A pregnant man?

[rlg94086]

Pathia - I’m sorry I got your name wrong! - Tshawn

And thanks for being you and may God continue to comfort, nourish and keep you enveloped in His love which I know can be a hard place to find sometimes!

Tshawn,

Hopefully, through prayer and the grace from God, you will find the love to offer the same wishes to all your fellow Catholics. I read all of your posts, and I understand you are a struggling Catholic, living your life as a celibate, though you disagree with some Church teaching.

Welcome! While you have a difficult cross, I think you need to understand that we all have a predisposition toward sin. So, while you think us heterosexuals have it easy because we can have a chaste, married life, don’t kid yourself. A lot of us have difficulty with Jesus’ and the Church’s “hard sayings.”

Keep up the prayers and chastity!

 

[estesbob]

It is extremely difficult for me not to want to lash out at all of you except for Pathos. If you all represent Christ and His teachings, then (if I did not know better), I would run as far away as I could from all of you! Frankly all of you disgust me with your vile, evil, and VERY ignorant remarks. I AM A CATHOLIC FTM who must struggle and carry my cross every single day of my life!!! I have struggled with being transexual since I was FOUR YEARS OLD!!! How dare any of you set yourselves up to be my judge and the judge of so many others who suffer as I do? HOW DARE YOU!!! You judge, spit and trample asunder anything that your small, narrow minds do not understand. If you people were the best Catholicism had to offer, I would spit everytime I passed a Catholic Church instead of making the sign of the cross as I do. I am too furious to finish this post. But I will be back when I can summon more Christ-like charity. You people are very mean. It isn’t enough to question as any sane person WOULD do, no, you have to mock and scorn. That is NOT Christ to me! -Tshawn
Don’t bother replying if you are going to keep being nasty or I’ll report it. - Tshawn

Rather than be angry at us you should be angry at this couple who made a mockery out of you and all transexuals who struggle to deal with their affliction with grace and dignity. They have spit in you face and you are mad at those who are poinitng it out?

 

[TShawn]

MightyQ

I’ll “take a breather” when people stop mocking transexuals and speaking hurtful to them. I’ll “take a breather” when people ask intelligent questions and learn from those who they seek to judge.
I’ll “take a breather” when people stop marginalizing and even killing people for being transexual.

Look, I don’t have a problem with people who don’t understand the condition and have some very valid concerns and questions about it. I can understand how “disturbing” it may be to people who don’t have any idea of what “transexualism” is.

What I have a problem with is the rush to judge and using religion to bash those who just can’t fit within the “confines” of how others understand things. I would much prefer that people just let others be. I am a faithful Catholic who tries to live the tenets of my faith. It’s just that some people really make that hard for me to do. How would you feel, MightyQ if YOU were the one being mocked and treated with scorn? It’s easy to criticize this man for what he is doing because it seems to defy nature. I don’t think it does. Anyone want to ask me why? I’d be happy to explain. But just because my views don’t “jibe” with yours doesn’t mean that I am not entitled to respectful consideration.

I’m sorry to some extent that I blew up. But if you were reading something that totally and irreverently trashed the Catholic Church or (God forbid!) the Eucharist, I bet you’d feel a similar reaction. - TShawn

 

[rlg94086]

MightyQ

I’ll “take a breather” when people stop mocking transexuals and speaking hurtful to them. I’ll “take a breather” when people ask intelligent questions and learn from those who they seek to judge.
I’ll “take a breather” when people stop marginalizing and even killing people for being transexual.

Look, I don’t have a problem with people who don’t understand the condition and have some very valid concerns and questions about it. I can understand how “disturbing” it may be to people who don’t have any idea of what “transexualism” is.

What I have a problem with is the rush to judge and using religion to bash those who just can’t fit within the “confines” of how others understand things. I would much prefer that people just let others be. I am a faithful Catholic who tries to live the tenets of my faith. It’s just that some people really make that hard for me to do. How would you feel, MightyQ if YOU were the one being mocked and treated with scorn? It’s easy to criticize this man for what he is doing because it seems to defy nature. I don’t think it does. Anyone want to ask me why? I’d be happy to explain. But just because my views don’t “jibe” with yours doesn’t mean that I am not entitled to respectful consideration.

