A private matter

[christmary4ever]

Gay marriage is clearly aginst scripture. But how does one makes the case for those who
do not believe scriptures and believes that this is a private matter that does not affect
anyone but the party concerned.

 

[Julian0404]

The TRUTH exists outside of personal opinion. We each make many choices in our day and our lives, and even if those choices are “relative” to our own formed conscience and opinion, that does not alter or cause the truth to be moot or void.
Therefore, privacy lasts until a person stands before GOD on their judgement day.

 

[markomalley]

Gay marriage is clearly aginst scripture. But how does one makes the case for those who
do not believe scriptures and believes that this is a private matter that does not affect
anyone but the party concerned.

You can appeal to their law written on their hearts (a/k/a the “natural law”). Homosexual acts are clearly in violation of the natural law. Go back and look at the original purpose of marriage: to give societal sanction and blessing on a union of a man and woman for the purpose of providing a stable family within which children can be raised. While it is possible that a man and a woman might not be capable of fecundity, it is simply biologically impossible for a man and a man or a woman and a woman to have a fecund relationship.

Most societies that are seriously considering giving sanction to “same sex” marriage also happen to have appalling fertility rates, potentially only being buoyed up by immigration (and once the immigrants are inculturated, their birth rates plummet as well). That could be used to show how much the concept of marriage and family, in general, have been degraded in the society whereof you speak, as well. Divorce, contraception, abortion, and the like changes society at large. Homosexuality is just another rung on the ladder the society is climbing toward eventual destruction.

Good luck to you, though. I say that because by the time somebody’s mind has been perverted enough to reject the Scriptures and embrace the obviously perverse concept of “marriage” between two members of the same sex, they are pretty well gone (without the intervention of the Holy Spirit). Consider the following verse:
[BIBLEDRB]Rom 1:28[/BIBLEDRB]
So likely the best thing you could do would be to pray for them.

 

[thirdworld]

You could say this for a variety of issues. Abortion “don’t like it, don’t get one!” “It’s MY choice!” etc. You can say it for in favor of prostitution too “If you don’t agree with prostitution then don’t pay for sex!” and if one day someone decides getting married to an animal is a legitimate choice then they can say the same thing about that too “If you’re against zoophilia, then don’t participate in it!”

The problem with the “if you don’t agree with or like something then don’t engage in the activity” is that the choices others make don’t just affect them and what is wrong is wrong. Catholics are not to be moral relativists under any circumstances. Murder is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Rape is wrong. Abortion is wrong. Gay “marriage” is wrong. Nothing can change the fact that these things are wrong.

If prostitution were legalized (which it already is in some areas of the country, I think just counties in Nevada but it could be legal elsewhere I’m not sure) it will affect me whether or not I’m involved with it directly. The same with gay marriage. Their choice to imitate valid heterosexual marriage will affect society. It’s not just about them.

Our morals are crashing down before us (in the US…I can only speak for myself and my country but I’m sure it’s the same elsewhere). A woman has the “right” to murder her own child here for any reason. If you have Internet access, you have access to pornography, a deeply misogynist and dysfunctional form of media. Fornication is mainstream and cool. Condoms and birth control are second nature to the sexually active. Christianity is on decline.

Will we let yet another abomination dominate our society?

Yeah we (majority of society) probably will.

But Catholics should not participate.

 

[portarica]

You could say this for a variety of issues. Abortion “don’t like it, don’t get one!” “It’s MY choice!” etc. You can say it for in favor of prostitution too “If you don’t agree with prostitution then don’t pay for sex!” and if one day someone decides getting married to an animal is a legitimate choice then they can say the same thing about that too “If you’re against zoophilia, then don’t participate in it!”

The problem with the “if you don’t agree with or like something then don’t engage in the activity” is that the choices others make don’t just affect them and what is wrong is wrong. Catholics are not to be moral relativists under any circumstances. Murder is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Rape is wrong. Abortion is wrong. Gay “marriage” is wrong. Nothing can change the fact that these things are wrong.

