A priest wouldn't let me confess past sins

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The bold is mine.

Paliative care is a moral obligation for anyone, self and others. You may not deny anyone medication, oxygen, food, water and ordinary medical care, even if it’s you. Check Pope John Paul’s writings on suffering. He makes a very clear distinction between ordinary care and extraordinary means.

He also makes a clear distinction between accepting suffering that cannot be remedied and the suffering that can and must be remedied either in the self or the other.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
I’m afraid I don’t have time to sift through all of his writings on suffering, but if you have in mind the relevant quote by him of it, I’d be happy to go by it.

I think you are talking about a different issue though. The ordinary care vs. extraordinary means distinction is usually applied to end of life issues, not what we’re talking about now.

What type of suffering exactly then is it that you say must be relieved, as a moral obligation, if we come under? Would you agree that this at least is often not the case? That there is honor in the acceptance of suffering, even if it may be remedied?
 
I’m afraid I don’t have time to sift through all of his writings on suffering, but if you have in mind the relevant quote by him of it, I’d be happy to go by it.

I think you are talking about a different issue though. The ordinary care vs. extraordinary means distinction is usually applied to end of life issues, not what we’re talking about now.

What type of suffering exactly then is it that you say must be relieved, as a moral obligation, if we come under? Would you agree that this at least is often not the case? That there is honor in the acceptance of suffering, even if it may be remedied?
Mystical theology is very clear on suffering. It bases its truths on the lives of the mystics from the OT to today. The mystics accepted suffering that was the Will of God. This is an act of obedience and of love.

However, suffering was not simply accepted without trying to alleviate it. For example, Francis of Assisi, whom the Church has called the Perfect Christian, underwent several procedures to restore his vision, all of which failed. When they failed, he accepted the outcome as God’s will.

Teresa of Avila had cancer. She too underwent several medical interventions. She was cured the first time around and embarked on her reform of the Carmelite Order. The second time around, the treatments were unsuccessful and she accepted the results as God’s will. She did of cancer.

Pope John Paul II underwent numerous medical interventions for different problems. This is public knowledge. He accepted the results as God’s will. In his case, the interesting thing was when he could no longer speak he said that it would be best if he died. Shortly thereafter, he did, within months. But while he was alive he offered this suffering to God for the Church.

Mother Teresa underwent extensive and expensive medical intervention through her later years. She accepted the outcome as God’s will.

So did St. Teresa of the Andes and hundreds of other mystics and saints.

The point is that one does not stand by and let the body suffer, even a cold, without intervention. One acts in defence of the body. The virtuous path is to accept the outcome as the will of God, without murmuring, without complaints and without despairing of God’s mercy. What makes a Christian a saint is not suffering, but how he or she deals with suffering. All of the saints knew that they had to accept intervention for their physical ailments. They did not like the attention, but they accepted the intervention as part of obedience and humility.

Even the simple act of taking a Tylenol for a headache can be a virtuous act of humility. The soul accepts that life is finite and that suffering is part of life. It responds to the headache with great humility, because it reminds us that we are finite creatures and without assistance we are nothing. The act of denying ourselves a Tylenol to relieve a headache to practice virtue is really spiritual pride, just the opposite of what we want to achieve. We want to achieve humility. To achieve humility we must accept that we are fragile creatures. We must accept the help that God has placed at our disposals with gratitude and recognition of our dependence on others and God. We bow to our physical ailments because they remind us of our poverty before God.

True holiness is not about suffering. True holiness is about humility. Sometimes, humility requires that we accept suffering, but it never demands that we impose suffering on us or others to show how sinful we are.

Even those of us who are in vows do not starve ourselves when we fast or injure our bodies when we do physical penance. In fact, all of the Holy Rules in the Church forbid such practices: Augustinian, Carmelite, Franciscan, Basilian, and Benedictine.

There have been cases and times when people ignored the warnings of the holy founders of religious families. They paid the price. They did not reach sanctity. They often turned to heretics, because they adopted an attitude of superiority to others and to the Church.

We have to be very careful how we interpret physical suffering. The best interpretation of Paul’s theology of suffering is found in the teachings and life of Francis of Assisi. I would strongly recommend that you read Master and Disciple by St. Bonaventure and the Writings of Francis and Clare by Regis Armstrong, OFM, Cap.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂

PS Since we have gotten off track with the thread, I would be happy to continue this conversation via PM, if you are agreable to it.