I’m sorry to some extent that I blew up. But if you were reading something that totally and irreverently trashed the Catholic Church or (God forbid!) the Eucharist, I bet you’d feel a similar reaction. - TShawn

So, you rushed to judge everyone on the thread? Nice.

 

[Mighty_Q]

MightyQ

I’ll “take a breather” when people stop mocking transexuals and speaking hurtful to them. I’ll “take a breather” when people ask intelligent questions and learn from those who they seek to judge.
I’ll “take a breather” when people stop marginalizing and even killing people for being transexual.

Look, I don’t have a problem with people who don’t understand the condition and have some very valid concerns and questions about it. I can understand how “disturbing” it may be to people who don’t have any idea of what “transexualism” is.

What I have a problem with is the rush to judge and using religion to bash those who just can’t fit within the “confines” of how others understand things. I would much prefer that people just let others be. I am a faithful Catholic who tries to live the tenets of my faith. It’s just that some people really make that hard for me to do. How would you feel, MightyQ if YOU were the one being mocked and treated with scorn? It’s easy to criticize this man for what he is doing because it seems to defy nature. I don’t think it does. Anyone want to ask me why? I’d be happy to explain. But just because my views don’t “jibe” with yours doesn’t mean that I am not entitled to respectful consideration.

I’m sorry to some extent that I blew up. But if you were reading something that totally and irreverently trashed the Catholic Church or (God forbid!) the Eucharist, I bet you’d feel a similar reaction. - TShawn

Please do not attack me personally.

Your post consisted of nothing but ranting and raving. I suggested that you take a breather, hoping that you’d realize that such a rant would not get anyone on your side.

 

[estesbob]

MightyQ

I’ll “take a breather” when people stop mocking transexuals and speaking hurtful to them.

Again the only ones who mocked trnasexuals is this woman who went on the Ophra show proudly proclaiming she was a man and was pregannt. Where is your righteous indignation towards her?

 

[TShawn]

estesbob

I wish you were kidding! This couple has done nothing to harm me or spit in my face.

The MAN in question was born with a birth defect he had no choice over. Please do not tell me that “God don’t make no mistakes” because that doesn’t wash with me. How do you explain cleft palates and other congenital abnormalities? Have you ever seen a baby born with anencephaly? Such a baby cannot survive for long because it is missing most of it’s head. I have seen this.

Getting back to this man’s birth defect - Since he had a uterus rather than the normal testicles he would have been born with had the cells divided along with the signals his brain got in it’s development, he put it to good use to GIVE GENEROUSLY UNTO LIFE!!! HE CHOSE LIFE because his wife could not carry the child herself. Just because this doen’t happen everyday doens’t mean it has to be evil or a bad thing. Just because the Church says I am not a man or you for that matter, means nothing to me. I alone get to define myself. (oh yeah, and God!) Who has to stand with me on judgement day? It won’t be you or even the pope! It will be ME!!! So leave the judgement to God, eh? - Tshawn

 

[rlg94086]

estesbob

I wish you were kidding! This couple has done nothing to harm me or spit in my face.

The MAN in question was born with a birth defect he had no choice over. Please do not tell me that “God don’t make no mistakes” because that doesn’t wash with me. How do you explain cleft palates and other congenital abnormalities? Have you ever seen a baby born with anencephaly? Such a baby cannot survive for long because it is missing most of it’s head. I have seen this.

Getting back to this man’s birth defect - Since he had a uterus rather than the normal testicles he would have been born with had the cells divided along with the signals his brain got in it’s development, he put it to good use to GIVE GENEROUSLY UNTO LIFE!!! HE CHOSE LIFE because his wife could not carry the child herself. Just because this doen’t happen everyday doens’t mean it has to be evil or a bad thing. Just because the Church says I am not a man or you for that matter, means nothing to me. I alone get to define myself. (oh yeah, and God!) Who has to stand with me on judgement day? It won’t be you or even the pope! It will be ME!!! So leave the judgement to God, eh? - Tshawn

Again…you might want to take your own advice. Calm down.

