A plea to the SSPX and SSPXers

  • Thread starter Thread starter JNB
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
/TLM: What are your views concerning next year’s Synod of

Bishops on the Eucharist? /

/BBF: / Provided the right means are taken, provided the hearts
of the faithful and the clergy are directed again towards what
is the heart of the Church and should be the heart of the life
of any Catholic, this Synod could be the start of a true
renovation in the Catholic Church. But once again, I do not
think that that is possible without a tremendous, dramatic
spiritual fight. Deadly forces are present. I do not hesitate to
say that we are in an apocalyptic battle. So let us pray and
pray a great deal.
/TLM: What are your thoughts about Mel Gibson’s film ‘The Passion of the Christ’ and its potential to reach souls? /

/BBF: / We may never have seen so visible a contradiction within
the Catholic Church, especially among Bishops, as in the
comments in favour of or against Mel Gibson’s film. This deep
opposition on a matter of opinion reveals much about topics of
much deeper importance. The question of a film is in itself an
indifferent matter and as Catholics we should judge it first by
looking at its fruits.

There is no doubt that in the present situation of the world and
of the Church, this film has to be placed amongst the most
powerful means of apostolate. But, as a film, its effects will
remain temporary and transitory. It will be the work of the
Priests to take advantage of the situation created and to lead
souls to a deeper and more stable condition by means of
catechism, Sacraments and all the usual means of the Church to
preserve the state of grace in souls. A great supernatural means
of conversion, a tremendous mercy of God by the intensity of the
truth it recalls to the memory of this poor world: the existence
of God, of sin, of the punishment of sin which is death and
hell, of a Redeemer, of the sacrifice of the Redeemer to save
us, of the co-operation of creatures and especially of the
Blessed Virgin Mary in this work of Redemption. The violence in
the film in certain scenes may be striking, but is not such a
shock needed in order to let these truths penetrate into the
heart of modern man? My great congratulations to Mel Gibson for
his masterpiece and his courage.

/TLM: What is the situation in your seminaries, particularly
with regard to priestly ordinations? /

/BBF: / This question could yield a whole interview or
conference in itself. Among our six seminaries, Australia should
bring forth its first priestly fruits next year, which is a
happy sign for the mission countries of the Society. This year
and the next will be rather low in number of new Priests; we
will add just below 20 new Priests. But this is a temporary
situation and the number of newcomers is rather stable; each
year we get between 50 and 60 new vocations. We certainly need
many more and we can hardly cover the needs of all the faithful
crying for help in the whole world. If we had one hundred and
twenty to a hundred and fifty more Priests right now, we could
provide them with “work and roof” immediately.
 
MeaCulpa,

And what does this interview have to do with anything?

Would have been better for you to summarize it and post a link to it for those who wish to read it.

I get Latin Mass magazine and couldn’t make it though this interview nor the interview with the three priests later in that issue.
 
Let me make this clear, I am not a supporter of the SSPX.

However, the issue is really if they are in schism or not, ok. If you think are “bad” or “good” that is your opinion, but the issue is if it is clear if they are in schism.

Number one I have not raised myself over church authority, but telling you guys what the church is doing and the church is not treating the SSPX as a schism.

Ecclesia Dei was not proclaimed Ex Cathedra and has no enforcing powers at all, and liberal bishops ignore the part to offer the Traditional Latin Mass generously, with the exception of an SSPX chapel nearby or they are all out condenscending.

Rome not govern by Fiat or whim.
 
40.png
Iohannes:
Let me make this clear, I am not a supporter of the SSPX.

However, the issue is really if they are in schism or not, ok. If you think are “bad” or “good” that is your opinion, but the issue is if it is clear if they are in schism.

Number one I have not raised myself over church authority, but telling you guys what the church is doing and the church is not treating the SSPX as a schism.

Ecclesia Dei was not proclaimed Ex Cathedra and has no enforcing powers at all, and liberal bishops ignore the part to offer the Traditional Latin Mass generously, with the exception of an SSPX chapel nearby or they are all out condenscending.

Rome not govern by Fiat or whim.
Click to expand...
The Church’s teachings on Faith and Morals are binding whether spoken ex-cathedra or not. There are several other threads that treat this subject. You can do a search.

