A plea to the SSPX and SSPXers

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Sorry if this has been mentioned, but how does one respond to the SSPX or any other group when they compare the things going on today to the Arian herasy?

I don’t belong to the SSPX. Never visited them either despite them being driving distance away and my diocese doesn’t offer an Indult. I agree that there are problems within Rome and in many (to say the least) parishes. But what angers me is when a Vatican aligned traditionalist (i.e. Bishop Rifan) does something good to bring tradition to the church, they snap at him for showing allegiance to Rome. If the traditional movement is going to be a force within the church, we need to be like Saint Francis and fix the church falling apart, and not try to make things further problematic. Finger pointing and name calling isn’t going to help the restoration of the TLM.
 
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Voice_Of_Reason:
Sorry if this has been mentioned, but how does one respond to the SSPX or any other group when they compare the things going on today to the Arian herasy?

I don’t belong to the SSPX. Never visited them either despite them being driving distance away and my diocese doesn’t offer an Indult. I agree that there are problems within Rome and in many (to say the least) parishes. But what angers me is when a Vatican aligned traditionalist (i.e. Bishop Rifan) does something good to bring tradition to the church, they snap at him for showing allegiance to Rome. If the traditional movement is going to be a force within the church, we need to be like Saint Francis and fix the church falling apart, and not try to make things further problematic. Finger pointing and name calling isn’t going to help the restoration of the TLM.
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Here’s an article to address the Arian heresy argument:
envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.6/lefebvre.htm

I agree with you that it’s very sad that some Traditionalists are actually thwarting the spreading of the TLM. In many cases they do more to hurt the cause than the liberal bishops! There’s always somebody out there who doesn’t think someone is Catholic enough for them and go around letting everyone know this and this is a turn off for some who are attracted to the TLM.

Heck, in our local TLM church people are not happy because the new bishop decided to keep the church in diocesan hands but he’s bringing in the Institute for Christ the King to be in charge of the TLM. People are upset FSSP and the priest with whom they are familiar with (who doesn’t say masses at this parish) won’t be taking over the parish. They’re also already complaining about the new pastor who won’t even be saying the TLM. Forget the fact that they’ll probably be having a daily TLM, it’s not good enough. This is a real turn off for many.
 
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ByzCath:
just because some saints may have been excommunicated in the past and some may have been in schism in the past does not mean that those who are excommunicated today and in schism today will be vindicated and returned to the fold at some future date.
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Duh. That’s like saying just because people have always been mortal doesn’t mean that people today might not be immortal.

I’ll make it even simpler for you. Evil people have entered into schism and been excommunicated from the Chruch. Saints have entered into schism and been excommunicated from the Church. Ergo, excommunication and schism is not a factor in determining whether or not people are doing what is evil or saintly. Do you get that? – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/
 
albert cipriani:
Duh. That’s like saying just because people have always been mortal doesn’t mean that people today might not be immortal.

I’ll make it even simpler for you. Evil people have entered into schism and been excommunicated from the Chruch. Saints have entered into schism and been excommunicated from the Church. Ergo, excommunication and schism is not a factor in determining whether or not people are doing what is evil or saintly. Do you get that? – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
[groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/](Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos)
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I do not understand the “Duh” and “Do you get that.”

Saints have entered in and out of schism, heresy and sin. The fact that some one ends up a saint does not in any way validate everything they did at all points in their life.

By the same token we should never judge a schismatic to be evil for that reason alone. They are merely outside the Church for that time. That is a serious enough problem.
 
While I would agree it would be helpful if the various traditionalist groups would come back to Rome, I can understand why they are so cautious and want to keep their distance. Just when it looked like the U.S. bishops might be moving in a more orthodox direction, they go and elect Bishop Donald Trautman (Erie, PA) as the head of their liturgy committee to replace Francis Cardinal George who ended his term. Trautman was not even a regular nominee; he was nominated from the floor. When I saw this, my first thought was that the bishops have declared war on the Vatican. Trautman is an ultra-liberal when it comes to liturgical translations, and his selection does not bode well for orthodox Catholics. If I were a member of the SSPX, I think I would want to wait to see who the next pope will be before deciding whether or not to return to communion with Rome. I’d want to know if the next pope will be willing to let the American bishops know who’s in charge in no uncertain terms.
 