Yes, you will be standing of alone on judgment day. Are you truly ready for that? Or, are you planning on telling God that He was wrong and/or messed up?

 

[TShawn]

MightyQ

Where in my post did I attack you personally? I frown very heavily on doing that and if I did then I hope you will except my sincere apology. I thought I questioned you and tried to make some points, but I wasn’t trying to attack you.

I felt entitled to a rant since I very rarely do it. I don’t kid myself into thinking any of you would ever be on my side though - again - NOT AN ATTACK!

I have found in past experience that all of the loving posts in the world wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans when trying to defend Catholicism to some ardent Protestants awhile back when I used to be heavily into apologetics. Again - VERY SORRY if you felt personally attacked! - Tshawn

 

[TShawn]

So, what would you (Robert) say to the intersexual who is born with parts of both organs?
And to answer your question - YES! But I don’t have to because God knows me through and through! I don’t have to tell Him anything that He isn’t aware of already.

You see, this is the problem. You and so many others are convinced beyond all shadow of doubt that I and my experience of myself are wrong so there is nothing I can say because your minds are closed. To the person who is convinced they are absolutely right and possess all truth there is nothing left to teach them! - Tshawn

But I deeply resent many of the posts I have read on this thread especially the quoting of “Dude…” by Aerosmith. - Not funny, very hurtful.

 

[rlg94086]

So, what would you (Robert) say to the intersexual who is born with parts of both organs?
And to answer your question - YES! But I don’t have to because God knows me through and through! I don’t have to tell Him anything that He isn’t aware of already.

You see, this is the problem. You and so many others are convinced beyond all shadow of doubt that I and my experience of myself are wrong so there is nothing I can say because your minds are closed. To the person who is convinced they are absolutely right and possess all truth there is nothing left to teach them! - Tshawn

But I deeply resent many of the posts I have read on this thread especially the quoting of “Dude…” by Aerosmith. - Not funny, very hurtful.

Am I? Have you read my posts?

I truly have great sympathy for someone born intersexed and for those who identify themselves as transexual. I believe it is a great trial for them. I do not accept that the Church is wrong when her recommendation is chastity/celibacy. That doesn’t mean I think it is an easy thing to do, or that such people should be descriminated against in society, or treated as outcasts by fellow Catholics due to their desires.

On the flipside, I don’t think it is necessary, from a secular viewpoint, for the government to sanction/recognize non-heterosexual marriages. If the majority decides we will, then it will happen. However, no Church should be forced to marry a non-heterosexual couple, if it is contrary to the tenets of their faith. As of today, non-heterosexual couples do have the right to get married in a ceremony with whomever they can find to do it. They can live together freely. They don’t have all the same benefits that a heterosexual couple has, but there is no secular “right” that says they should.

From a religious standpoint, I don’t need to accept gay marriage or relationships as licit, any more than I have to accept polygamous or adulterous relationships.

You purport to know a lot about where my heart is, and therefore feel you have the right to judge me. Believe what you will, but I do my best to follow God. In humility, I wouldn’t feel at all comfortable, as you claim to be, telling God that He is wrong and/or made a mistake. Perhaps, your concept of God is a little different.

 

[estesbob]

estesbob

I wish you were kidding! This couple has done nothing to harm me or spit in my face.

• Tshawn

The fact you defend this couple speaks volumes. They have created a traveling freak show and you defend them.

 

[estesbob]

So, what would you (Robert) say to the intersexual who is born with parts of both organs?
And to answer your question - YES! But I don’t have to because God knows me through and through! I don’t have to tell Him anything that He isn’t aware of already.