If prostitution were legalized (which it already is in some areas of the country, I think just counties in Nevada but it could be legal elsewhere I’m not sure) it will affect me whether or not I’m involved with it directly. The same with gay marriage. Their choice to imitate valid heterosexual marriage will affect society. It’s not just about them.

Our morals are crashing down before us (in the US…I can only speak for myself and my country but I’m sure it’s the same elsewhere). A woman has the “right” to murder her own child here for any reason. If you have Internet access, you have access to pornography, a deeply misogynist and dysfunctional form of media. Fornication is mainstream and cool. Condoms and birth control are second nature to the sexually active. Christianity is on decline.

Will we let yet another abomination dominate our society?

Yeah we (majority of society) probably will.

But Catholics should not participate.

Why do catholics fear gay marriage so much? We know it will not be allowed in our faith. We know it causes no harm to our marriages and it doesn’t change the relationship between gay people in a negative manner.

If gayness itself was so bad, why does our church have one of the highest representations of gay people in positions within the hierarchy? Its sort of weird that we take so much advise from gay people when we attend mass or read the writings of bishops in the newspapers of our dioceses, yet we reject the same type of people when they are civilians. And even beyond that rejection we make the attacks personal.

If we don’t want to marry gay people in our church because we are only comfortable having them marry us and not get married themselves for traditions sale, that’s OK the church makes the rules. But to insist that even outside of the church that we can say what the gays can and can’t do seems disingenuous when the church has removed the glass ceiling on promoting gays to positions in the hierarchy.

Peace

 

[lutherlic]

Why do catholics fear gay marriage so much? We know it will not be allowed in our faith. We know it causes no harm to our marriages and it doesn’t change the relationship between gay people in a negative manner.

If gayness itself was so bad, why does our church have one of the highest representations of gay people in positions within the hierarchy? Its sort of weird that we take so much advise from gay people when we attend mass or read the writings of bishops in the newspapers of our dioceses, yet we reject the same type of people when they are civilians. And even beyond that rejection we make the attacks personal.

If we don’t want to marry gay people in our church because we are only comfortable having them marry us and not get married themselves for traditions sale, that’s OK the church makes the rules. But to insist that even outside of the church that we can say what the gays can and can’t do seems disingenuous when the church has removed the glass ceiling on promoting gays to positions in the hierarchy.

Peace

I am not sure what you are alleging here. Are you saying that there are people with same sex attraction in the Church? That is true and we have great empathy for their suffering.

Are you saying that some clergy are breaking their vows of celibacy and engaging in homosexual acts? That too may be the case, but where it is it must be addressed for the serious sin and scandal it is. It certainly doesn’t change the truth of Catholic teaching.

Sex outside of marriage is sinful. We are opposed to sin by Catholics and non-Catholics alike. It is not possible for people of the same sex to be married to each other. This is not really all that complicated.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Why do catholics fear gay marriage so much? We know it will not be allowed in our faith. We know it causes no harm to our marriages and it doesn’t change the relationship between gay people in a negative manner. How do we ‘know’ it causes no harm and doesn’t change the relationship in a negative manner? We don’t ‘know’ this at all. You simply want to assume this is the case.

If gayness itself was so bad, why does our church have one of the highest representations of gay people in positions within the hierarchy? You do, of course not only have documentation of your assertion, as well as documentation that this so-called’ high representation is ‘because’ of church teaching, not IN SPITE OF church teaching. Right? Its sort of weird that we take so much advise from gay people when we attend mass or read the writings of bishops in the newspapers of our dioceses, yet we reject the same type of people when they are civilians. And even beyond that rejection we make the attacks personal. I really would like to see your documentation of this. Furthermore, I’d like to see how you play this off against any other sin which ‘most’ priests engage in. I’m sure that ‘most’ priests, like the rest of us, will lie. So gee, isn’t it ‘weird’ that we take advice and go to mass and read yadda yadda yet we ‘reject’ liars who are civilians? Or how about overeating? How about anger, how about PRIDE? Why is it ‘only’ the supposed ‘gayness’ that you’re addressing? And again, I really want to see that documentation that not only does the Church have a high percentage of ‘gays’ (and practicing at that), but that it is the settled policy of the Church to ordain and promote such people. . .oh wait, I don’t think you’re going to find that documentation at all. . .

