D
Do_Good_Then_Go
Guest
I have NOT suggested that everyone go around naked. I’m Catholic too.
- Status
E
Equites_Christi
Guest
I agree with (what I perceive to be) the thrust of Do Good Then Go’s point, which is that our culture views the naked human body as a pornographic thing. The message is that when someone’s naked, it’s sexual.
T
Tony_the_mad
Guest
It is my impression that even in cultures where everyone is naked there always seems a way for a woman to act or wear something immodest. It wouldn’t surprise me if the same was true in societies where women are completely covered head to toe.I have NOT suggested that everyone go around naked. I’m Catholic too.
Immodesty is much more complicated than what is worn. Men seem to always find a way to stroke their libido when in the presence of a woman. And there will always be women that oblige.
I do not suggest that everyone goes naked. I am Catholic too
.I am more than a little disturbed that the solution too often involves blaming women for what is essentially a problem with men, though.
P
Phil_Marinus
Guest
I agree with some previous post that nudity is a great thing… I have been lead to believe in nude groups there is no sexual nonsense going on…
But only in the minds of the Uninitiated… I’v never experienced nude groups so I can only go by what I have been told by people that have been
But only in the minds of the Uninitiated… I’v never experienced nude groups so I can only go by what I have been told by people that have been
O
OurLadyPray4US
Guest
I remember a former nudist saying that many nudists are swingers. You will be approached, you can say no, and they will respect that and leave you alone. So, you can choose not to be a swinger while being a nudist… but you will be approached.
D
Debora123
Guest
I’m sure it probably just depends on the colony too.
P
Phil_Marinus
Guest
My Father would often say " The Lord has many strange Borders in his House "
well… I think of that Quote of his at times… and it rings true I think…
The people I knew that were involved in nudity assured me that if anything inappropriate was going on… the persons were kicked out or an axe between there shoulder blades…
the choice was theres…
and my parents knew of one couple that were swingers, they were friends and there was never an invitation of any sort there… my parents were a strict catholic couple…
and accepting of others.
well… I think of that Quote of his at times… and it rings true I think…
The people I knew that were involved in nudity assured me that if anything inappropriate was going on… the persons were kicked out or an axe between there shoulder blades…
the choice was theres…
and my parents knew of one couple that were swingers, they were friends and there was never an invitation of any sort there… my parents were a strict catholic couple…
and accepting of others.
E
epiclotus
Guest
Honestly, I’m not sure how an article about sexual repression in Orthodox Judaism is relevant to Catholics. On top of that, do you know anything about Orthodox Judaism? Do you know anything more than the article spoon-feeds you? There are so many more layers to this problem than what can be drawn from that article alone. The author is either woefully ignorant of many of the strictures of the Orthodox Jews in Israel, or the author is deliberately misleading the readership for his/her own sensationalist reasons.
Seriously, I have done a fair amount of study on Judaism (minored in it in college), and I can verify many of the author’s comments. Yet, much of the problem is being glossed over, though, for the sake of sensationalizing a single event, and a single aspect of it. The problem goes much deeper than sexual repression in the men, and has a much greater basis in the way women in Orthodox Israel are treated generally (which is far worse than even how they are treated in the US). It is a problem of a specific culture in a specific area. Applying it generally is ignorant of many facts.
Let me be plain:
Catholicism celebrates the intimate relations of a married couple in far freer ways than Orthodox Judaism.
The author is contriving a conclusion that an emphasis on modesty has somehow caused this young girl to be spit on. If the subject of the article weren’t treated so shamefully, I would almost be urged to laugh at its superficiality.
Seriously, I have done a fair amount of study on Judaism (minored in it in college), and I can verify many of the author’s comments. Yet, much of the problem is being glossed over, though, for the sake of sensationalizing a single event, and a single aspect of it. The problem goes much deeper than sexual repression in the men, and has a much greater basis in the way women in Orthodox Israel are treated generally (which is far worse than even how they are treated in the US). It is a problem of a specific culture in a specific area. Applying it generally is ignorant of many facts.
Let me be plain:
Catholicism celebrates the intimate relations of a married couple in far freer ways than Orthodox Judaism.
The author is contriving a conclusion that an emphasis on modesty has somehow caused this young girl to be spit on. If the subject of the article weren’t treated so shamefully, I would almost be urged to laugh at its superficiality.
meltzerboy
New member
Apart from the shameful behavior exhibited toward the girl, there is something profoundly anti-Jewish about the repressed attitude toward sexuality of these Ultra-Orthodox Jewish men. Judaism in all its forms, including Orthodox Judaism, is far from a puritanical religion. Sex is not only not a dirty word but a holy word in Jewish teaching: “Be fruitful and multiply,” for example. Rabbis are almost required to marry and have children. Married couples are permitted according to Orthodox standards to engage in a whole variety of sexual activities, and not limited to the act of procreation. A married couple’s having sex is considered a blessing on the Sabbath and on Rosh Hashanah, the start of the New Year. Marriage should not occur if one partner finds the other sexually unappealing, and if sex is denied a partner in marriage, this is grounds for divorce. However, the Orthodox Jews here act as though any kind of sexual expression is sinful and evil, and this is simply not so according to Judaism.
