A priest confesses his greatest secret during Mass

[Liberalsaved]

Vicia:

Thank you so much, this is another point I wanted to make and did not have the words. I think I am going to change my signature.

All right, stop. Chesterton is not advocating that you choose convictions over tolerance. Don’t be misusing quotes.

 

[Ortho]

pnewton:

So what? The authority of the church is derived from the succession from Peter to the present is a pretty big “what”.

There are two more equally valid possibilities from the lack of action. One, that “the Vatican” doesn’t know they are gay. It is not like the pope has a list, you know. Two, their performaonce evaluations are still sitting on the popes desk unread. There is a reason, after all, that an organization a billion strong has to use the principle of locality.

There is no question about what the Holy Father or the Curia teaches. You can read it.

The Vatican doesn’t know the Catholic priesthood has a large number of gays? Are those seminary applications on the pope’s desk, too?

It’s hard to say there is a problem with gay priests when they continue to do their jobs. Since the Vatican knows the situation, and does nothing to stop it, that is approval. That’s the standard that would be applied to any organization.

 

[pnewton]

Ortho:

Are those seminary applications on the pope’s desk, too? … Since the Vatican knows the situation, and does nothing to stop it, that is approval. That’s the standard that would be applied to any organization.

Again, there are two holes in the thinking. The holy father does not interview or approve priest candidates (reference my previous statement about 1 billion Catholics). Second, not everyone is truthful and open on an apllication or subsequent interviews.

Also saying the Vatican does nothing to stop it is false. Pope Benedict has banned gays from the seminaries. That would qualify as “something”. No approval, tacit or otherwise.

 

[Liberalsaved]

Ortho:

The Vatican doesn’t know the Catholic priesthood has a large number of gays? Are those seminary applications on the pope’s desk, too?

It’s hard to say there is a problem with gay priests when they continue to do their jobs. Since the Vatican knows the situation, and does nothing to stop it, that is approval. That’s the standard that would be applied to any organization.

You forget; the ultimate measure of a person is in what they are, not what they do. This applies also to money. Rich people are better than poor people.

heavy sarcasm

 

[pnewton]

Liberalsaved:

You forget; the ultimate measure of a person is in what they are, not what they do.

The ultimate measure of a person is Jesus Christ. He is the standard we are measured against. He is also the one who does the measuring.

 

[geezerbob]

Liberalsaved:

You forget; the ultimate measure of a person is in what they are, not what they do. This applies also to money. Rich people are better than poor people.

heavy sarcasm

What a person is is usually demonstrated by what that person does.

 

[davy39]

Ortho:

I observe the Church is not a democracy. So what?

I observe the Church is not accountable to me. So what?

I still observe the Church is full of gay priests who are ministering to Catholics everyday. The lack of action from the Vatican implies those priests are doing a good job.

Do you have figures that back up your claim that the church is “full of gay priests”? I think you’re getting a little carried away. Maybe you should stop believing everything you read in the secular media.

 

[felra]

Ortho:

I agree that kicking them out would not be compassionate. But can we also presume they are doing a good job since they are left in place?

We can presume that they are not a cause for scandal if they do not publically proclaim their "gay"identity or advocating for gay lifestyle. Whether they are doing a “good job” frankly is secondary. That homosexual priests are the primary cause for the Church’s sex scandal is statistically established; and that a priest with a strong SSA psychosocial identity is constitutionally limited in ability to assume the fullness of the persona christi vocational identity of the priesthood is apparant.

 

[kaymart]

It would also be wrong if the same Priest stood up in Mass and “Proclaim his love for a woman”, although he never slept with her. This would be just as Bad as the “Gay” Priest “Proclaiming himself a homosexual”, but does not act upon it. The Mass is not a place for this. The Priest with any of these feelings should talk to his Bishop privately. It was handled horribily. He should have kept his personal feelings to himself and not burden his Parish with this.

 

[Confiteor]

\Since the Vatican knows the situation, and does nothing to stop it, that is approval.

No, this is not true in general and in this case, there are plenty of reasons that might hamper the Vatican taking immediate action. Sometimes it can take years for them to act and the circumstances may be such in some cases, that they never do. But to interpret such delays or inaction as “approval” is not correct.

 

[seabird3579]

Ortho:

I observe the Church is not a democracy. So what?