Brother JR
 
Mystical theology is very clear on suffering. It bases its truths on the lives of the mystics from the OT to today. The mystics accepted suffering that was the Will of God. This is an act of obedience and of love.
However, suffering was not simply accepted without trying to alleviate it. For example, Francis of Assisi, whom the Church has called the Perfect Christian, underwent several procedures to restore his vision, all of which failed. When they failed, he accepted the outcome as God’s will.
Teresa of Avila had cancer. She too underwent several medical interventions. She was cured the first time around and embarked on her reform of the Carmelite Order. The second time around, the treatments were unsuccessful and she accepted the results as God’s will. She did of cancer.
Pope John Paul II underwent numerous medical interventions for different problems. This is public knowledge. He accepted the results as God’s will. In his case, the interesting thing was when he could no longer speak he said that it would be best if he died. Shortly thereafter, he did, within months. But while he was alive he offered this suffering to God for the Church.
Mother Teresa underwent extensive and expensive medical intervention through her later years. She accepted the outcome as God’s will.
I would argue against none of these actions; and I think you know I wouldn’t.

It is utterly ridiculous that disciplining oneself by refraining from taking a painkiller is pride. You may as well condemn Jesus and the church for recommending fasting.

True holiness is not about any one virtue, it is about all of them. You seem to have a good knowledge of the saints; unless you read highly edited texts, you must know that a great number of them pursued suffering for the good of their souls.

You seem to think that by commending righteous suffering I am recommending self-harm. I have never encouraged the latter; for that indeed is a sin against your body, the temple of the holy spirit. But taking a tylenol is absolutely not a defense of your body. It is a way out of pain. It isn’t even slightly healthy.

Suffering is redemptive. All suffering, be it out of our control or under it, can be used to redeem.

Perhaps via PM is a better idea… though I don’t think this will go on very much longer at all, and perhaps some interested people are following it (small chance, I admit)
 
I would argue against none of these actions; and I think you know I wouldn’t.

It is utterly ridiculous that disciplining oneself by refraining from taking a painkiller is pride. You may as well condemn Jesus and the church for recommending fasting.

True holiness is not about any one virtue, it is about all of them. You seem to have a good knowledge of the saints; unless you read highly edited texts, you must know that a great number of them pursued suffering for the good of their souls.

You seem to think that by commending righteous suffering I am recommending self-harm. I have never encouraged the latter; for that indeed is a sin against your body, the temple of the holy spirit. But taking a tylenol is absolutely not a defense of your body. It is a way out of pain. It isn’t even slightly healthy.

Suffering is redemptive. All suffering, be it out of our control or under it, can be used to redeem.

Perhaps via PM is a better idea… though I don’t think this will go on very much longer at all, and perhaps some interested people are following it (small chance, I admit)
As a theologian and as a religious my job is not to persuade you, only to inform you. I have done the best I can with what I know. It is your job to prove that what mystical theology holds is incorrect.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I would argue against none of these actions; and I think you know I wouldn’t.

It is utterly ridiculous that disciplining oneself by refraining from taking a painkiller is pride. You may as well condemn Jesus and the church for recommending fasting.

True holiness is not about any one virtue, it is about all of them. You seem to have a good knowledge of the saints; unless you read highly edited texts, you must know that a great number of them pursued suffering for the good of their souls.

You seem to think that by commending righteous suffering I am recommending self-harm. I have never encouraged the latter; for that indeed is a sin against your body, the temple of the holy spirit. But taking a tylenol is absolutely not a defense of your body. It is a way out of pain. It isn’t even slightly healthy.

Suffering is redemptive. All suffering, be it out of our control or under it, can be used to redeem.

Perhaps via PM is a better idea… though I don’t think this will go on very much longer at all, and perhaps some interested people are following it (small chance, I admit)
Holiness is also about obedience.
Disobedience is when we say " I want to do this my way, and I’m not going to change."
Will you do what God wants or what you want?
 
Holiness is also about obedience.
Disobedience is when we say " I want to do this my way, and I’m not going to change."
Will you do what God wants or what you want?
What is it I am saying that you disagree with?
 
