A plea to the SSPX and SSPXers

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katherine2:
First, I am amazed you left the rest of my post undisputed. I did better than I thought!!!

And yes, the Eastern Orthodox do have general confession and absolution. The parish near me has it monthly. Its right on their sign out front.
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This is true, an OCA (Orthodox Church of America) parish has what they call general confession here but it differs than general confession in the Catholic Church.

We must always be cognizant that words have different definitions for different groups.

As a former paramedic and now working in the computer filed I am reminded of this daily. As a UNIX Systems Admin, what I call a process differs from what a Database Admin calls a process.

Now on to the general confession at the OCA church. I do not know if this is standard but I am inclined to believe it is.

This follows Great Vespers (which is on Saturday night), once a month. There is a set of prayer that are prayed and then at the end of it each person wanted absolution approaches the priest individually for it. There is no general absolution, one must approach the priest and speak with him. I believe any serious sin is then confessed to him.

We must remember, the terms venial and mortal, are western in nature. The East does not really use those terms. Also Catholics do not have to go to confession for venial sins. Those are taken care of in, what could be called the general confession/absolution, at the beginning of the Mass.
 
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Iohannes:
ARRGGG! Again, it is not clear that the group is in schism.
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This has already been answered by the apologists here. It is clear they are in schism to them and I. (and the Holy Father)
 
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pnewton:
This has already been answered by the apologists here. It is clear they are in schism to them and I. (and the Holy Father)
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The LATIN MASS ABOVE IS NOT A HIGH ANGLICAN " MASS" BUT A ROAMN CATHOLIC MASS SAID VIA THE INDULT.
 
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katolik:
The LATIN MASS ABOVE IS NOT A HIGH ANGLICAN " MASS" BUT A ROAMN CATHOLIC MASS SAID VIA THE INDULT.
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I never doubted it. Still, looks are not more important than reality. How attracted one is to any style should not negate that obedience is more pleasing to God than sacrifice. None of us should ever disparage the Mass when offered in communion with the Catholic Church.
 
My best friend, who I have known since I was five, is now SSPX… My priest, formerly hers, warned her husband and her of excommuncation if they started going to the SSPX church. Her husband, well I guess her too, decided to leave our church to go to the SSPX church. We have a beautiful Traditional Latin Mass chuch in our area, we churches that have both, and they choose the only SSPX church. Her father in law who convenceid them to go, basically feel churchs with Norvus Ordo mass are evil… Oh well. I see the excommuncation as a choice. SSPX has been given many opportunities to get back in communion with the church.
 
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AmyS:
My best friend, who I have known since I was five, is now SSPX… My priest, formerly hers, warned her husband and her of excommuncation if they started going to the SSPX church. Her husband, well I guess her too, decided to leave our church to go to the SSPX church. We have a beautiful Traditional Latin Mass chuch in our area, we churches that have both, and they choose the only SSPX church. Her father in law who convenceid them to go, basically feel churchs with Norvus Ordo mass are evil… Oh well. I see the excommuncation as a choice. SSPX has been given many opportunities to get back in communion with the church.
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Yes and many bishops[normal diocesean bishops] have pledged schism if the SSPX and Roem reach an agreement. The French and German bishops’ conferences have said that they will happily go into schism if the SSPX and Rome make up an agreement. This is not as onesided as you thing. In negotiations the Roman cardinals allowed the SSPX to keep on saying that the New Mass is harmful to souls and that Vatican II has unCatholic elements, but the French and German bishops disagreed vehemently[as I said above]and this was ended.
 
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pnewton:
I never doubted it. Still, looks are not more important than reality. How attracted one is to any style should not negate that obedience is more pleasing to God than sacrifice. None of us should ever disparage the Mass when offered in communion with the Catholic Church.
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Okay, that’s not true…
Obedience serves the Faith. Not as you say that the Sacrifice of the Cross is less important than obedience. Yes and when a priest willfully breaks the rubrics,such as changing the words of consecration, and does other inappropriate things at Mass he shouldn’t be reported to the bishop, for his disobedience, shouldn’t he?
 
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katolik:
Yes and many bishops[normal diocesean bishops] have pledged schism if the SSPX and Roem reach an agreement. The French and German bishops’ conferences have said that they will happily go into schism if the SSPX and Rome make up an agreement. This is not as onesided as you thing. In negotiations the Roman cardinals allowed the SSPX to keep on saying that the New Mass is harmful to souls and that Vatican II has unCatholic elements, but the French and German bishops disagreed vehemently[as I said above]and this was ended.
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What I am worried about is what Rome is doing, or trying… not France or Germany… Remember in history the Great Schism? We have had problems with France before. Well, I don’t want anyone to be in Schism, and I am going to pay more heed to Rome than SSPX… I just keep praying for a resolve.
 
Well the French Episcopate[bishops] said that they would go into schims if the SSPX became regularized.
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let them, they are too liberal anyways. besides, nobody goes to church anymore in western europe. it’s a disgrace. i look forward for our reunion with the sspx. i’d like to see them kick some modern butt out of the church.
 
oat soda:
let them, they are too liberal anyways. besides, nobody goes to church anymore in western europe. it’s a disgrace. i look forward for our reunion with the sspx. i’d like to see them kick some modern butt out of the church.
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Wouldn’t be great if some of the “progressive” :rolleyes: American churches would too… I would take SSPX over some of them any day.
 