I observe the Church is not accountable to me. So what?

I still observe the Church is full of gay priests who are ministering to Catholics everyday. The lack of action from the Vatican implies those priests are doing a good job.

Both homosexual and heterosexual priests are expected to be chaste and celibate. Some diocesan priests do not take vows of celibacy, But they are still expected to be chaste and celibate.

If a homosexual priest is being chaste and celibate, he is just as holy as a heterosexual priest who is being chaste and celibate.

Possibly there are far more homosexual priests than we even know about – but if we don’t know because they are busy being holy and serving – well, God bless them, they are holy and faithful servants of God and the Church.

It does seem though, in all fairness, that homosexuals struggle more with their priestly life than heterosexuals do. I don’t know if its because they are naturally more emotional, or why. I feel compassion for them with their issues and struggles, but again, a priest is meant to minister far more than be ministered to.

I believe the priestly vocation can be summed up in the “Prayer of Saint Francis.” …".Lord, that I may seek more to understand than to be understood." …it involves Dying to Self.

 

[st.jerome]

felra:

We can presume that they are not a cause for scandal if they do not publically proclaim their "gay"identity or advocating for gay lifestyle. Whether they are doing a “good job” frankly is secondary. That homosexual priests are the primary cause for the Church’s sex scandal is statistically established; and that a priest with a strong SSA psychosocial identity is constitutionally limited in ability to assume the fullness of the persona christi vocational identity of the priesthood is apparant.

“Constitutionally limited,” I think, cannot be applied to a priest who has remained celebate for decades. One must suppose that the priest has cooperated with Grace to remain celebate for that long. The Church keeps an open mind to those who have been celebate for only three years…

The Church has made clear that it will not support candidates who openly subscribe to gay culture. I am not convinced that the priest has done this. He has argued that it is possible for gay people to hear the Good News and experience Redemption. Who can righteously argue against this?

 

[rlg94086]

When was the homo/hetero gene discovered by science? Saying there are homosexual and heterosexual priests seems to be a poor way to phrase it.

Bottom line is that all priests (male, human beings) are called to celibacy. However, it is evident by much higher number of cases of pederasty in the news the last few years, that priests with a disordered, strong attraction to males seem to have a tougher time keeping their vows.

Now, those who have been priests for years and have remained celibate have obviously controlled their attractions, regardless of whether their attractions are normal or disordered. It would be impossible to know a priests desires if he has kept his vows, unless he tells people.

seabird3579:

Both homosexual and heterosexual priests are expected to be chaste and celibate. Some diocesan priests do not take vows of celibacy, But they are still expected to be chaste and celibate.

If a homosexual priest is being chaste and celibate, he is just as holy as a heterosexual priest who is being chaste and celibate.

Possibly there are far more homosexual priests than we even know about – but if we don’t know because they are busy being holy and serving – well, God bless them, they are holy and faithful servants of God and the Church.

It does seem though, in all fairness, that homosexuals struggle more with their priestly life than heterosexuals do. I don’t know if its because they are naturally more emotional, or why. I feel compassion for them with their issues and struggles, but again, a priest is meant to minister far more than be ministered to.

I believe the priestly vocation can be summed up in the “Prayer of Saint Francis.” …".Lord, that I may seek more to understand than to be understood." …it involves Dying to Self.

 

[seabird3579]

When was the homo/hetero gene discovered by science? Saying there are homosexual and heterosexual priests seems to be a poor way to phrase it.
.

Did I mention science or a gene? I was referring to self-perceptions. Sorry if I didn’t make that more clear. The Church has acknowledged that there are homosexual and heterosexual priests and I was using her language.

As Catholics we don’t necessarily wait for Science to validate our language and definitions. We rely on the teachings of the Church as voiced through the Magisterium.

In my view, Science is usually late and catches up to theology long after spiritual people have already discovered a certain truth.

 

[rlg94086]

If I am wrong, then I apologize. I’m not familiar with anything from the Church acknowledging that there are homosexual and heterosexual priests. I’ve only read about “tendencies” and “attractions”. If you could direct me to an encyclical or catechetical passage, I will apologize more fully.

seabird3579:

Did I mention science or a gene? I was referring to self-perceptions. Sorry if I didn’t make that more clear. The Church has acknowledged that there are homosexual and heterosexual priests and I was using her language.