You see, this is the problem. You and so many others are convinced beyond all shadow of doubt that I and my experience of myself are wrong so there is nothing I can say because your minds are closed. To the person who is convinced they are absolutely right and possess all truth there is nothing left to teach them! - Tshawn

But I deeply resent many of the posts I have read on this thread especially the quoting of “Dude…” by Aerosmith. - Not funny, very hurtful.

Should an intersexual go on the Ophra show and show off both sets of 0rgans? Perhaps do a spread for both palyboy and playgirl? Your attitute seems to be if you have and affliction flaunt it.Is there anything transexual/intersexual can do that you would disaprove of?

 

[Lynn-D]

I too feel very sorry for people who have given themselves over to something they aren’t. That includes transgendered people, gays and folks who don’t know who they are. If you want to know who you are, look in a mirror. If you’re bothered by what you see, take it to the Lord in prayer. If that doesn’t work, take it to Him in prayer again.

Seems that some are mixing and matching what some people are and what they are not.

Let us understand that the term ‘transgender’ was coined by and for the benefit of transvestites/crossdressers. It had nothing to do with intersex or transsexuals. Only lately have some elected to mix and match them all with the GLB acronym now including the transgender ‘T’. Most transgender in fact are married heterosexual transvestites, not intersex nor transsexuals. Heck, I even learned that in Psychology/Sociology 101.

Some cannot simply look in the mirror without seeing indicators of both sexes. And add to that… some may in fact have inner indicators of one sex yet the outside sex is a contradiction. Oddity is that some functional females who even give birth have XY chromosomes and you might get the drift of the confusion many face. Some are born where both male (XY) and female (XX) chromosomes exist side by side. Physical sex is not black and white. Some might have the mental sex formed in the womb in contradiction to the physical sex which research supports by studies on the BSTc done by the Dutch not once but twice. Some professionals like Dr Milton Diamond call them neurologically intersex and many consider this to be a biological condition as did Dr Harry Benjamin; not a mental aberration at all.

To mix and match these people to the behavior of the homosexual and/or to the fetishism of the transvestites is in itself a travesty. They are not born with an additional sin but instead born with an anomaly not much different than a child born with a defective heart. Are we now to deny surgical relief of a heart problem since that is how the child was born? No, God gave us our souls and also gave us brains to use in the search for the means and methods to heal others. HE also allowed nature to take its course and in that perhaps we are given a test. How might we help others born in crisis and how might we understand them without claiming they are in sin when in fact they are not? I like to use the following and perhaps others too might agree that we do not have the right to judge, only God has that power: Mathew 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Add to all of this confusion the fact that Pope Paul VI even supported the approach by a California surgeon in his attempt to correct the sex of some afflicted and the Catholic Church even changed their baptismal certificates to reflect the corrected sex. That was in the '70’s before the transgender wrongly included others to their political attachments and their behaviors. Now that too seems to be the reasoning for the change of Papal attitude and influenced by something other than that clearly defined in the bible. Not a matter of infallibility either as I understand that to mean. But not being a theologian I must not digress.

Lynn-D

 

[householder]

I don’t kid myself into thinking any of you would ever be on my side though.

But why would you think this? You don’t know me or my attitudes.

TShawn, I am sorry that this thread has upset you. Obviously, this topic has deep personal meaning to you. Most of us are responding in reaction to a news story and wouldn’t use the same words in personal conversation with Thomas Beatie and his wife. Yes, I can see how our words come across as uncaring. Please realize that this doesn’t mean we are callous, just that we are distant and removed from personal dialogue.

Can I ask you something? In the article he wrote for the The Advocate, Thomas Beatie nevers refers to himself as transsexual, but twice calls himself transgender. Do you think this is significant? How about his decision, before he ever met his wife, to keep his female reproductive organs so that he could bear a child in the future? Is this common among FTM transsexuals?

 

[Lynn-D]

Can I ask you something? In the article he wrote for the The Advocate, Thomas Beatie nevers refers to himself as transsexual, but twice calls himself transgender. Do you think this is significant? How about his decision, before he ever met his wife, to keep his female reproductive organs so that he could bear a child in the future? Is this common among FTM transsexuals?