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AmyS:
What I am worried about is what Rome is doing, or trying… not France or Germany… Remember in history the Great Schism? We have had problems with France before. Well, I don’t want anyone to be in Schism, and I am going to pay more heed to Rome than SSPX… I just keep praying for a resolve.
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Pray for the resolve…please do pray…
 
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pnewton:
This has already been answered by the apologists here. It is clear they are in schism to them and I. (and the Holy Father)
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You act as if schism is the worst thing a Catholic can be accused of. It’s not as bad as being excommunicated. In any case, being in schism or being excommunicated is a pastoral, legal, sanction, not necessarily a dogmatic, moral, reality.

If you doubt this, you must doubt that St. Joan of Arc and St. Athanasius are saints, for they were both excommunicated and the latter was also in schism for at least 14 years. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/
 
albert cipriani:
You act as if schism is the worst thing a Catholic can be accused of. It’s not as bad as being excommunicated. In any case, being in schism or being excommunicated is a pastoral, legal, sanction, not necessarily a dogmatic, moral, reality.

If you doubt this, you must doubt that St. Joan of Arc and St. Athanasius are saints, for they were both excommunicated and the latter was also in schism for at least 14 years. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
[groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/](Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos)
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But just because some saints may have been excommunicated in the past and some may have been in schism in the past does not mean that those who are excommunicated today and in schism today will be vindicated and returned to the fold at some future date.

All we can work with is as it is today. Those who are excommunicated/in schism to day are excommunicated/in schism.
 
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ByzCath:
But just because some saints may have been excommunicated in the past and some may have been in schism in the past does not mean that those who are excommunicated today and in schism today will be vindicated and returned to the fold at some future date.

All we can work with is as it is today. Those who are excommunicated/in schism to day are excommunicated/in schism.
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David,
why do you make such a big deal about the SSPX “schism”? Your quote at the bottom of the page is by a schismatic priest. How are you justified in fighting against the SSPX associated Catholics, and not against the “Orthodox” who insult the Holy Catholic Church more than any SSPX person ever has? The “Orthodox” reject Catholic dogma, the SSPX doesn’t. Why are they somehow not in schims, while the SSPX is?
 
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katolik:
David,
why do you make such a big deal about the SSPX “schism”? Your quote at the bottom of the page is by a schismatic priest. How are you justified in fighting against the SSPX associated Catholics, and not against the “Orthodox” who insult the Holy Catholic Church more than any SSPX person ever has? The “Orthodox” reject Catholic dogma, the SSPX doesn’t. Why are they somehow not in schims, while the SSPX is?
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The SSPX do so reject Catholic dogma.

That is why their founder and all their bishops are excommunicated.

I do not make “such a big deal” about. What I do make a deal about is when people try to say that they are not in schism or that there schism is not so bad.

Schism is schism.

I have had the discussion here before and will not get into it again but I do not really believe that the Orthodox today are in schism as one can not be born into schism.
 
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ByzCath:
The SSPX do so reject Catholic dogma.

That is why their founder and all their bishops are excommunicated.

I do not make “such a big deal” about. What I do make a deal about is when people try to say that they are not in schism or that there schism is not so bad.

Schism is schism.

I have had the discussion here before and will not get into it again but I do not really believe that the Orthodox today are in schism as one can not be born into schism.
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What dogma has the SSPX rejected?

They are still schismatics… If they curse the Pope and say that the Pope will never be the Ecumenical Pontiff/Hierarch of the Church,as long as he keeps to his invented “Latin” doctrines,they are schismatic.
 
What dogma has the SSPX rejected?
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The Church Fathers all regarded schism as being at least partly heretical, since it implicitly involves a denial of papal primacy and/or infallibility; or the divine institution and authority of the episcopacy. As the Catholic Encyclopedia puts it:
Thus understood, schism is a genus which embraces two distinct species: heretical or mixed schism and schism pure and simple. The first has its source in heresy or joined with it, the second, which most theologians designate absolutely as schism, is the rupture of the bond of subordination without an accompanying persistent error, directly opposed to a definite dogma. This distinction was drawn by St. Jerome and St. Augustine. “Between heresy and schism”, explains St. Jerome, "there is this difference, that heresy perverts dogma, while schism, by rebellion against the bishop, separates from the Church. Nevertheless there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church (In Ep. ad Tit., iii, 10). And St. Augustine: “By false doctrines concerning God heretics wound faith, by iniquitous dissensions schismatics deviate from fraternal charity, although they believe what we believe” (De fide et symbolo, ix). But as St. Jerome remarks, practically and historically, heresy and schism nearly always go hand in hand; schism leads almost invariably to denial of the papal primacy.
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Lefebvrists are heretical in that they deny that the Pope has the right to revise the Roman Missal when this disagrees with their own private interpretation of Tradition and doctrinal development.

They also believe that it is possible for the Pope to impose a Missal on the Church which is sinful and deffective, and even possibly invalid.

They also believe that it is possible for an Ecumenical Council to err when it teaches on matters of faith and morals, and in doing so have to convolute the idea of a “pastoral” Council, as if the bishops’ pastoral powers were somehow non-binding on the faithful.

This is heresy.
 
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Iohannes:
ARRGGG! Again, it is not clear that the group is in schism.
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It’s clear to me. Pope John Paul II calls the Lefebvrist movement, “the schism” in his Ecclesia Dei.
In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law. (Ecclesia Dei, 5, c)
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Are things bad in the Church today? Yes do things need to be fixed? Absolutley Has the majority of the Church fallen into Apostasy and Error with just a small remaining Remnant being faithful NO NO a thousand time NO!!! I trust the words of Jesus when he promised Peter that the gates of hell would never pervail against the church. Satan can not will not win, Things are bad but they will get better one way or another. Either we will fix the problems ourselves or perhaps God will send something akin to the Minor Chastisment (read Trial Tribulation& Triumph by Desmond Birch) to jar us awake and force a change. PRAY ALL OF YOU , we need to Pray for our Church!
 
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