A positive view of Mao's legacy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Black_Rose
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Black_Rose

Guest
I found this argument months ago that Mao’s legacy was dishonestly tainted by the anti-communist West as he is often characterized as a malicious murder. Yes, I do admire Henry CK Liu has I did enjoy reading his in depth articles written for the Asia Times that put contemporary issues in historical context supplementing them with his mastery of oriental and occidental history. I am not entirely convinced by Liu’s arguments, but I do belief that Mao has been unjustly demonized and his culpability for the Great Leap Forward fiasco has been exaggerated for ideological purposes during the Cold War.

henryckliu.com/page115.html (Mao and Lincoln)
henryckliu.com/page116.html (Great Leap Forward not all bad)

On the Great Leap Forward: Not Entirely Mao’s fault but a disaster caused by bad weather and a US trade embargo.
In late 1959, several natural disasters and bad weather conditions were reported in the press. Floods and drought brought about the “three bitter years” of 1959-62. After 1962, the economy recovered, but the politic was shifting toward a struggle against revisionism, which brought on the Cultural Revolution four years later.
There would have been no deaths in the 1961-62 famines if not for the US embargo.
Reports of severe natural disasters in isolated places and of bad weather conditions in larger areas appeared in the Chinese press in the spring of 1959, after the Wuhan Plenum in December 1958 had already made policy adjustments based on the technical criticism of Peng Dehuai on the People’s Communes initiative. In March 1959, the entire Hunan region was under flood, and soon after that the spring harvest in southwestern China was lost through drought. The 1958 grain production yielded 250 million tons instead the projected 375 million tons, and 1.2 million tons of peanuts instead of the projected 4 million tons. In 1959, the harvest came to 175 million tons. In 1960, the situation deteriorated further. Drought and other bad weather affected 55 percent of the cultivated area. Some 60 percent of the agricultural land in the north received no rain at all. The yield for 1960 was 142 million tons. In 1961, the weather situation improved only slightly.
US embargo caused millions to starve
In 1963, the Chinese press called the famine of 1961-62 the most severe since 1879. In 1961, a food-storage program obliged China to import 6.2 million tons of grain from Canada and Australia. In 1962, import decreased to 5.32 million tons. Between 1961 and 1965, China imported a total of 30 million tons of grain at a cost of US$2 billion (Robert Price, International Trade of Communist China Vol II, pp 600-601). More would have been imported except that US pressure on Canada and Australia to limit sales to China and US interference with shipping prevented China from importing more. Canada and Australia were both anxious to provide unlimited credit to China for grain purchase, but alas, US policy prevailed and millions starved in China.
On Mao’s legacy:
Without Mao, the Chinese Communist Party would not have survived the extermination campaign by the Nationalists. It was Mao who recognized the invincible power of the Chinese peasant. It is proper that the fourth-generation leaders of the PRC are again focusing on the welfare of the peasants.
In Europe, the failure of the revolutions of 1848 led to World War I, which destroyed all the monarchal regimes that had successfully suppressed the democratic revolution six decades earlier. The full impact of Mao’s revolutionary spirit is yet to be released on Chinese society. A century from now, Mao high-minded principles of mass politics will outshine all his neo-liberal critics. Like US president Abraham Lincoln, Mao Zedong will be remembered in history as a great leader; and unlike Lincoln, Mao will be remembered also as a great revolutionary.
 
If you have a postive view of Mao’s legacy, I invite you to read MAO: The Unknown Story by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday. If you still have a postive view after that book, that your either a true blue, believing communist who is blind to reality, or…someone who didn’t read the book! 😛
 
If you have a postive view of Mao’s legacy, I invite you to read MAO: The Unknown Story by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday. If you still have a postive view after that book, that your either a true blue, believing communist who is blind to reality, or…someone who didn’t read the book! 😛
Communists are red not blue! By the way did you read the linked articles? Does Liu sound like an ideologically biased communist because in most of his articles he always rails against neo-imperialism and neoliberalism?
 