If we don’t want to marry gay people in our church because we are only comfortable having them marry us and not get married themselves for traditions sale, that’s OK the church makes the rules. Epic fail here. GOD makes the rules, the Church simply keeps on telling the world what God has said, particularly when the world doesn’t WANT to hear, but really needs to. But to insist that even outside of the church that we can say what the gays can and can’t do seems disingenuous when the church has removed the glass ceiling on promoting gays to positions in the hierarchy. Finally, that last is a glaring example of a logical fallacy. You’re saying, “The Church did X (promotes gays to the hierachy” so it’s disingenous for them to oppress them outside. . .but BUT BUT, your premise is unproven. Your opinion does not Church policy make. You have no facts to support your first premise so your conclusion is totally invalid.

Peace

 

[portarica]

I am not sure what you are alleging here. Are you saying that there are people with same sex attraction in the Church? That is true and we have great empathy for their suffering.

Are you saying that some clergy are breaking their vows of celibacy and engaging in homosexual acts? That too may be the case, but where it is it must be addressed for the serious sin and scandal it is. It certainly doesn’t change the truth of Catholic teaching.

Sex outside of marriage is sinful. We are opposed to sin by Catholics and non-Catholics alike. It is not possible for people of the same sex to be married to each other. This is not really all that complicated.

No I am saying that we catholics have nothing to fear from gay people getting married. It presents no risk of harm to our church , to our marriages or to how catholics live.

The fear of gays and gayness, however, does cause harm to catholics both gay and straight. It leads to catholic kids committing suicide , even as we have one of the most gay hierarchies of any organization not specifically made up of gays.

Perhaps if we toned down the vitriol against gays we could focus a little more on treating all of the least like they may be Jesus in the guise of the least.

Maybe then we could get better traction on the issues of real import -like making abortion obsolete or giving every child a real opportunity to thrive.

Peace

 

[Aboveallbereal]

Gay marriage is clearly aginst scripture. But how does one makes the case for those who
do not believe scriptures and believes that this is a private matter that does not affect
anyone but the party concerned.

It is fundamentally to misunderstand the nature of marriage to suppose it can ever be “a private matter”. Never mind the homosexual angle. Look at normal “real” marriage. Such marriages are public events. Contracts with three parties: the husband, the wife and society. Private marriage is oxymoronic.

 

[portarica]

Gay marriage is clearly aginst scripture. But how does one makes the case for those who
do not believe scriptures and believes that this is a private matter that does not affect
anyone but the party concerned.

Most of the stuff about homosexuality comes from Lev. As does the prohibition about eating shrimp and pork. People learned that properly prepared shrimp and pork do not kill and Lev was found to be false. People eventually will learn that gays being married or sharing other contractual arrangements will not kill us either and more of Lev. will be jettisoned.

Peace

 

[RosaryFan]

Gay marriage is clearly aginst scripture. But how does one makes the case for those who
do not believe scriptures and believes that this is a private matter that does not affect
anyone but the party concerned.

Marriage is not a private matter. The strength of our society is built on the foundation of the family. Should we then allow people to marry their sisters, daugthers, sons, dogs, goldfish??

Homosexuality is an abomination and a perversion of the natural order for which marriage is intended - to procreate, form families which produce children who are functional in society and allow the human race to continue.