While I agree that there are several dissenting bishops in the U.S. on all sorts of subjects, Tridentine Mass included, this does not negate the fact the Ecclesia Dei is binding as well as all of the other Church teachings on Faith and Morals that they are ignoring.

If they are “good” or “bad” is already covered by the Church in Ecclesia Dei.

The Church, not I, has declared them not in communion with Rome. The Ecclesia Dei commission has more than once talked of their “schismatic mentality” and warned people to stay away lest they adhere to the schism. Bishop Bruskewitz went so far as to excommunicate anyone in his diocese with SSPX and this has not been overturned. (The Hawaii six is a whole other situation which was overturned for proper reasons that are quite different than the diocese of Lincoln).

I agree that the Vatican is trying to keep the lines of communications open and this is a good thing or we wouldn’t have regularizations like Campos.
 
40.png
ByzCath:
MeaCulpa,

And what does this interview have to do with anything?

Would have been better for you to summarize it and post a link to it for those who wish to read it.

I get Latin Mass magazine and couldn’t make it though this interview nor the interview with the three priests later in that issue.
Click to expand...
To answer you, It seemed pertinent to the topic.

Perhaps it would have been better to summarize it but I did not want to editorialize it but present it for information for those who might not get the magazine and might like to read it - and if not to just skip over it.

It seemed to me to present why they (SSPX) are resistent to uniting with the Church though I don’t agree with them - as I said, I just presented it for information purposes.
 
40.png
Iohannes:
Ecclesia Dei was not proclaimed Ex Cathedra and has no enforcing powers at all, and liberal bishops ignore the part to offer the Traditional Latin Mass generously, with the exception of an SSPX chapel nearby or they are all out condenscending.
Click to expand...
I am not sure this is accurate. Perhaps you might like to read what Fr. Sotelo wrote about the subject - I find it the most concise explaination of the schism.

forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?t=16201

I recommend reading the entire article but he says,
You see, in the Catholic Church, the Pope is the law, simply put. He writes it, he interprets it, and quite frankly, he can break it (he can break the rules of canon law, since he wrote them) and there is no tribunal and no legal force that “invalidates” his actions. Of course, he still has to follow the 10 commandments, or like us, he will fall into grave sin.
Click to expand...
But contrary to what the SSPX tells people, the Pope doesn’t have to give a hoot about procedures and yadda, yadda, yadda. Everyone else in the Church has to be concerned about that. But as bad as it sounds, the Pope can punish anyone, he can sanction anyone, at any time, for whatever reason, and he is not obligated to follow diddly squat.
Click to expand...
So if the Pope says you are in schism, you are and if says you are excommunicated, you are.
 
And Popes can ERROR and many have errored big time in history. After all they are not infalliable in those things…
 
I believe that even if the SSPX would come back to Rome, it would not do much good. Bishops will still be stuborn and will not allow these more traditional priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. It’s only an opionion though.
 
Well the French Episcopate[bishops] said that they would go into schims if the SSPX became regularized.
 
40.png
ByzCath:
No more a catchphrase as “the mass has to be reverent”.

The Mass is the Mass. Latin is no more reverent than English.

I attended a Mass that had EMHC and even altar girls but it was very reverent.

As for communion in hand, are you saying that the early Church was no reverent?

I am sorry but you can pray all you want but if you do not understand what you are parying it means nothing.

There is nothing that protects the Trad Latin Mass from irreverence. I was speaking with a priest who was ordained and celebrated the Trad Latin Mass before the “new” Mass came to be. He said that back then there were many priests who could not make the transitition to English becuase they just sped though the Words of Consecration, but now that they laity could understand what was being said one had to be more reverent when saying the words.

For some reason many Trad Latin Catholics seem to think that Latin and the old Mass are somehow more sacred, for me it smacks of superstition.
Click to expand...
What do you suppose would have happened if Jesus would’ve spoken to the apostles in Greek, or Latin? Many times throughout scripture the apostles didn’t know what Jesus was talking about when he spoke to them in their native tongue. The same goes for the mass in the vernacular. Why would I choose to hear words and follow along in a missal with a translation and then respond in Latin? If Latin is the universal language of the Church, why aren’t homilies delivered in Latin in the Tridentine mass? For the same reason that pre-vatican II congregations were mostly praying the rosary during a mass they couldn’t understand without a missal. Complete detachment from the mass does not equal reverence.

