A profound Article worth careful reading

[OneSheep]

ALERT –
It has come to my attention that I must immediately respond to this item which is also in post 109.

You forgot to correct Pope Benedict, Granny, that was the most important part of post 109.

Here is another quote:

Yet God’s measure of justice is different from ours and if he sees good faith or blameless ignorance he saves even those who had been anxious to fight him in their lives. We believers should prepare ourselves for surprises in this regard.

vatican.va/liturgical_year/holy-week/2009/documents/holy-week_homily-fr-cantalamessa_20090410_en.html

There is such thing as blameless ignorance, Granny. I do not blame Adam, Eve, or anyone else for that matter. If you wish to blame people, that is your choice. I have never seen a case of “blameworthy ignorance”. If a person chooses ignorance, they do so out of ignorance, lack of awareness.

Forgive. Understand. Forgive.

 

[OneSheep]

Here is one worth repeating. After all, we are coming upon the Sabbath. It is time to banish all fear. I clarified a couple points:

The Anatomy of a Witch Hunt

1. Make a claim that there are fellow humans who intend ill, that they are doing it clandestinely with “stealth”. Promote fear.
2. Refrain from defining the parameters. Demonize the fellow humans and make the means of identification as vague as possible. “modern Arianists are different…” “they don’t even know that they are arianists”
3. Establish proof in terms of behaviors that are contrary to your own preferences “He does not crawl” or “He does not say harsh enough things from the pulpit” or “he thinks the CCC could use some modification” or “He is too caught up in trying to be nice.”
4. If anyone calls the question to task or asks for real evidence, accuse the person of being a witch.

Amazingly enough, this can even happen in the realm of Christianity, where every day we say “as we forgive those who trespass against us” and the gospel says, “if you hold anything against anyone, forgive the person.”

I repeat here, because this is a matter worth addressing, so important that we may need to bring in a Bishop or other of authority to put an end to this.

Ask yourself these questions:

A. Are there really “stealth arianists”? And if so, whom?

B. Once you have figured out the “whom”, ask yourself, “do I hold something against this person or group of people?” Be honest.

C. If you do hold something against someone, use the gift of Understanding. Ask “why does the person do this?” “why does the person say this?” When you have come to the point that you realize that if you had the same experience and awareness as the other, you could have said or done the same as your enemy, and you no longer hold anything against anyone, then you have forgiven. If you still hold the individual or group in contempt in any way whatsoever, you are not done. This is mature forgiveness.

So, if there are truly “stealth arianists”, forgive first. In addition, the Gospel clearly lines out what we are to do when we have a conflict with someone. What is lined out does not include broadcasting accusations.

In fact, it is time for me to go straight to Fr. Heilman. I think I will!

Basta!

 

[simpleas]

Here is one worth repeating. After all, we are coming upon the Sabbath. It is time to banish all fear. I clarified a couple points:

The Anatomy of a Witch Hunt

1. Make a claim that there are fellow humans who intend ill, that they are doing it clandestinely with “stealth”. Promote fear.
2. Refrain from defining the parameters. Demonize the fellow humans and make the means of identification as vague as possible. “modern Arianists are different…” “they don’t even know that they are arianists”
3. Establish proof in terms of behaviors that are contrary to your own preferences “He does not crawl” or “He does not say harsh enough things from the pulpit” or “he thinks the CCC could use some modification” or “He is too caught up in trying to be nice.”
4. If anyone calls the question to task or asks for real evidence, accuse the person of being a witch.

Amazingly enough, this can even happen in the realm of Christianity, where every day we say “as we forgive those who trespass against us” and the gospel says, “if you hold anything against anyone, forgive the person.”

I repeat here, because this is a matter worth addressing, so important that we may need to bring in a Bishop or other of authority to put an end to this.

Ask yourself these questions:

A. Are there really “stealth arianists”? And if so, whom?

B. Once you have figured out the “whom”, ask yourself, “do I hold something against this person or group of people?” Be honest.

C. If you do hold something against someone, use the gift of Understanding. Ask “why does the person do this?” “why does the person say this?” When you have come to the point that you realize that if you had the same experience and awareness as the other, you could have said or done the same as your enemy, and you no longer hold anything against anyone, then you have forgiven. If you still hold the individual or group in contempt in any way whatsoever, you are not done. This is mature forgiveness.

So, if there are truly “stealth arianists”, forgive first. In addition, the Gospel clearly lines out what we are to do when we have a conflict with someone. What is lined out does not include broadcasting accusations.

In fact, it is time for me to go straight to Fr. Heilman. I think I will!

Basta!

This line really cheered me up this am, can’t stop laughing…

1. If anyone calls the question to task or asks for real evidence, accuse the person of being a witch.

Although you may have been serious when you wrote it, and I respect that, still I’m giggling…

 

[simpleas]

I agree we should not have so many extra-ordinary ministers. The Eucharist should be given by consecrated ministers, i.e. priests and deacons.