What I was wondering is why do the SSPX have problems with Rome, but groups like The Institute of Christ the King do not? The Institute has the full backing of Rome and do not compromise or mix rites. They only offer the Tridentine Mass and also the sacraments in the Tridentine tradition. What is stopping the SSPX from operating like that?
 
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pnewton:
I do not understand the “Duh” and “Do you get that.”
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The “duh” and “do you get that” are expressions of my exasperation at not being understood. The rest of your post is proof that my exasperation is well founded. You guys just don’t get it.
Saints have entered in and out of schism, heresy and sin. The fact that some one ends up a saint does not in any way validate everything they did at all points in their life.
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Says who???!!! The corupt Catholic bishops at the time of the saint’s persecution? Or do you mean to imply that sin is like a quantum particle, now you see it now you don’t, it’s all relative to your perspective. If you were living at the time the corrupt bishops declared St. Athanasius a heretic and excommunicated him, well then he was those things. And now that saner bishops prevail St. Athanasius was not those things. Is that the relativistic view of sin you mean to expound?
By the same token we should never judge a schismatic to be evil for that reason alone. They are merely outside the Church for that time. That is a serious enough problem.
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So St. Joan of Arc was outside the Catholic Church during the most important moment of her life, during the time of her martyrdom at the hands of evil Catholic bishops? But now that that pivotal moment when she could have slipped into the sin of despair is over, now that the earthbound Church can be of no spiritual help or hinderance to her, that’s the time in which she’s IN the Church? How absurd. – Sincerely Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/
 
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IrenkaJMJ:
What I was wondering is why do the SSPX have problems with Rome, but groups like The Institute of Christ the King do not? The Institute has the full backing of Rome and do not compromise or mix rites. They only offer the Tridentine Mass and also the sacraments in the Tridentine tradition. What is stopping the SSPX from operating like that?
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Because, not only did the Mass change after Vatican II. The SSPX is fitting against the blatant liberal theology,thought of as Catholic theology now, and the NO Mass. Many priests in the ICKSP and FSSP are now known to have opinions similar to the SSPX, but have been silenced.
 
albert cipriani:
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pnewton:
I do not understand the “Duh” and “Do you get that.”
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The “duh” and “do you get that” are expressions of my exasperation at not being understood. The rest of your post is proof that my exasperation is well founded. You guys just don’t get it.
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Actually I took this as a classless attack, an attempt to show how “intelligent” you are.
Saints have entered in and out of schism, heresy and sin. The fact that some one ends up a saint does not in any way validate everything they did at all points in their life.
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Says who???!!! The corupt Catholic bishops at the time of the saint’s persecution? Or do you mean to imply that sin is like a quantum particle, now you see it now you don’t, it’s all relative to your perspective. If you were living at the time the corrupt bishops declared St. Athanasius a heretic and excommunicated him, well then he was those things. And now that saner bishops prevail St. Athanasius was not those things. Is that the relativistic view of sin you mean to expound?
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So if we take this comment, then you think the Holy Father and the Vatican are corupt as they have ruled that the SSPX is in schism and its bishops are excommunicated.
By the same token we should never judge a schismatic to be evil for that reason alone. They are merely outside the Church for that time. That is a serious enough problem.
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So St. Joan of Arc was outside the Catholic Church during the most important moment of her life, during the time of her martyrdom at the hands of evil Catholic bishops? But now that that pivotal moment when she could have slipped into the sin of despair is over, now that the earthbound Church can be of no spiritual help or hinderance to her, that’s the time in which she’s IN the Church? How absurd. – Sincerely Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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I guess you can not understand why I take exception with this arguement you are attempting to make, so I will spell it out for you.

Just becasue some saints were, at one time in thier life, declared in schism and/or were excommunicated does not mean that everyone who is declared in schism and/or are excommunicated will someday be vindicted and raised to the level of sainthood.

As for the two examples you state, St. Athanasius and St. Joan of Arc, neither one entered into schism on their own. Neither one defied their vow of obedience to the Holy Father and went against Canon Law and created a heirarchy of their own.
 