Communists are red not blue! By the way did you read the linked articles? Does Liu sound like an ideologically biased communist because in most of his articles he always rails against neo-imperialism and neoliberalism?
I know they’re red, silly! 😉

And no, he didn’t sound ideologically based. However, when someone, anyone tries to spin anything positive on someone whose actions led to the death of millions of people, I get a bit irritated…
 
I found this argument months ago that Mao’s legacy was dishonestly tainted by the anti-communist West as he is often characterized as a malicious murder. Yes, I do admire Henry CK Liu has I did enjoy reading his in depth articles written for the Asia Times that put contemporary issues in historical context supplementing them with his mastery of oriental and occidental history. I am not entirely convinced by Liu’s arguments, but I do belief that Mao has been unjustly demonized and his culpability for the Great Leap Forward fiasco has been exaggerated for ideological purposes during the Cold War.

henryckliu.com/page115.html (Mao and Lincoln)
henryckliu.com/page116.html (Great Leap Forward not all bad)

On the Great Leap Forward: Not Entirely Mao’s fault but a disaster caused by bad weather and a US trade embargo.

On Mao’s legacy:
So his theory is that Mao was not a bad guy, and that the millions who died under his regime were killed by the combination of a famine and an embargo?

Wow, I guess I’m weird, but if I was the leader of a country, and my people were starving as the result of an embargo placed against my country by people who wanted me to step aside, then maybe… the best thing to do would be to step aside? To save the lives of the people whose ruler I am supposed to be? Mao let all those people starve in order to maintain his power, and yet… he’s not really a bad guy?
 
Sorry, but anyone who would link to an article that compares Abraham Lincoln *unfavorably *to Mao cannot be taken seriously.
 
However, when someone, anyone tries to spin anything positive on someone whose actions led to the death of millions of people, I get a bit irritated…
I recall reading that even the prisoners in the Russian Gulags knew things were worse in China under Mao, and they certainly did not get that information from contemporary western sources.
 
I found this argument months ago that Mao’s legacy was dishonestly tainted by the anti-communist West as he is often characterized as a malicious murder. Yes, I do admire Henry CK Liu has I did enjoy reading his in depth articles written for the Asia Times that put contemporary issues in historical context supplementing them with his mastery of oriental and occidental history. I am not entirely convinced by Liu’s arguments, but I do belief that Mao has been unjustly demonized and his culpability for the Great Leap Forward fiasco has been exaggerated for ideological purposes during the Cold War.

henryckliu.com/page115.html (Mao and Lincoln)
henryckliu.com/page116.html (Great Leap Forward not all bad)

On the Great Leap Forward: Not Entirely Mao’s fault but a disaster caused by bad weather and a US trade embargo.

On Mao’s legacy:
Mao said to let the flowers bloom. By that he meant that after the flowers bloomed, he could easily find and destroy the flowers. That was his formula for eliminating millions of people.
 
I’ve known far too many survivors (very old folks) and their descendants of the reign behind the bamboo curtain to credit Mao with any good.

Persecution of the Church can only yield bad results and so it has for China.
 
“Chairman” Mao acted as a disgrace to humanity. No respect for life, no respect for God. His economic policies are not the point here. The point is this man basically approved the deaths of millions, and tried to enforce spiritual death on everyone else by persecuting the Church.

There are few people in history that were/are as cruel, evil, malicious, and twisted as Mao. I will not say he is in Hell, but I highly doubt he had a deathbed conversion.
 
“Chairman” Mao acted as a disgrace to humanity. No respect for life, no respect for God. His economic policies are not the point here. The point is this man basically approved the deaths of millions, and tried to enforce spiritual death on everyone else by persecuting the Church.
Very well-said. I applaud you.
 
I have to say that I always rather did like the tune to ‘The East Is Red’.
 