Where the situation went astray wasn’t in the reverence during mass, or modern music (with ancient instruments), but with liberal interpretation of the vatican II rules and the correlational discord and infidelity to the Holy Father and the Magisterium that began and continued throughout the 1970’s.

The mass in Latin has little if anything to do with the priest and religous shortage we face today. The more far reaching effect is lack of faithful and true catechesis. The ruin of a generation that we will be suffering with for three generations to come before its completely reversed.

The other problem, and it also happens to be a problem for the social security system in this country that is only now coming to light with the baby boomers retiring, and that is procured abortion… 43 Million lives have been lost to abortion since 1973. That is 43 Million fewer potential social security contributors, as well as 43 Million fewer potential priests and religous.
 
You are missing the point with regards to Latin. Today Latin brings a since of the Transcendence which is missing in the Novus Ordo. If you were to go to an Orthodox Church you would see an Iconstance (Icon Wall) separating you from the priest. In the Russian Churches they have a curtain they close during the words of consecration. Thus, they have a great since of the transcendence.

In an Ethiopian Orthodox Church it is not uncommon for the words, “Gate to Heaven” be places on the outside of the Iconstance.

In the Novus Ordo we have no mystery or since of “Awe” left. An old Latin saying, “we worship as we believe.” If we worship with a sandal guitar slinging priest in a round church on a table is how we treat the BODY AND BLOOD OF GOD then that is what we believe. If we truly knew what was happening at Mass we would be flat on our face worshipping God.

In the old days people dressed up in there “Sunday Best” to go to Church. The saying use to be if God was to show up right now what would you wear to greet him? Remember the passage in the Bible to the man who went to the wedding without the proper clothes?

The Latin Mass by its nature brings a since of reverence in turn people tend to dress better, act better, etc… Compare this to flip flops and cut offs at your local Novus Ordo.
 
40.png
JNB:
Catechesis is now to the point that it has become a catchphrase. Sorry, but that is not the end all be all. Catechesis alone wont do it, the mass has to be reverent, and with the old mass, the mass itself was, although that of course wasnt its primary purpose, an extension of cathechisis. No matter what missal, there is a visial difference between reception of communmion in the hand from a EMHC while standing when some Marty Haugen tune is being sung by t he chior to kneeling at the altar rail, recieveing on the tounge from a priest or deacon while a Latin or Anglican hymn is being sung.

Now the TLM wont be a cure all, but one has to ask why are Traditionalist seminaries having to turn down vocations, while the LA archdiocese with 4 million baptised Catholics only ordained 5 men this year? I think if the SSPX put its pride aside, the restoration movment would be much further along.
Click to expand...
…and if we take pride, let us take pride in the Lord!
 
40.png
OrthoCath:
Some times a picture is worth a thousand words:
Click to expand...
Since this discussion is about a group in schism and since we walk by faith, not sight, I would say pictures are worthless. Surely a high Anglican Mass celebrate beautifully, but without valid orders could not equate to the simplest Mass with the real presence of Christ.
 
40.png
OrthoCath:
Some times a picture is worth a thousand words:

Russian Orthodox Church:
tolstoyfoundation.org/images_church/StSergius_icons_006.jpg

Coptic/Ethiopian Orthodox Church:
christusrex.org/www1/jhs/JHS-coptic-2.jpg

Traditional Latin Mass:
latin-mass-society.org/images/introibo.jpeg

Novus Ordo:
home.pacbell.net/rfkeller/HolyGhost/DSC03152.jpg

Which one in your honest opinion shows diginity and respect that should be given to almighty God?
Click to expand...
Cute, but intellectually flawed. The last appears to be a blessing for a Quinceanera. Hold whatever opinion you like about Quinceanera, but this is one of those pre-conciliar practices that has not fallen out of favor. The only difference since the Council is that the church nows frowns on forced segregation of parishes (please assure me that desegregation is not the “modern reform” you object to).