P
Phil_Marinus
Guest
I know I just added to this post without fully reading the original thread,
Regarding a preoccupation with modesty… Well I just read the full thread…
If people of any religion take the attitude that a normal eight year old going to school
Is dressed immodestly, then maybe, just maybe they themselves have a problem that they can see a child as a sexual object, and then claim they themselves are the judges of modesty, if I get myself wound up on this subject I’ll get myself another infringement …
Regarding a preoccupation with modesty… Well I just read the full thread…
If people of any religion take the attitude that a normal eight year old going to school
Is dressed immodestly, then maybe, just maybe they themselves have a problem that they can see a child as a sexual object, and then claim they themselves are the judges of modesty, if I get myself wound up on this subject I’ll get myself another infringement …
S
SHoJ
Guest
This is the part of the modesty discussion that I just don’t get. How are upper arms immodest or sexual? Because they are on either side of the breasts and could, therefore, lead one’s eyes to the breasts? Are tummies sexual because they are just above the pelvis? Are lower thighs sexual because they eventually lead to the pelvis as well?
If “Suzie” flashes “John” at Mardi Gras or overtly tries to tempt him to view her and/or her breasts sexually, then that’s on Suzie. But if Suzie wears a pair of shorts that are mid-thigh and a scoop neck t-shirt that covers her bosom but has a gap that will show her bra/breasts if John looks down her shirt, then it’s John’s issue if he sexualizes her legs or looks down her shirt. It seems to me that some (men especially) want women to cover up all exposed skin because the men are the ones with the problem and want the women to take responsibility for the men’s actions. Blaming society and those in it who wear certain clothes instead of having custody of the eyes and thought is like an alcoholic who drinks at a party blaming the host of a party for serving alcohol instead of taking responsibility for the fact that he gave into the temptation to drink. Should I blame a store for carrying cakes that tempt me, or is it my responsibility to learn to walk by the cakes and not give into the temptation to eat them???
A
Alizarin
Guest
That’s the thing, it’s not only an issue of running in fear from the naked body, it’s also an issue of running in fear from sexuality, I think. Erotic shouldn’t be confused with pornographic. JPII’s Love and Responsibility touched on this.
L
LightBound
Guest
You mean like the preoccupation this CAF member encountered from an adolescent whose mother was misled by the “extreme modesty” subculture?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11055824&postcount=266
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11055824&postcount=266
K
Kamaduck
Guest
In my experience, this is a pretty normal result of running from everything that at all relates to sex (or more generally, to our bodies). People get the idea that bodies are dirty and shameful and that we have to hide them. Instead of dressing ourselves modestly so that people will respect us, we somehow get the idea that it is OK to disrespect people based on the fact that we can see even an outline of their bodies or a tiny bit of skin. This problem may not be as common as immodesty in our culture, but it’s a real danger for those of us who react strongly to the current cultural norms.
When we heighten our definition of modesty to the extent that these Ultra-Orthodox Jewish men have, we inadvertently cause everything to be seen as sexual. It’s not good, it’s not healthy, and it’s not what God intended. :nope:
D
Debora123
Guest
I am IN LOVE with Love and Responsibility lol. Its taught me so much about this issue.
Praise God for JPII!
D
Debora123
Guest
Yup, this right here is a perfect example.
D
Debora123
Guest
Yup.
A
Anglewannabe
Guest
I agree with the good balance, however, the sad truth of the matter is, everyone has a different idea of what is a balance.
For example, when I was in Mexico, (I forget wheres I was going but I needed to be dressed modestly and nicely), I put on a sleeveless top with a high neckline. A Mexican told me, I needed to cover my arms. Well, as a Canadian, I did not think to bring a long sleeve blouse with me. I only had one short sleeve blouse with a low neckline. He told me that would be better because at least part of my arm would be covered. Personally I think that showing cleavage is a lot more risky than arms. Not to mention, the blouse looked RIDICULOUS with my longest skirt. I though I looked much more modest (and dressed up) in the sleeveless top. I know that I probably did not fit their definition of modesty, but then again, maybe that was just a trick to get me to wearing a low cut blouse.
Who can really say what turns another one on.
But what really strikes me about this article is how quick others are to judge. As much as we all see sin against the teaching’s of the church around us, never is it encouraged to spit on someone, especially an innocent child who was probably just wearing the only clothes her parents could afford to buy her
Angie
A
Alizarin
Guest
One of the reasons I love that book myself is the section in which he writes about sexuality and art, and says the artist has a right and a duty to portray life as it is, and that includes sexuality, as long as said depiction is not pornographic, and the litmus test is whether or not the value of sex obscures the value of the person as a fellow human being, child of God. The man made a lot of sense.
K
Kamaduck
Guest
That’s beautiful. I need to read this book right now. >.>One of the reasons I love that book myself is the section in which he writes about sexuality and art, and says the artist has a right and a duty to portray life as it is, and that includes sexuality, as long as said depiction is not pornographic, and the litmus test is whether or not the value of sex obscures the value of the person as a fellow human being, child of God. The man made a lot of sense.
- Status