“Chairman” Mao acted as a disgrace to humanity. No respect for life, no respect for God. His economic policies are not the point here. The point is this man basically approved the deaths of millions, and tried to enforce spiritual death on everyone else by persecuting the Church.
I do not know if Mao is in hell for his lack of faith and deeds, but Mao did express respect for human life and he does not fit the stereotype of an egomaniacal dictator but maybe an unpragmatic utopian. As I remember parts of *Quotations from Chairman Mao, *he had great respect for the Chinese peasant as they were the proletariat in Maoism much like factory workers in European Marxism. No one doubts the Great Leap Forward was disaster and millions perished, but the focus is on Mao’s responsibility for those deaths and his intentions. Liu attempts to exculpate Mao from incompetence and malice by attributing the suffering from the Great Leap Forward to exogenous factors such as the inclement weather and economic sanctions. (Another hypothesis is that Mao had benevolent intentions stemming his desire to improve the peasants welfare, promote capital formation, and free China from imperialistic influences on a path towards national self-determination; but he was merely incompetent or his plans were not implemented properly.) The Red Guards tried to suppress political opponents by subjected those with supposed capitalist sympathies subjecting them to “struggle sessions” during the Cultural Revolution. Confucianist texts, Buddhist monasteries, and crucifixes were also unfortunate victims of the Red Guards’ fervor. However, the suppression violent political opponents is not a unique sin of the radical left since Augusto Pinochet, Jorge Rafael Videla, and Roberto D’Aubuisson used these tactics to suppress their political rivals.

I posted this because it was an unconventional article, but since I do not have through understanding of Chinese history beyond my exposure of Liu’s writings, I cannot be an articulate apologist for Mao. Despite being perspicacious and informative in his other articles, he is an ideological Maoist who often defends the Chinese Communist Party. I recently found by searching on google that he had an acrimonious confrontation on a mailing list with J Bradford de Long about Mao and the Great Leap Forward more than a decade ago.

mailman.lbo-talk.org/1999/1999-June/010587.html
mailman.lbo-talk.org/1999/1999-June/010568.html

Yes, he is not the pinnacle of objectivity, but that accusation is equally applicable to everyone since our perception of reality is refracted by our ideological and political spectacles. I do not see Mao as imperfect, but it is a reasonable thesis that Mao’s legacy has been unjustly tainted, distorted, and misunderstood in the ideological battleground of the Cold War. Unlike Liu, I am willing to accept that Mao was incompetent, but I find the uni-dimensional caricature of a cold-blooded power-hungry tyrannical dictator too simplistic.
 
To attempt to sanitize the record and life of Mao Zedung represents a shocking failure of intellect and will. It is a capitulation to evil. I attempted to click past this thread several times thinking it the product of a moment’s lapse, but as it continues to limp along, I can no longer restrain myself. This is the manner in which history is corrupted and repeated - in the failure, willful or otherwise, to identify its evils, in the fragmentary and unreliable nature of human memory and in the rewriting of history for political and ideological ends.

There is no “positive view” of Mao Zedong’s legacy. The question itself is an affront to the countless, faceless, nameless innocents buried en masse in the record of his “accomplishments”. Dialectic Materialism has no point of intersection with Christianity, is the enemy of Christianity and its complete antithesis. The attempt to draw lines between Lincoln and Mao is profoundly empty of scholarship and demeans the essential character of the first to create a hint of character for the second that never existed in him. It is a disgrace.
 
The nation of China remains as a prison camp to this very day, thanks to Mao.
To defend Mao is to cast dishonor on the countless martyrs who died at Mao’s direction.

There is no “postive” view of Mao’s legacy that can be supported.
 
The nation of China remains as a prison camp to this very day, thanks to Mao.
To defend Mao is to cast dishonor on the countless martyrs who died at Mao’s direction.

There is no “postive” view of Mao’s legacy that can be supported.
Right on the money Catherina!!👍
 
The problem with Mao is the same as that of other communist leaders as well as the Nazis, namely that, having rejected God and the idea of Heaven, they found an ideology that they believed would allow them to create a heaven on earth. And, in the pursuit of that end they inevitably achieved a hell on earth.

I guess Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and company never went through the following dialogue, certainly not in heartfelt way.

Priest: Do you reject Satan?
Response: I do.
Priest: And all his works?
Response: I do.
Priest: And all his empty promises?
Response: I do.
 
To attempt to sanitize the record and life of Mao Zedung represents a shocking failure of intellect and will. It is a capitulation to evil. I attempted to click past this thread several times thinking it the product of a moment’s lapse, but as it continues to limp along, I can no longer restrain myself. This is the manner in which history is corrupted and repeated - in the failure, willful or otherwise, to identify its evils, in the fragmentary and unreliable nature of human memory and in the rewriting of history for political and ideological ends.