As a theologian and as a religious my job is not to persuade you, only to inform you. I have done the best I can with what I know. It is your job to prove that what mystical theology holds is incorrect.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
Christians believe that God loves mankind so much that He made Himself human in Jesus in order to redeem mankind:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (Jn 3:16)[1]
It is believed that Jesus freed mankind from the bondage of sin:
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” (Gal 5:1)[1]
Thus one may consider that God paid for mankind’s freedom from sin in His human incarnation:
“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Cor 6:20)[1]
The belief is that the price that God, in Jesus, paid for the redemption of mankind, is the Passion, that is, his suffering and agony that led directly to his Crucifixion. Christians believe that, as members of the Church, they are members of the body of Jesus Christ:
“For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” (Rom 12:4–5)[1]
“Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.” (1 Cor 6:15)[1]
Hence, Orthodox Catholic theology presents the belief that our suffering can be united to that of Christ and so in union with His Passion:
“As they were going out, they met a Cyrenian named Simon; this man they pressed into service to carry his cross.” (Matthew 27:32)
“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” (Col 1:24)[2]
I do want to also clear something else up though. I have never supported inflicting injury on one’s body for the sake of redemptive suffering. You realize that, right? Because most of the arguments against me that you use seem to be based on the notion that I am sinning against the temple of the holy spirit, my body, by practicing mortification of flesh.

And how if fasting any different?
 
Jack: Believe the priest. I had a priest tell me the same thing several years ago. This man was a very charismatic priest, one of greatest people I’ve ever come across. Anyways, that day was probably the best day of my life. I think you are obsessing about your past for some reason. Let go…get on with your current life. You can’t believe the good feeling you;ll get when you finally realize that EVERYTHING in your past (sin wise) is forgiven!!!
 
I must apologize, my initial reaction to the OP’s priest was definitely uncharitable
 
More information, since it seems that’s an issue:

I was confessing things that I’d done in the past which I had not confessed before. I’ve never just said “I’ve committed many sexual sins”: I always try to be at least semi-specific (i.e. “I’ve masturbated about times per/” or whatever).

Specifically, to give you one example of what I was confessing: having very frequent sexual fantasies while bored in class, falling into sexual fantasy while reading the Bible on two occasions (I know that that’s absolutely despicable), and I think one or two other things which weren’t of a sexual nature but I can’t remember them now.

Also, I’m not questioning the priest’s judgment. Sometimes I do get a little scrupulous, and I’m just wondering now, after this confession, whether the priest was right, because he and my normal confessor seem to be in semi-disagreement: the “new guy” said that you explicitly should not confess past sins, while my “regular” says “God doesn’t want you to be worried about things you’ve done in the past,” but doesn’t actually tell me not to confess past sins. He just warns me not to fall into scrupulosity by getting obsessive about it and trying to remember every little thing because I’ll never be able to.

And that said . . .
Yes, you may receive Holy Communion without going to Confession again. This is because the sin has been forgiven in a past Confession since you did not deliberately hold it back. But the next time you go to Confession you need to acknowledge the sin as an expression of your sorrow and repentance.
– Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

Looks like someone already answered my question 🙂

Edit: Noticed some chat about mortification of the flesh. What’s wrong with that? The catechism itself talks about mortification - not as a way of “punishing” yourself for past sins exactly but a sign of penance and a way to better empathize with the suffering of humanity. St. Jerome walked around with a rock he would hit himself with whenever he sinned in some way; it’s a beneficial practice imo.
 
More information, since it seems that’s an issue:

I was confessing things that I’d done in the past which I had not confessed before. I’ve never just said “I’ve committed many sexual sins”: I always try to be at least semi-specific (i.e. “I’ve masturbated about times per/” or whatever).

Specifically, to give you one example of what I was confessing: having very frequent sexual fantasies while bored in class, falling into sexual fantasy while reading the Bible on two occasions (I know that that’s absolutely despicable), and I think one or two other things which weren’t of a sexual nature but I can’t remember them now.

Also, I’m not questioning the priest’s judgment. Sometimes I do get a little scrupulous, and I’m just wondering now, after this confession, whether the priest was right, because he and my normal confessor seem to be in semi-disagreement: the “new guy” said that you explicitly should not confess past sins, while my “regular” says “God doesn’t want you to be worried about things you’ve done in the past,” but doesn’t actually tell me not to confess past sins. He just warns me not to fall into scrupulosity by getting obsessive about it and trying to remember every little thing because I’ll never be able to.

And that said . . .
– Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

Looks like someone already answered my question 🙂

Edit: Noticed some chat about mortification of the flesh. What’s wrong with that? The catechism itself talks about mortification - not as a way of “punishing” yourself for past sins exactly but a sign of penance and a way to better empathize with the suffering of humanity. St. Jerome walked around with a rock he would hit himself with whenever he sinned in some way; it’s a beneficial practice imo.
I would avoid the rock. :rolleyes: I don’t think that’s what the Church means by mortification. She talking about less dangerous things such as fasting, abstinence, extra work, silence instead of TV, internet, video games, etc, extra time your knees in prayer (unless you have some kind of bone or muscle problem that would be aggravated).