Father Z’s blog discusses lot of such matter.
Here is one talks about people being deprived of traditional solemn Mass. There are forces in the Church do not want more reverence to the Eucharist. Various sources are pointing to contemporary Arianism. Whoever deny this must think they know better than many priests and bishops who are concerned about this problem.

wdtprs.com/blog/2015/08/you-are-the-periphery-which-can-revitalize-the-church/

I’m not sure if it is “forces” within our church that want to change things, or just people thinking differently.
Certain things have already been adapted or changed slightly with regards to how things were done, but I have never seen any priest at any masses failing to give reverence to Christ.

 

[grannymh]

So, if there are truly “stealth arianists”, forgive first.

In addition, follow Matthew 28: 16-20 – – – if one knows the difference between “alternative views” which diminish the truth of Christ’s Divine actions on earth and the full truth presented by the Catholic religion. The alternatives include the watering down of Original Sin and denying human responsibility in the two-way friendship relationship between God and an individual person.

Jesus loves and forgives. The human loves and seeks forgiveness.

When the human in the two-way friendship relationship with God deliberately rejects the Presence of God by freely choosing Mortal Sin, then God is left with a broken relationship. When this happens, it is the human’s responsibility to acknowledge his sin, express his sincere sorrow, and humbly seek mercy, forgiveness, and reconciliation.

The Divine Jesus is always present in His love. (John 14: 18) As a sinner, it is up to us to seek the Presence of Jesus, especially in the Catholic Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation and in the Catholic Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

Human to Human forgiveness is very, very important.

Stealth Arianism will play down the value of Christ’s divine power to forgive Mortal Sins. It is precisely because of Christ’s divine power to institute the seven Sacraments, that the Ordained Priest in the Catholic Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation can absolve sins in the name of God. It has always been, since Original Sin, that the Divine is needed to restore any and all broken relationships with the Divine Creator. Humans, great as we are, do not have divine power.

 

[OneSheep]

In addition, follow Matthew 28: 16-20 – – – if one knows the difference between “alternative views” which diminish the truth of Christ’s Divine actions on earth and the full truth presented by the Catholic religion. The alternatives include the watering down of Original Sin and denying human responsibility in the two-way friendship relationship between God and an individual person.

Jesus loves and forgives. The human loves and seeks forgiveness.

When the human in the two-way friendship relationship with God deliberately rejects the Presence of God by freely choosing Mortal Sin, then God is left with a broken relationship. When this happens, it is the human’s responsibility to acknowledge his sin, express his sincere sorrow, and humbly seek mercy, forgiveness, and reconciliation.

The Divine Jesus is always present in His love. (John 14: 18) As a sinner, it is up to us to seek the Presence of Jesus, especially in the Catholic Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation and in the Catholic Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

Human to Human forgiveness is very, very important.

One exception: As far as I have ever seen or experienced, no one has ever freely chosen sin, for their choice has been limited by lack of awareness. Please, Granny, either come up with a real-life example of “freely” choosing sin, or drop it. Your premise dies by lack of example.

Stealth Arianism will play down the value of Christ’s divine power to forgive Mortal Sins. It is precisely because of Christ’s divine power to institute the seven Sacraments, that the Ordained Priest in the Catholic Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation can absolve sins in the name of God. It has always been, since Original Sin, that the Divine is needed to restore any and all broken relationships with the Divine Creator. Humans, great as we are, do not have divine power.

Divine power is within every single human alive. Whatever we do to the least of our peole, that we do unto Him. The sacraments are distributed from divine power, delivered through those chosen.

When humanity does not share in the incarnation, in one alternative we have lost the entire meaning. In one alternative the incarnation was a revelation of unity, not a continuation of dualistic God v. Creation outlook. All power comes from God. In the other alternative, there is the divine, and there is the created, and the split somewhat remains, the divine is within the human, in a very limited sense.

Is the most extreme arianism is pantheistic, and the most extreme dualism manicheaistic(sp)?

And then to throw into the whole works, there is St. Thomas Aquinas:

In God there is no distinction between What He is, i.e. His Essence, and the act wherby He is. (Summa Theologiae Ia, 3, 4) Thus, because God is utterly simple, and not composed, and utterly perfect, he utterly transcends every creature.

However, since no creature exists through itself of itself, every creature is continually kept in existence through continual active causality of God. God is the cause of the being of all things precisely because He is Subsistent Being Itself (ipsum esse subsistens)

Now, since God is being itself by His own essence, created being must be his proper effect....Therefore, as long as a thing has being, so long must God be present to it, according to its mode of being. But being is innermost in each thing and most fundementally present within all things.... Hence it must be that God is in all things and innermostly. (S.T. Ia, 8, 1)

aquinasonline.com/Topics/godtalk.html

IMO, ultimately God is undefinable, and we cannot put him in any conceptual box. It is with humility that we acknowledge and respect people’s notions of the divine. If something we say is true, then it will resonate within others.