 

[christmary4ever]

Why do catholics fear gay marriage so much? We know it will not be allowed in our faith. We know it causes no harm to our marriages and it doesn’t change the relationship between gay people in a negative manner.

If gayness itself was so bad, why does our church have one of the highest representations of gay people in positions within the hierarchy? Its sort of weird that we take so much advise from gay people when we attend mass or read the writings of bishops in the newspapers of our dioceses, yet we reject the same type of people when they are civilians. And even beyond that rejection we make the attacks personal.

If we don’t want to marry gay people in our church because we are only comfortable having them marry us and not get married themselves for traditions sale, that’s OK the church makes the rules. But to insist that even outside of the church that we can say what the gays can and can’t do seems disingenuous when the church has removed the glass ceiling on promoting gays to positions in the hierarchy.

Are catholics really scared of gays?
did Christ who founded our church ordained that our moral teachings be confined to ourselves
who believes it? why cannot we promote our faith just like champions of gay marriage does?
If there are gay bishops does this invalidate the church teachings on the evil of homosexual acts? Is the truthfulness of Church teachings dictated by christ dependent upon the ability
of catholics to obey it? interesting isn’t it?

Peace

 

[portarica]

christmary4ever:
Christmary4ever, you asked are catholics really scared of gays?

We’ll it seems we are because it is frequently noted that if gay marriage is allowed our marriages are in danger of being weakened .

We are probably really not scared of gays because we have so many gay priests and bishops, so on one level we listen to what they say. But then we listen to all these gay people say how dangerous being gay is, so it could make one wonder about stuff.

And our gay people get to take the church or Mary or Jesus as spouses so I guess they are OK with the idea of gay or bisexual marriages on a spiritual level.

Maybe they are afraid that if there is a safe place outside of the church for gay people, they won’t need to become priests to be accepted. There are not as many mothers who think "their sons would be great priests, wink wink " as there were in the past , so maybe that is the case.

Peace

 

[MoonChild02]

Most of the stuff about homosexuality comes from Lev. As does the prohibition about eating shrimp and pork. People learned that properly prepared shrimp and pork do not kill and Lev was found to be false. People eventually will learn that gays being married or sharing other contractual arrangements will not kill us either and more of Lev. will be jettisoned.

Peace

False.
Romans 1:25-28, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.”

1 Corinthians 6:9-10, “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

1 Timothy 1:8-11, “We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law, with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, the unchaste, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.”

Also see Genesis 19:1-29, which is too long to post here. It is the story of how the men of Sodom demanded Lot send out the angels of the Lord, who appeared in the guise of men, to have relations with them, and how God destroyed the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah for their sinfulness.

Therefore, the Biblical condemnation of homosexual intimacy is not only, or even mainly, in Leviticus. Also, being that God has destroyed cultures for this reason (including pagan Rome), and not just Sodom and Gomorrah, we can’t be sure that gay marriage won’t kill us.

 

[MoonChild02]

And our gay people get to take the church or Mary or Jesus as spouses so I guess they are OK with the idea of gay or bisexual marriages on a spiritual level.

No. The religious take only God as a spouse, but God does not have a gender, because God is a spirit. We refer to God in the masculine because that is how He defines Himself. God is not a corporeal being (except for in the person of Jesus, Who is male), and therefore does not have a biological gender. Therefore, priests being married to God are not homosexuals.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
370 In no way is God in man’s image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective “perfections” of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband (Cf. Is 49:14-15; 66: 13; Ps 131:2-3; Hos 11:1-4; Jer 3:4- 19).

 

[St_Francis]

Gay marriage is clearly aginst scripture. But how does one makes the case for those who
do not believe scriptures and believes that this is a private matter that does not affect
anyone but the party concerned.

The first thing is that you will probably not be able to change this person’s mind.

The second thing is that marriage is not at all a private matter, marriage is the foundation of society because from marriage we get stable families which produce and raise children who will function well in society.

