A poll on Liturgy and Mass

[ConstantinePX]

Since I am relatively new here, I would like to take a simple poll to get a feel for the community in regards to more traditionalist and more modernists/Vatican II positions. I assume there have been many a thread of this nature posted in the past but I wasnt able to find a poll in the search. For clarities sake, this is more in regards to the liturgy and mass, not so much the political or ideological stances of ‘Traditionalist’ vs ‘Modernist’. I am very pro-Tridentine and Traditional in my worship and study but I am particularly modernist in my views of the direction of the Church in regards to Ecumenism and the unification of the one true Church.

Also, this poll is obviously directed at our Roman Rite population, although I dont want our Byzantine or Oriental brothers to feel excluded from posting your thoughts!!

Feel free to post your comments on your stance, and God bless, brothers and sisters in Christ everywhere.

 

[James924]

but I am particularly modernist in my views of the direction of the Church in regards to Ecumenism and the unification of the one true Church.

I believe modernism is a heresy…

What do you mean that you are modernist regarding ecumenism? To be modernist regarding ecumenism is to be against true ecumenism.

Everyone ought to be in favor of real ecumenism, but it depends what you mean by it:

If by ecumenism you mean forbiding Catholics from evangelizing and gaining converts within eastern orthodox countries, or encouraging an Anglican heretical layman who who thinks he’s a bishop to keep thinking he’s a bishop, or inviting heretics to ecumenical councils where they will have a significant effect on the debate despite officially only being “observers” or doi g everything in your power to avoid honoring our lady with the title mediatrix of all graces in council documents because it will offend Lutherans, or any on that type of false ecumenism then it is indeed modernist ecumenism and no catholic should want anything to do with it.

But, if you mean boldly proclaiming the truth of the catholic faith and inviting the rest of the world and especially others who consider themselves followers of Christ to join the fullness of the body of Christ, which often involves condemning their beliefs as errors, and telling them where the truth lies as Pope Pius IX in his apostolic letter to Protestants prior to Vatican I, then that is true ecumenism and ought to have the support of all Catholics.

 

[ConstantinePX]

I believe modernism is a heresy…

I never fully grasped how it was heretical to want to bring our distraught Orthodox and Protestant brothers into communion. In the spirit of discussion, could you explain your views/stance on the matters you find heretical?

 

[James924]

I never fully grasped how it was heretical to want to bring our distraught Orthodox and Protestant brothers into communion. In the spirit of discussion, could you explain your views/stance on the matters you find heretical?

Sorry, before I saw your post I went in to edit my initial one. There you’ll find my explanation.

If you are traditionalist then I think we might simply be talking past each other, particularly regarding the meaning of the word modernist.

 

[SonCatcher]

I never fully grasped how it was heretical to want to bring our distraught Orthodox and Protestant brothers into communion. In the spirit of discussion, could you explain your views/stance on the matters you find heretical?

There is a secular trend called modernism that is regarded as heretical in its approach to the Church and has nothing to do with the subject of your poll.

The usual terms to refer to the prior and current forms of the liturgy are:
Ordinary Form (OF) for the post V-II liturgy
Extraordinary Form (EF) for the Tridentine form

 

[Elizium23]

I will not answer this poll due to the faulty terminology used.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Would you care to rephrase your questions, please?

And if you’re pitting those who prefer the EF against those who prefer the OF, don’t go there. It’s ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church with two forms of the same Sacrifice of the Mass…

What did you mean: Formation of Liturgy?

 

[rben20]

I will not answer this poll due to the faulty terminology used.

Exactly. Terrible use of wording. Directed at the OP, if you read the rules we are not to pin the Forms against each other…yet that is exactly what you did in defining Traditionalists vs. Modernists and I use those terms loosely.

 

[Sirach2]

Jim, He belongs to this group, according to his profile. I would guestimate that he fully agrees with its charter, as hinted in forming his poll.

This is a group for young men and women under the age of 25 … It is for those young people who are willing to take an oath against modernism in the Church as Pope St. Pius X had done during his pontificate. It is for those young people who are against the Church coping with the modernized outside world and for the modernized outside world coping with the Church.

 

[DAAVEED1590]

I never fully grasped how it was heretical to want to bring our distraught Orthodox and Protestant brothers into communion. In the spirit of discussion, could you explain your views/stance on the matters you find heretical?

Tis not wrong to bring others into the faith, in fact that is the mission Christ gave all Catholics. However, when it is done in a fashion where we accept some of thier beliefs into our Church, compromise theachings of the Church, and do not try to teach them the traditional faith, then it is herecy.

 

[DAAVEED1590]

Bad wording. But if i could vote, I would vote traditionalist.