The photo of the former Mass was very nice. No chance any American would see such a scene in this country. Baroque chapel with High Mass? Try tacky faux-Gothic churches with low Mass. And while I like the idea of a deacon assisting at Mass, the pre-conciliar practice of having a priest vest and pretend he was a deacon or subdeacon was a shortcoming.

As far as the Orthodox liturgies, yes beautiful. Also generally in the vernacular, with communion in both forms, with a real deacon, with a lay reader, with varying canons, often with the priest’s wife leading the choir, with a Easter Vigil at night rather than Saturday morning, sometimes preceded by general confession and absolution, with less rigid rules as to the color of vestments, with concelebration and never with priests waltzing over from the rectory just to give out communion.
 
40.png
pnewton:
Since this discussion is about a group in schism and since we walk by faith, not sight, I would say pictures are worthless. Surely a high Anglican Mass celebrate beautifully, but without valid orders could not equate to the simplest Mass with the real presence of Christ.
Click to expand...
ARRGGG! Again, it is not clear that the group is in schism.
 
40.png
OrthoCath:
You are missing the point with regards to Latin. Today Latin brings a since of the Transcendence which is missing in the Novus Ordo. If you were to go to an Orthodox Church you would see an Iconstance (Icon Wall) separating you from the priest. In the Russian Churches they have a curtain they close during the words of consecration. Thus, they have a great since of the transcendence. Would you not agree that this is an opinion? I do not find the NO Mass lacking in transcendance if reverently celebrated. I have attended Eastern Uniate Services, in which the Divine Liturgy was celebrated in English. It left me cold (I think the Latin Rite is more austere, and for me, IN MY OPINION, there is a certain transcendence in austerity). Would it have been “better”, more transcendent if it was in another tongue? If so, then why? Why does not understanding the language make a ritual more transcendent? I would agree if you said mysterious, since most people wouldn’t be able to understand it, unless of course they’re looking at their missal.

In an Ethiopian Orthodox Church it is not uncommon for the words, “Gate to Heaven” be places on the outside of the Iconstance.

In the Novus Ordo we have no mystery or since of “Awe” left. An old Latin saying, “we worship as we believe.” If we worship with a sandal guitar slinging priest in a round church on a table is how we treat the BODY AND BLOOD OF GOD then that is what we believe. If we truly knew what was happening at Mass we would be flat on our face worshipping God. I quite agree with your last statement! But this can happen in a Novus Ordo. Indeed, it happens every Sunday in my parish when our hard-nosed pastor is at the altar. It is transcendent, holy, miraculous!

In the old days people dressed up in there “Sunday Best” to go to Church. The saying use to be if God was to show up right now what would you wear to greet him? Remember the passage in the Bible to the man who went to the wedding without the proper clothes?

The Latin Mass by its nature brings a since of reverence in turn people tend to dress better, act better, etc… Compare this to flip flops and cut offs at your local Novus Ordo.
Click to expand...
Now this, sadly, is all too true!
 
40.png
katherine2:
, sometimes preceded by general confession and absolution, .
Click to expand...
No one besides Protestants has “general confession and absolution” in normal sitautions
 
40.png
Iohannes:
ARRGGG! Again, it is not clear that the group is in schism.
Click to expand...
Let’s just say for the sake of argument that Ecclesia Dei doesn’t hold any weight (not sure why you think that something has to be spoken ex-cathedra to be infallible but that’s another argument)

Here’s the definition of schism:
schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." [Code of Canon Law c.751]

Straight from the horse’s mouth is this geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9463/1974.html

Highlight:
We refuse, on the other hand, and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which were clearly evident in the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it.
Click to expand...
You can also see where they refuse submission when they take their shots at FSSP for being obedient to Rome and to the local bishops who are in communion with Rome.

I’ll agree that they say “we submit to Rome but not here, here and here.”

It might be easier to just turn this around and ask where the SSPX has shown submission to Rome?
 
40.png
katolik:
No one besides Protestants has “general confession and absolution” in normal sitautions
Click to expand...
First, I am amazed you left the rest of my post undisputed. I did better than I thought!!!

And yes, the Eastern Orthodox do have general confession and absolution. The parish near me has it monthly. Its right on their sign out front.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top