We can allow the state of marriage to deteriorate even further than it has as the result of abc and abortion, or we can keep it from getting worse, and then work on strengthening it, which will also strengthen our society. Concerned about children in our society? Children from what we used to call broken homes are much more likely themselves to be broken… committing suicide more, being jailed more, etc.

 

[St_Francis]

Christmary4ever, you asked are catholics really scared of gays?

We’ll it seems we are because it is frequently noted that if gay marriage is allowed our marriages are in danger of being weakened .

We are probably really not scared of gays because we have so many gay priests and bishops, so on one level we listen to what they say. But then we listen to all these gay people say how dangerous being gay is, so it could make one wonder about stuff.

And our gay people get to take the church or Mary or Jesus as spouses so I guess they are OK with the idea of gay or bisexual marriages on a spiritual level.

Maybe they are afraid that if there is a safe place outside of the church for gay people, they won’t need to become priests to be accepted. There are not as many mothers who think "their sons would be great priests, wink wink " as there were in the past , so maybe that is the case.

Peace

I’m looking for the evidence for your assertion that most or all (?) priests, etc., suffer from SSA.

And I will also be interested to see your answers to the rest of ChristMary4ever’s questions, which are:

Did Christ who founded our church ordaid that our moral teachings be confined to ourselves?

Who believes it?
Why cannot we promote our faith just like champions of gay marriage do?

If there are gay bishop,s does this invalidate the church teachings on the evil of homosexual acts? Is the truthfulness of Church teachings dictated by Christ dependent upon the ability of catholics to obey it?

Interesting isn’t it?

 

[elts1956]

It is fundamentally to misunderstand the nature of marriage to suppose it can ever be “a private matter”. Never mind the homosexual angle. Look at normal “real” marriage. Such marriages are public events. Contracts with three parties: the husband, the wife and society. Private marriage is oxymoronic.

Uh, let’s change that a bit. Marriages are public events, (sometimes). Contracts with three parties: the man, the woman and God. No God, no Sacrament of Marriage.

 

[elts1956]

Why do catholics fear gay marriage so much? We know it will not be allowed in our faith. We know it causes no harm to our marriages and it doesn’t change the relationship between gay people in a negative manner.

If gayness itself was so bad, why does our church have one of the highest representations of gay people in positions within the hierarchy? Its sort of weird that we take so much advise from gay people when we attend mass or read the writings of bishops in the newspapers of our dioceses, yet we reject the same type of people when they are civilians. And even beyond that rejection we make the attacks personal.

If we don’t want to marry gay people in our church because we are only comfortable having them marry us and not get married themselves for traditions sale, that’s OK the church makes the rules. But to insist that even outside of the church that we can say what the gays can and can’t do seems disingenuous when the church has removed the glass ceiling on promoting gays to positions in the hierarchy.

Peace

, “why does our church have one of the highest representations of gay people in positions within the hierarchy?” Sources please. Without sources this is only an opinion.

 

[portarica]

I’m looking for the evidence for your assertion that most or all (?) priests, etc., suffer from SSA.

And I will also be interested to see your answers to the rest of ChristMary4ever’s questions, which are:

Did Christ who founded our church ordaid that our moral teachings be confined to ourselves?

Who believes it?
Why cannot we promote our faith just like champions of gay marriage do?

If there are gay bishop,s does this invalidate the church teachings on the evil of homosexual acts? Is the truthfulness of Church teachings dictated by Christ dependent upon the ability of catholics to obey it?

Interesting isn’t it?

I didn’t say all or most priests or bishops are gay, but the priesthood is more gay that typical society. You can find the stats just by googling and you can decide if the church is just more gay than society or very much more gay depending on the study.

The point isn’t that we can’t believe gay priests or bishops or even the pope if he was gay. The point is that we take advise from gay clerics and bishops all the time and that might say something about how despite the fact that we believe in an institution that is pretty gay or very gay, we disparage the gays quite a bit.

Peace