The purpose of mortification is to do penance and to identify with Christ on the cross, not to hurt oneself. Avoid rocks. 😃

If you want to see a good example of mortification look at the monastic life, such as the Carthusians, Trappists, Carmelites, Capuchins, Cistercians. You can always borrow from these religious families. One does not have to be a member to learn from them.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Also, I’m not questioning the priest’s judgment. Sometimes I do get a little scrupulous, and I’m just wondering now, after this confession, whether the priest was right, because he and my normal confessor seem to be in semi-disagreement: the “new guy” said that you explicitly should not confess past sins, while my “regular” says “God doesn’t want you to be worried about things you’ve done in the past,” but doesn’t actually tell me not to confess past sins. He just warns me not to fall into scrupulosity by getting obsessive about it and trying to remember every little thing because I’ll never be able to.
Jack,
Those 2 priests were essentially telling you the same thing. Let me explain: One priest says “don’t confess them” another priest says “don’t think on them.”

Think of it this way. If you follow the counsel of the 2nd priest, you aren’t thinking/worrying about them, that means that you are also following the counsel of the 1st priest who said “don’t confess them.” If you don’t think on them, and don’t try to remember them, then you’re necessarily not confessing them.

The only difference is that each priest came to his own determination as to at-what-point he indicated “that’s sufficient” (in whatever words were used).

I’m not going to advise you on what to do, but let me point out a few facts.
  1. There is no inconsistency in what those 2 priests are telling you–they’re saying the same thing in different words, and using 2 different approaches to arrive at the exact same conclusion.
  2. If you do not dwell on the sins you committed before your re-conversion (does such a word exist?), but instead allow them to disappear from your memory, as they have been forgiven by God, you will not only be abiding by what both priests are trying to tell you, but more importantly you will be much more at peace with yourself, and have a stronger, more mature relationship with God.
Both priests have your spiritual well being as their priority.

When it comes to scrupulosity, the problem is not that one will be “trying to remember every little thing because I’ll never be able to.” Rather the problem is that the very act of trying to remember every little thing is itself unhealthy.

Your own words attest to that. You said “every little thing.” Well, since those things are in fact (in your own words now) “little” then you know that they have already been forgiven.

I don’t know Fr. Serpa, and I won’t try to speak on his behalf. What he said is certainly true. But fact is there’s a difference between a general statement like the good Father made on the one hand, and the specific counsel of your priest-confessor addressing you in particular, on the other hand.

Example:

Doctors tell us, “if you have a headache, take an aspirin” They’re right.

My doctor tells me "don’t take aspirin, you’re allergic to them. " He’s right.

Some sins, of their very nature, occur more frequently than others. If I confess the sin of anger and make a good faith effort to approximate the number of times I’ve committed that sin, then all the occurances of it have been forgiven. I need not go back to ammend the “number.” In fact, I should not, because doing so only makes me dwell on the sin, and then the anger itself resurfaces.

Please remember this: the priest to whom you are confessing at that moment is the one who has the answer. Do what he tells you and you won’t have to worry.
 
Everyone (especially Jack)

I’m not trying to get in some kind of “cheap shot” by having the last word, but I am concerned that the thread here has become a little too personal.

It’s one thing to talk about the Sacrament of Confession, it’s another to talk about a particular confession.

I believe we all should limit our future postings to be strictly about the Sacrament itself, and absolutely avoid any references to persons or private information, even if it has already been posted.

Thanks
 
As long as you aren’t injuring yourself, I don’t see anything wrong with the rock. I mean, I admit it *sounds *a bit harsh, but to immediately condemn it based on that I think is kind of a knee-jerk reaction.

I can’t help but post this now, since I was reminded of it while reading Matthew yesterday
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell fire.
I know that most say this is not literal advice… and I suppose it is not… but let’s take a step back for a minute. The second sentence there is an extremely obvious literal statement.Let’s not forget that.
 
As long as you aren’t injuring yourself, I don’t see anything wrong with the rock. I mean, I admit it *sounds *a bit harsh, but to immediately condemn it based on that I think is kind of a knee-jerk reaction.

I can’t help but post this now, since I was reminded of it while reading Matthew yesterday

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell fire

I know that most say this is not literal advice… and I suppose it is not… but let’s take a step back for a minute. The second sentence there is an extremely obvious literal statement.Let’s not forget that.
Danny, my friend in Christ,

The entire statement is not to be taken literally. Remember the Resurrection of the Body?