 

[MarcusAndreas]

This is a stupid poll and modernism means denial of revelation and the supernatural, not anything said by a clergyman after 1958.

 

[catguy]

Personally, though I cannot vote, I would choose the NEW Novus Ordo Mass (the one that goes into effect on the first sunday of Advent this year), not the old, but the new one. I believe that having the Mass in the Vernacular allows the uneducated Layperson to be as intement with Our Lord as an educated and learned philosopher. I myself am one of those laymen. I am only in highschool and am in the south, where Latin is not a course in public schools. I trully think that if His Holiness has decreed that mass may, by choice, be said in the vernacular, that it is now law… no question. HOWEVER, the old translation was hastely done, and an insufficiant translation of the true Mass, in Latin. The new version of the Novus Ordo Mass is much more accurately translated, and much closer to the TRUE Mass in Latin.

The Tridentine Mass IS the true Mass, this is fact. It is a beautiful work of art and ecclesiastic might. It is so amazing, merely a single picture of the Tridentine ritual brings sublime glory to God. If ever given the oppertunity to attend a Tridentine Mass, I will GLADLY do it, because it is trully amazing. That does not change my view, however, and that does not make anyone else wrong. We, as having free will, are intitled to our own oppinions.
Ora Pro Nobis

 

[ConstantinePX]

I apologize for the wording… I did not understand nor know of this proper Modernist group or movement… I was simply referring to the ‘modern’ as post- Vatican II as it is in the modern age we are living in today. Forgive me.

I am not trying to pit anyone against anyone… I apologize if that is what it seems. I merely wanted to know the positions of the regulars here. Some people appreciate the traditionalist mass, liturgy, and worship, and some prefer the N.O. and post VatII approach. If I offended anyone or came off as trying to start aggression, again I sincerely apologize. I didnt think this would cause such a reaction. I dont think its something that should pin Catholics against eachother. Some prefer one and others prefer another way, that is all.

I will substitute modernism for say, New approach, Vatican II, or so, to avoid the confusion.

In regards to Ecuemsim, I was going off of the general definition, ‘Ecumenism or oecumenism mainly refers to initiatives aimed at greater Christian unity or cooperation.’

I understand why some confusion arose from this, as the actual application of Ecumenism can indeed lead to compromising Theology. This is not what I mean, I was referring to bringing others into conformity of the Roman Theology.

IN RETROSPECT however, I am against Ecclesiastical assimilation. We cannot comprimise Theology. But the administration of the Church is not something that needs to remain in stone, which is the major barrier between uniting Constantinople with Rome. Infact I believe that less then 1% of the schism between us is Theological, 99% of it is Ecclesiastical. The only major topic that I believe is Theological is Filioque, and even then, both Rome and Byzantine have acknowledged that this stems from the fact that Latin to Greek translation of the phrase simply is not perfect.

I hope I cleared up some of my intentions of this thread. I would never want to pit any of my brothers or sisters against eachother. :grouphug:

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hello my twin. Do you know what “modernist” and “modernism” really means in our Church? If you do, its simply wrong to call anyone who attends the OF Mass a modernist. If you don’t, then I’m telling you one who prefers the “modern” Liturgy is not a “modernist”.

 

[ConstantinePX]

Now if only I can find out how to edit the poll to clear up the wording! :manvspc:

 

[ConstantinePX]

Hello my twin. Do you know what “modernist” and “modernism” really means in our Church? If you do, its simply wrong to call anyone who attends the OF Mass a modernist. If you don’t, then I’m telling you one who prefers the “modern” Liturgy is not a “modernist”.

That was my fault on the misswording, I didnt mean to call anyone a Modernist in the proper sense. I was using it in the general sense of the ‘modern age’, the modern method of worship my generation and my parents generation. Sorry so much for the misunderstanding.

 

[TrueLight]

That was my fault on the misswording, I didnt mean to call anyone a Modernist in the proper sense. I was using it in the general sense of the ‘modern age’, the modern method of worship my generation and my parents generation. Sorry so much for the misunderstanding.

Well here’s a question. To those objecting to the term modernist, what term would you use in the case of this poll?

 

[ConstantinePX]

Well here’s a question. To those objecting to the term modernist, what term would you use in the case of this poll?

I suppose they would prefer something that doesnt imply heretical conformity to Protestant or such practices, and I can understand why they would be offended by being labeled as so when they are following the doctrine of the Church, no matter how controversial or opinions about it.

At least, this is what I sized up after reading the comments.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That was my fault on the misswording, I didnt mean to call anyone a Modernist in the proper sense. I was using it in the general sense of the ‘modern age’, the modern method of worship my generation and my parents generation. Sorry so much for the misunderstanding.

To coin a term, why don’t we just call these people “Contemporary Catholics”