Crusader:
It’s too bad you cannot provide any facts to support your conjecture…
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Crusader I would suggest you read the English historian Michael Davies to start. Then you may want to read the Indult.
 
James_2:24:
Because saying sums it up perfectly… Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi… “How we pray, is how we believe…”
…
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Thank you James2:24
Those who doubt this are deceived. We need to pray for them.
 
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Crusader:
It sounds like you have an absolutely top-notch pastor. Good for you.

P.S. Did he do the entire Novus Ordo Mass in Latin?
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Had is the word. He had to retire due to health reasons but the diocese did allow the Novus Ordo in Latin and the Tridentine to continue. I think he wanted all the orthodox in one place where he could keep an eye on them. 👍 Most of us are registered in a few parishes and do things like marriage prep, baptismal classes and even liturgy committee and parish councils. We like to infiltrate. 😉
 
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JNB:
… I love the tradityional mass, and while I am open to some changes in the missal … this is a plea to the SSPX and all associated with the SSPX. …the battle going on in the church is far bigger than the SSPX, …it is a battle that needs to be fought FULLY inside the church, wot with one step just inside the church and one step in schism.
Code: 
To bring this back to the intent of the orginator, I would like to say , I agree that the fight is bigger than the SSPX. I like the the Tridentine Mass, as well. But this fight is not - NOT - a fight that is contained merely within the church.
 I once saw a Tridentine Mass performed by a Bishop in St Patrick's Cathedral in New York City.
 I once assisted an Army Chaplain with a Tridentine Mass in the Former Yugoslavia, attended by a cluster of faithful in a garage, because they lived deep within a muslim enclave during the war years, and were risking murder, just being there.
 I once attended a Tridentine Mass of a very old priest, long retired, who died of a stroke moments after the reading of the Last Gospel.
 I have seen quite a few things, around the world, some strange, some ugly and frightening, and a few things that defy my ability to describe or explain, but I have yet to see anyone willing to put their lives and the lives of their children on the line for a Novus Ordo Mass.
  ( By the way, that mass in the Former Yugoslavia was not said in Latin, it was said in Bosnian. Everybody new EXACTLY what was being said, and the mass was perfectly valid; the Padre did his homework on the Rubrics, and permission was given from his superior. How do I know this? I did a few clerical duties for him, in addition to being his bodyguard, driver and de-facto altar boy. ) 
 This fight is in the world, as the church we love is in the world, and like it or not, the Roman Catholic Church, here on earth, past and present, is bound in its fate to this world of Men, fashioned by men's hands in their own image and likeness, to the consummation of the world, upon the earth - and may God help us all...
 And while I myself would prefer all the supporters of tradition, faith, morals and love found within the Church to be united in Christ's Peace; and together, unschismatic, collegial, and peaceful with one another, it is my observation that even two milleniums of pleas, both from human beings and Our Saviour Himself, do not change this condition that shapes even our times.
 I am not a supporter of SSPX. Neither am I a person that can go toe to toe with other,better, and more learned persons here on matters of orthodoxy, theology, philosophy, or current politics and policy.
 I do know what I have seen. I do have authority in being able to report on what I have observed. 
 So that is why I wonder why this string has descended into mere quibbling and, forgive me, cheap shots, so quickly as to completely bury the original questions and intent  of the progenitor of this string?
Prestor John
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Prester John:
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JNB:
.
To bring this back to the intent of the orginator, I would like to say , I agree that the fight is bigger than the SSPX. I like the the Tridentine Mass, as well. But this fight is not - NOT - a fight that is contained merely within the church.
I once saw a Tridentine Mass performed by a Bishop in St Patrick’s Cathedral in New York City.
I once assisted an Army Chaplain with a Tridentine Mass in the Former Yugoslavia, attended by a cluster of faithful in a garage, because they lived deep within a muslim enclave during the war years, and were risking murder, just being there.
I once attended a Tridentine Mass of a very old priest, long retired, who died of a stroke moments after the reading of the Last Gospel.
( By the way, that mass in the Former Yugoslavia was not said in Latin, it was said in Bosnian. Everybody new EXACTLY what was being said, and the mass was perfectly valid; the Padre did his homework on the Rubrics, and permission was given from his superior. How do I know this? I did a few clerical duties for him, in addition to being his bodyguard, driver and de-facto altar boy. )
This fight is in the world, as the church we love is in the world, and like it or not, the Roman Catholic Church, here on earth, past and present, is bound in its fate to this world of Men, fashioned by men’s hands in their own image and likeness, to the consummation of the world, upon the earth - and may God he
Prestor John
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Traditional Latin Mass in Bosnian? It was probably old CHurch Slavonic,because that existed preVatican II. Sorry, for the nitpicky comment.
ALSO are you a Priest?
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James_2:24:
Exactly the problem with the Charismatic movement in the Catholic Chruch :eek: Just thought i’d throw that in here :eek:
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God understands what the Holy Spirit prays through me. **