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katolik:
Because, not only did the Mass change after Vatican II. The SSPX is fitting against the blatant liberal theology,thought of as Catholic theology now, and the NO Mass. Many priests in the ICKSP and FSSP are now known to have opinions similar to the SSPX, but have been silenced.
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The only change in Catholic Theology is within the SSPX as they deny the right of the Holy Father to reform the Liturgy.

As for priests being silenced? If they are silenced how do you know what they think?

I see that conspiricy theories are not limited to politics.
 
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ByzCath:
The only change in Catholic Theology is within the SSPX as they deny the right of the Holy Father to reform the Liturgy.

As for priests being silenced? If they are silenced how do you know what they think?

I see that conspiricy theories are not limited to politics.
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Basically,
the FSSP/ICKSP priests said something SSPXish… and then were told to shut up about it by superiors.
 
albert cipriani:
The “duh” and “do you get that” are expressions of my exasperation at not being understood… You guys just don’t get it…Says who!!! … How absurd. – Sincerely Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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The “exasparation” you are expressing, along with all the sarcasm and anger are hardly appropriate spiritual fruits.

I left the Baptist faith of my upbringing because of the truth I found in the Catholic Church. I can not imagine why anyone who understood the necessity of belonging to the Catholic faith would leave the faith for the SSPX.
 
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katolik:
Basically,
the FSSP/ICKSP priests said something SSPXish… and then were told to shut up about it by superiors.
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Conspiricy theories or do you have proof?

“They said”, “then were told”, where is the proof?

A lot of hear say going on here.

I have determined that this is a useless discussion and think I will spend my time elsewhere.
 
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katolik:
Because, not only did the Mass change after Vatican II. The SSPX is fitting against the blatant liberal theology,thought of as Catholic theology now, and the NO Mass. Many priests in the ICKSP and FSSP are now known to have opinions similar to the SSPX, but have been silenced.
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The Mass did not change after Vatican II. The liturgy did.
 
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katolik:
Basically,
the FSSP/ICKSP priests said something SSPXish… and then were told to shut up about it by superiors.
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They were told to be obedient to their superiors who told them to be obedient to Rome where obedience is due? Imagine that!
 
I suggest that since you do not attend the Mass that you love the most, you do not love it enough. For what we love is weighed on the balance beam of what we will suffer for it. If you are unwilling to suffer the slings and arrows of your fellow Catholics calling you a schismatic or Protestant or worse, if you are unwilling to grunt and groan under the opperessive burden of confusion and strife, you do not love what you love enough. And what is worse, you are unworthy of your love. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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Yeah, and if you LOVE Jesus Christ, you LOVE the one He chose to lead His church, and that is Pope John Paul II. If you LOVE Pope John Paul II, you will OBEY him. The difference between SSPX and traditionals who’ve chosen to endure the turmoil within the Church is this: People like me LOVE the Pope, while people like you love only yourselves. You think of fulfilling only your own personal tastes, and avoiding any real hardship.

I used to be SSPX, but because I LOVE the Holy Father, I returned to The Church. Here’s what the beloved Holy Father said about SSPX. latincatholic.tripod.com/latincatholic/id10.html

SSPX is in direct, open, and hostile disobedience to Papal Authority by the virtue of your very existence. If you LOVE Jesus Christ, you’ll return to The Church, no matter how much it hurts!

Obedience to the Magisterium of the Church and especially to Her visible leader, the Pope, is an essential criterion for faithfulness to God. Pope St. Pius X emphasized this in a speech on May 10, 1909, when he said “Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her… But judge them by their works. If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgments…, then about which Church do these men mean to speak? Certainly not about that established on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.” (Eph. 2:20)

That’s what St. Pius X, your namesake, said about real love! He warned us about people like you.

I’m sure that St. Pius X is in Heaven right now CRINGING at what you people, SSPX, are doing in his name. From personal experience, I must say that SSPX’s extracurricular activities are most disturbing!! I’ve already disclosed this in an earlier thread (about two months ago).

May I suggest St. Pius X as an INTERESSOR to bring SSPX back into communion with Rome?? We should ask St. Pius X to pray for those souls adherent to the schism of SSPX. We should ask St. Pius X to pray they return to full communion with Rome before the society leads more people to Hell.
 
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