Talk of “stealth arianism” resonates with the fear and/or condemnation experienced by some. If we reap such fear and condemnation, that we will sow.

You have chosen, Granny to avoid addressing the words of Pope Benedict in my posts. Please read them.

Thanks for responding.

 

[grannymh]

You have chosen, Granny to avoid addressing the words of Pope Benedict in my posts. Please read them.

Thanks for responding.

I have read Pope Benedict’s words and all the words in this post. Because I have full awareness of what I choose to do, I have chosen not to respond at the moment, maybe someday, maybe never.
I am fully aware that the choice is mine.

I am the real-life example of what you are looking for.

I am fully aware of what a mortal sin is, and I am fully aware of the consequences of a mortal sin, and I am fully aware that I can commit a mortal sin, and I am fully aware of what must be done to return to the State of Sanctifying Grace. In addition, please note, I currently have control of my actions if I choose to sin or if I choose not to sin.

There may come a day when I am not in full control of my actions and when I am not able to think clearly about my actions. Until that day arrives, I remain tough in adherence to the teachings of the Catholic religion, no matter how many easy alternatives pop up.

And I fully choose with full knowledge of what I am about to do – which is to continue to explore stealth Arianism.

 

[Peter_Plato]

One exception: As far as I have ever seen or experienced, no one has ever freely chosen sin, for their choice has been limited by lack of awareness. Please, Granny, either come up with a real-life example of “freely” choosing sin, or drop it. Your premise dies by lack of example.

Sin could not be personal nor could we be held accountable nor culpable for sin unless it were freely chosen. Otherwise, God is completely capricious in terms of assigning guilt and holding us responsible.

It may be a convenient and comforting notion to insist that we do not choose to sin, but we do, your handwaving to the contrary notwithstanding.

 

[OneSheep]

Sin could not be personal nor could we be held accountable nor culpable for sin unless it were freely chosen. Otherwise, God is completely capricious in terms of assigning guilt and holding us responsible.

It may be a convenient and comforting notion to insist that we do not choose to sin, but we do, your handwaving to the contrary notwithstanding.

Hi Peter

Please note that I did not say that people do not choose to sin. I said that when people choose sin they do not know what they are doing. I am trying to get an example of a freely-chosen sin out of Granny, but no luck so far.

Handwaving? I tell you what, feel free to try to come up with an example of a choice to sin when blindness or lack of awareness is not a crucial factor. Then we’ll see who does the most handwaving.

Thanks.

I am the real-life example of what you are looking for.

You are not a sin, so you are not an example. A sin is an act, or sin is a description of alienation, so you cannot* be* a sin in either case.

I am fully aware of what a mortal sin is, and I am fully aware of the consequences of a mortal sin, and I am fully aware that I can commit a mortal sin, and I am fully aware of what must be done to return to the State of Sanctifying Grace. In addition, please note, I currently have control of my actions if I choose to sin or if I choose not to sin.

The only reason you would choose to sin is because lack of awareness or blindness is involved. You have yet to come up with an example to counter what I wrote. You are speaking in terms of generalities and consequences, but have yet to come up with an example of choosing a sin “freely”, without the encumbrance of blindness or lack of awareness.

Give it a shot, Granny! I am very open to being incorrect on this one.

Oops! Did I avoid talking about the ridiculousness of “stealth arianism”, but slipped in this sentence to make sure that the topic is still included in my post? Yes!

 

[OneSheep]

This line really cheered me up this am, can’t stop laughing…

Although you may have been serious when you wrote it, and I respect that, still I’m giggling…

Thanks for putting it all in perspective. Yes, perhaps I was getting a little too serious. (I did write the fellow, btw. I sent him the “anatomy”. Poor bloke is caught up in his fears, I think. I pray for him.)

If you really want to get some laughs, check out the U.S. presidential campaigns!

 

[PTL]

Please keep discussion on the thread topic.
Please check CCC for definition of sin. There are plenty Church teachings on sin.
I smell trolling.

 

[simpleas]

"In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offence, he shall be submitted for capital punishment. … "
— Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians[10]

Wow, they didn’t fool around back then did they?

I’m glad we can at least discuss all these heresy’s and learn from them, with an open mind of course.

 

[grannymh]

The only reason you would choose to sin is because lack of awareness or blindness is involved.Give it a shot, Granny!

When did you invade my anatomical brain?

I am very open to being incorrect on this one.

You win!
The Body Snatchers took me to you so you could determine what I think and do.

*********************** **************

Please PTL, please accept my apology for my crazy sense of humor.