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
**
You don’t have to pray that way, but that type of prayer is available.
 
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katolik:
Traditional Latin Mass in Bosnian?
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No, the mass was actually said in “modern” Bosnian,in the Latin Tridentine Rite, so-called, for two reasons. In the first, because the Chaplain was fluent in the modern vernacular of Bosnian; and in the second, because the chaplain was granted permission under the clause found in the rubrices governing “teaching masses”, for the Rites he was ordained for . Remenber, military Chaplains, like missionary priests, have extra- ordinary priveledges, granting them extra-ordinaray authority for extra -ordinary circumstances…
Curiously, you are the first to mention the Old Slavonic!
It was not possible, either, because the Padre did not wish do bring greater distress to an already deeply troubled people with his terrible pronunciation of a language that he could understand, but not speak.

And as for your last question, aside from learning a bit of the local patois, and being more fluent in the modern written vernacular… I answer thus:

SANCTA SIMPLICITAS (O holy simplicity / O holy ignorance;choose the one you like best…)
 
I am so sick of putting up with the people who come to Mass but have no desire to really be Catholics that I am thinking of joining the SSPX. I never thought I’d say it, but I think the Vatican II church is a flop. The sexual abuse scandal was the nail in it’s coffin, we just haven’t finished the funeral yet.
 
Crusader said:
“Liberal” bishops?

Like Roger Mahony who allows the indult in a half dozen parishes throughout his archdiocese?
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Roger Mahoney offers 4 rotating indult Masses, so people have to hop from one church to another if they want to attend an indult Mass every sunday. And yes, there is an SSPX chapel in the Archdiocese of LA.
 
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Crusader:
It’s too bad you cannot provide any facts to support your conjecture…
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Here look at this:
sspx.org/chapels.htm
Then check if in their diocese if they have an indult, there is high probality that they will have an indult.

Talking about no facts, you never bring facts but only assertions to your arguments.
 
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pnewton:
Yes it is. Only the pope decides who is or is not in schism.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=3248&highlight=sspx
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=38
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=158816
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Ecclesia Dei does not say the SSPX as a group is in schism. They are disobident for sure, but schismatic, that is not clear? I gave the Campos Situation as an example. They did not have to endure any penalties during their alleged schism.

There has not been talks about marriages and confessions that will have to be reheard and convalidated. If they are schismatics, then, the confessions have to be reheard, and the marriages must be convalidated. But then why wasn’t Campos forced to rehear confesions and convalidate Marriages?
 
The premise of this proposal is too simplistic. The problems are complex, and the solutions would have to be equally multifaceted. We cannot blame our problems on the SSPX, nor can we look to them for solutions. Yes, the SSPX has the mass from the good old times, but they are every bit as unwell as the rest of us, just in different ways. You may wish to take a look at this site:

sspx-schism.com/VanderPutten1.htm
 
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