Remember that the ‘Advocate’ is a homosexual advocacy site. It includes all under the GLBT acronym and for them that means gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transgender/transsexual/intersex and what ever else suits their fancy. Some of the sites I have seen also list the ‘Q’ meaning queer or questioning as an addition. So please take anything the ‘Advocate’ states as being self serving and biased.

Yes, many of the FtM’s seem to co-join to the transgender theme and some believe that is simply because their sex transition surgery is not reliable or its function not at all comparable to the MtF surgeries so they focus on trans-gender rather than trans-sex as a descriptor. Just seems silly to allow yourself to be identified as something not intended in the first place and be linked to transvestite fetishists under the tg umbrella but…?

Beattie seems to be simply a lesbian who got involved with the gender variant dysphoria’s which some might refer to as ‘gender bending’ and she might simply be a confused lesbian/transgender. I would not be at all surprised to have her claim she is of another binary other than male or female; a third sex identity since that fits into the overall confusion of facts.

To link this woman to being a man is idiocy since she elected not only to keep her functional female reproductive organs but then took male hormones which obviously has had some effect upon her, (beard and voice), and now that she has stopped the hormones there is every chance the baby too might be affected as were some of those children born of female East German Olympic athletes who also took steroids and male hormones. A shame really and one visited upon an innocent child yet to be born.

 

[Jeremiahjj]

As an average straight person of the male persuasion, I have to wonder why we’re trying to turn the issue of marriage on its head. Throughout recorded history marriage has been between a man and a woman. Now men want to marry men, women want to marry women, and transgendered people want to, well, I’m not sure what they want.

Is this really necessary? Why can’t marriage be what it’s always been? We’re civilized people and, for the most part, don’t discriminate against people who are different. Given the history of language, why is it necessary to redefine the meaning of the word ‘marriage?’

I am not a lawyer, but don’t states protect the right of individuals to enter into civil contracts with each other? That should take care of inheritance issues and those kinds of things. As someone who doesn’t discriminate or hate anyone, I’m just asking why all the flap about making marriage something it isn’t.

 

[Lynn-D]

As an average straight person of the male persuasion, I have to wonder why we’re trying to turn the issue of marriage on its head. Throughout recorded history marriage has been between a man and a woman. Now men want to marry men, women want to marry women, and transgendered people want to, well, I’m not sure what they want.

Oh what a question to ask.

I do find it silly that a man would want to marry another man…I had a hard time dealing with my husband when he ranted like a man…and I am a woman. Wonder if men think about us that way too.

Again, gays and lesbians are homosexuals. Transgender simply come under the DSM as ‘gender identity dysphoric’.

But that does not mean the same thing for those who are intersex or transsexual since those two conditions are actually accepted as medical anomalies by many professionals and recognised as such by many countries. The confusion seems to become just that when the transsexuals and even the intersex are somehow included under the transgender umbrella of ‘whatever you are is ok’.

Jeremiah, let me ask you a question if I may. Do you think it wrong or even sinful for a person born intersex to correct their sex and present as such? If you knew a person was born with parts of both sexes and was listed as male at birth but then she realized that she felt more female than male and then had surgery to be fully female, what would you consider the person to be…male or female?

See how easy the subject can be? :hypno:

Lynn-D

 

[householder]

So please take anything the ‘Advocate’ states as being self serving and biased.

Your advice is noted and will be taken into account, but I wanted to clarify that the article was written by Thomas Beatie, those are his words and not theirs.

jeremiahjj:

As an average straight person of the male persuasion, I have to wonder why we’re trying to turn the issue of marriage on its head.

OMG, maybe we shouldn’t open up the marriage issue. The topic of transsexual/transgender pregnancy is complicated enough!

There currently is a thread in Moral Theology titled: Homosexual marriage don’t make sense, maybe it would be a better place for the discussion?

 

[Jeremiahjj]

TShawn, you paint with a broad brush. I don’t remember lashing out at anyone. I addressed only the issue of marriage. But I hope you have a good whatever’s left of the day down there in Tucson.