As Catholics we don’t necessarily wait for Science to validate our language and definitions. We rely on the teachings of the Church as voiced through the Magisterium.

In my view, Science is usually late and catches up to theology long after spiritual people have already discovered a certain truth.

 

[felra]

"Constitutionally limited," I think, cannot be applied to a priest who has remained celebate for decades. One must suppose that the priest has cooperated with Grace to remain celebate for that long. The Church keeps an open mind to those who have been celebate for only three years…

Originally Posted by felra

a priest with a strong SSA psychosocial identity is constitutionally limited …
See my qualifier. Why do I contend this, because Jesus in his priesthood is heterosexual in his psychosexual identity.

The Church has made clear that it will not support candidates who openly subscribe to gay culture. I am not convinced that the priest has done this. He has argued that it is possible for gay people to hear the Good News and experience Redemption

. Who can righteously argue against this?

This is correct as the Church teaches.

 

[rlg94086]

Well, I’m not sure, but I may have found my own answer. While it doesn’t reference priests, the Catechism does use the terms “homosexual persons”. Here are the three paragraphs in the Catechism dealing with the subject:

**2357 **Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

The wording of 2357 and 2358 is what I was referring to. Again, I apologize.

rlg94086:

If I am wrong, then I apologize. I’m not familiar with anything from the Church acknowledging that there are homosexual and heterosexual priests. I’ve only read about “tendencies” and “attractions”. If you could direct me to an encyclical or catechetical passage, I will apologize more fully.

 

[seabird3579]

rlg94086:

If I am wrong, then I apologize. I’m not familiar with anything from the Church acknowledging that there are homosexual and heterosexual priests. I’ve only read about “tendencies” and “attractions”. If you could direct me to an encyclical or catechetical passage, I will apologize more fully.

If you read the book, “Goodbye, Good Men” by Michael Rose, it will help you to understand how seminaries have changed over the last fifty to hundred years, and hopefully how they are now headed back on track.

His subtitle to the book is: “How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church.”

When you understand the way American seminaries were “selecting” young men to become priests, it will help you understand more clearly, I believe, why this present Pope has called for a ban on permitting homosexuals to be ordained.

I have not missed your point that homosexuality is a disorder. What we as the christian body have to struggle with is how to love the sinner while hating the sin. And, in the process, protect the most vulnerable among us – the children.

 

[YinYangMom]

Ortho:

OK. So why ban seminarians? Are the gay priests doing a poor job?

The priesthood is not a job. It’s not a career choice like becoming a teacher or principal or doctor.

It is a calling from God Himself.

This is why training and discernment is so critical at the seminary stage. It is up to the bishop and the seminary administrators to help discern whether or not the people who have come to them to seek the priesthood have been called or just want to become priests.

Now it may very well be that God does call SSA men to become priests, but just as He did when He walked the earth, the call comes with total abandonment to oneself.

When Jesus taps us on the shoulder to follow Him, He means just that - follow. It doesn’t mean pick and choose, hold onto things we got used to having, behaving the way we used to before we came to know Him. So when He does call an SSAer He is asking that person to cast aside his SSA tendencies for the sake of the Kingdom.

Those who become priests and do not strive to overcome their attractions are lying to God and to themselves. To take it further and profess the Church to be wrong in Her position to his congregation the openly gay priest demeans Christ and His Church.

 

[rlg94086]

You seem to think we are in disagreement. I’m not sure why. I happen to think our Pope is doing the right thing. I’m very aware with the situation in the seminaries and don’t feel the need to read the book. I’ve met with the people at Mt Angel Abbey and actually had the process of psychological profiling and counselling they use explained to me.

In short, where do you think I am lacking in my understanding?

seabird3579:

If you read the book, “Goodbye, Good Men” by Michael Rose, it will help you to understand how seminaries have changed over the last fifty to hundred years, and hopefully how they are now headed back on track.

His subtitle to the book is: “How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church.”

When you understand the way American seminaries were “selecting” young men to become priests, it will help you understand more clearly, I believe, why this present Pope has called for a ban on permitting homosexuals to be ordained.

I have not missed your point that homosexuality is a disorder. What we as the christian body have to struggle with is how to love the sinner while hating the sin. And, in the process, protect the most vulnerable among us – the children.