It is certainly to be heeded, but by no means whatever is it literal.
 
Danny, my friend in Christ,

The entire statement is not to be taken literally. Remember the Resurrection of the Body?

It is certainly to be heeded, but by no means whatever is it literal.
How can one possibly argue that it is better to burn in hell than to lose an eye? All Christ is doing there is disagreeing with that.
 
Please stay on topic, everyone. Take any side discussions to new or existing threads in the appropriate fora. Thank you all.
 
Jack,
  1. There is no inconsistency in what those 2 priests are telling you–they’re saying the same thing in different words, and using 2 different approaches to arrive at the exact same conclusion.
This is true from a spiritual director’s point of view as well.
  1. If you do not dwell on the sins you committed before your re-conversion (does such a word exist?), but instead allow them to disappear from your memory, as they have been forgiven by God, you will not only be abiding by what both priests are trying to tell you, but more importantly you will be much more at peace with yourself, and have a stronger, more mature relationship with God.
A more mature relationship with God focusses on God’s love for us and on his mercy. In this case it would be more productive to contemplate on the mercy of God. The highest form of contemplation dwells on God’s virtues, not our sins.
When it comes to scrupulosity, the problem is not that one will be “trying to remember every little thing because I’ll never be able to.” Rather the problem is that the very act of trying to remember every little thing is itself unhealthy.
Scrupulosity can be a form of spiritual pride that comes before the next fall. It can be a sign of a mind that believes that one has outdone God’s generosity and mercy by means of one’s sin. In no way can this be good Christian spirituality.
I don’t know Fr. Serpa, and I won’t try to speak on his behalf. What he said is certainly true. But fact is there’s a difference between a general statement like the good Father made on the one hand, and the specific counsel of your priest-confessor addressing you in particular, on the other hand.
It is always good spiritual practice to follow the guidance of one’s confessor. If we look at Christian spirituality through the ages, the great mystics always followed the advice of their spiritual directors and their confessors. These men and women were not infallible. However, the saints believed that Christ spoke through them and that if there were error in their guidance, the Holy Spirit would provide further guidance. At some point every individual must detach from his or her opinions and make a leap in faith that God wants only our good and will not abandon us.
Some sins, of their very nature, occur more frequently than others. If I confess the sin of anger and make a good faith effort to approximate the number of times I’ve committed that sin, then all the occurances of it have been forgiven. I need not go back to ammend the “number.” In fact, I should not, because doing so only makes me dwell on the sin, and then the anger itself resurfaces.
The spiritual journey is stunted when we dwell on what is in the past and has already been forgiven. The soul cannot move toward full union with the Divine when it is weighed down by unhealthy memories. The Desert Fathers and Mothers were very conscious of this. For this reason they confessed their sins, did penance and removed themselves away from the point of sin. They did not go into the desert to dwell on their sins, but to hear the voice of God in silence. One need not go to a geographical desert, but one does need to move into a state of mind where one is open to God’s voice and shuts out the voice of the past.

There was an old discipline in many monastic communities that prohibited monks and nuns from ever speaking of their lives before entering the monastery. The reason was as you say, Father, to avoid awakening old “demons” that led to sin.
Please remember this: the priest to whom you are confessing at that moment is the one who has the answer. Do what he tells you and you won’t have to worry.
At that moment, the priest in the confessional is Christ. Regardless of the priest’s personality, theological orientation or personal beliefs, it is Christ who is speaking. Unless the priest is encouraging the person to sin, there is no reason to avoid following his counsel. In the end, it is the priest who must face God for the guidance that he provides in confession, not the penitent.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Everyone (especially Jack)

I’m not trying to get in some kind of “cheap shot” by having the last word, but I am concerned that the thread here has become a little too personal.

It’s one thing to talk about the Sacrament of Confession, it’s another to talk about a particular confession.

I believe we all should limit our future postings to be strictly about the Sacrament itself, and absolutely avoid any references to persons or private information, even if it has already been posted.

Thanks
I agree with you, Father. Matters of confession should be left in the confessional or discussed with one’s spiritual director, not on a forum.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
At that moment, the priest in the confessional is Christ. Regardless of the priest’s personality, theological orientation or personal beliefs, it is Christ who is speaking.
Is this really Catholic teaching though? I admit there’s a lot I don’t know, but I will say I haven’t come across anything putting it that bluntly. Is there a catechism quote/canon law piece/encyclical/etc. that I don’t know about?
 
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