There is no “positive view” of Mao Zedong’s legacy. The question itself is an affront to the countless, faceless, nameless innocents buried en masse in the record of his “accomplishments”. Dialectic Materialism has no point of intersection with Christianity, is the enemy of Christianity and its complete antithesis. The attempt to draw lines between Lincoln and Mao is profoundly empty of scholarship and demeans the essential character of the first to create a hint of character for the second that never existed in him. It is a disgrace.
From Liu whom I agree with more:
The neo-liberal West goes so far as to accuse Mao of being a ruthless dictator, allegedly murdering 30 million of his fellow citizens with his radical programs, such as the controversial Great Leap Forward. Such propaganda bears little relation to the reality of Mao (as the greatest revolutionary in modern Chinese history who set a decaying China on the path to renewed greatness). Mao was neither perfect nor a superman. Like all humans, he made mistakes as a leader, but he provided a vision for a new China that will survive for centuries to come. Mao was demonized by the neo-liberal West simply because he was a communist. It is also a mistake for the Western left to interpret post-Mao China’s strategic response to changing global geopolitical conditions as an ideological deviation from Mao’s revolutionary vision for China.
Did you read the linked articles? Do you have any concrete argument against thesis of Mao has a great leader and revolutionary comparable to Abraham Lincoln on the former respect? (Lincoln, of course, was not a revolutionary as his greatest accomplishment was the preservation of the Union from the secessionist ambitions of the Confederacy. Lincoln suspended the civil liberties for the greater good of national unity and stability which is an uncontroversial historical view.) Will anyone engage Liu’s cogently argued position without deigning from a platform of moral superiority with the typical paroxysms or utilizing ad hominems?

I first came across Liu by searching the Internet a year ago during the dire phase of the “financial crisis” (when 30 year Treasuries were yielding below 3%, the VIX was in the 50s, and the unemployment rate was rising rapidly) from a search engine query about the financial crisis and deflation leading me to one of his* Asia Times* articles discussing deflation and Alan Greenspan. Liu impressed me with his mastery of Eastern and Western history and his knowledge of the global financial architecture and economic challenges that Asian and European nations have to face although he uses every opportunity to relentlessly criticize Western imperialism. For that point, I slowly consumed much of his Asia Times columns and I eventually ran across his “Mao and Lincoln” piece published in March 2004 although much of its content was derived verbatim from his posts on Marxist mailing groups five years before. I read his unconventional piece with an “open mind” knowing that he was arguing against the common (Western) perception of Chairman Mao being a sadistic tyrant, but while I still disagreed with Liu, I found some of his arguments valid and concluded that Mao was unfairly demonized by the West. At least, Liu shattered my previous perception of Mao being the moral equivalent of Adolf Hitler and the embodiment of evil which is the prevalent consensus of the West . I do not lionize Mao unlike Liu, but he certainly does not fit the mold of a cartoonish villain, as he is a complex individual.

I still dislike Mao’s violent regime where he took pride about the brutal suppression of dissents since it is not condonable and supererogatory. For instance, he alluded to surpassing Qin Shi Huang, the emperor of the legalist Qin Dynasty (211-206 BC) who buried alive 460 scholars in an attempt eradicate memory of previous dynasties and ensure political unity, hundred-fold by killing more than 46,000 scholars positively. Furthermore, I see the religious persecution of the Cultural Revolution unnecessary and gratuitous; for instance, one does not see how destroying Buddhist monasteries and artifacts by the zealous Red Guards would contribute to any constructive political end. But political violence is not uncommon in China, for instance, the Kuomintang (nationalists) led by Chiang Kai-shek brutally suppressed communists violently in 1927 in the Shanghai massacre only cooperating when Imperial Japan invaded Manchuria in 1937. The fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1912 also left no political infrastructure and institutions that would allow a peaceful, orderly, democratic means of achieving power resulting in warlords competing for power and eventually the struggle between the CCP and the KMT. In addition, China retained its Confucianist feudalist culture rendering it somewhat resistant to political change.

The Great Leap Forward was not the consequence of malice, but the result of bad policies such as backyard furnaces for making steel, and killing sparrows that eat insects leaving China vulnerable to a plague of locusts, a trade embargo, and bad weather.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top