Your post 129 above is not only correct, it is needed.

 

[ynotzap]

romancatholicman.com/stealth-arianism-the-pervasive-heresy-of-our-times/

Considering the analysis of our present condition from columnist Jeffery Kuhner at the Washington Times (reference)

We were born into not the New Babylon, but into the Old Babylon- that is The Fallen State of Humanity from the time of our first parents What we find today is the consequence of this fallen state, a state without the grace of God, which is to say a life without the Holy Spirit. in the lives of every member in society. Society can not give what it doesn’t have. There is only one way to receive the Holy Spirit, and its from Jesus Christ. Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil spirit, Satan and cohorts. Until this takes place, society will continue on its journey to ruination guaranteed

Pope John Paul ll said “the personal encounter with Christ is the ultimate influence for social and economic behavior”

Pope Paul VI said “The encounter will not take place unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Never the less this is always insufficient because the finest witness will prove ineffective if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclamation of the Lord, Jesus Christ by word. There is no evangelization if the Name, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus the Son of God are not proclaimed.”

St.Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles: (Phil: 3:7-11) “I consider all as loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. (1Col: 1: 15-29) …He is before all things, He is the beginning, that in all things, He himself might be pre-eminent…in Him were created all things, for Him, and through Him…” He compared all things apart from Jesus, as dung!

 

[PTL]

Considering the analysis of our present condition from columnist Jeffery Kuhner at the Washington Times (reference)

We were born into not the New Babylon, but into the Old Babylon- that is The Fallen State of Humanity from the time of our first parents What we find today is the consequence of this fallen state, a state without the grace of God, which is to say a life without the Holy Spirit. in the lives of every member in society. Society can not give what it doesn’t have. There is only one way to receive the Holy Spirit, and its from Jesus Christ. Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil spirit, Satan and cohorts. Until this takes place, society will continue on its journey to ruination guaranteed

Pope John Paul ll said “the personal encounter with Christ is the ultimate influence for social and economic behavior”

Pope Paul VI said “The encounter will not take place unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Never the less this is always insufficient because the finest witness will prove ineffective if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclamation of the Lord, Jesus Christ by word. There is no evangelization if the Name, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus the Son of God are not proclaimed.”

St.Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles: (Phil: 3:7-11) “I consider all as loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. (1Col: 1: 15-29) …He is before all things, He is the beginning, that in all things, He himself might be pre-eminent…in Him were created all things, for Him, and through Him…” He compared all things apart from Jesus, as dung!

Thank you for your post. I totally agree.

Jesus told his disciples to make all nations his followers. How would that be achieved if the truth is not preached?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Hi Peter

Please note that I did not say that people do not choose to sin. I said that when people choose sin they do not know what they are doing. I am trying to get an example of a freely-chosen sin out of Granny, but no luck so far.

Handwaving? I tell you what, feel free to try to come up with an example of a choice to sin when blindness or lack of awareness is not a crucial factor. Then we’ll see who does the most handwaving.

Okay, let’s connect “stealth Arianism” to the problem of ignorance, shall we?

** The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world**. **He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. **He came to his own home, and his own people received him not. But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(John 1:9-13)

What better way of expressing the ignorance of sin than by the expression “the world knew him not?” Also note that Christ is the Word, the Logos, the Light that “enlightens EVERY man.”

This means the truth that needs to be known – the Light – is not something which we create by knowledge – that is Gnosticism. The Truth required to dispel the darkness, to dispel the “ignorance” that enables sin – as you claim – exists within every man. That is clear from “The true light that enlightens every man…was in the world…the world was made through him” YET “…his own people received him not.” Humankind did not welcome the light, preferring darkness and culpable ignorance instead.

This entails that the ignorance that enables sin is not the result of living in the world as an aspect of creation because the world was “made through him” the light itself, and that light “enlightens every man” and indwells in each heart – we were not originally created ignorant in the sense of being oblivious to the Light of God. Blindness, darkness and ignorance are preferred by those who sin as shown by the fact that “his own,” those made in the Imago Dei, “received him not” and chose not to “know him” by their preference for darkness and blindness.

Now, Arianism is the belief – expressed in various ways – that the Son is not “one substance” nor “one in being” with the Father, but a subordinate being, a created being; not God, but a creature.

That would mean John’s Gospel insisting that the “true light” that “enlightens every man” is not really referring to God himself, but some lesser being. To be “enlightened” by the Word, the Truth and the Light is not to be enlightened by God, but by a lesser being, a created being somewhat removed from God – a representation of sorts.

This leads towards a kind of gnostic objective “knowledge of” which gains us access to Christ in a similar manner to which our knowledge of the universe aids us in getting “closer” to its reality.

If Christ is God, the True Light, Being Itself, One with the Father, then we can not have objective knowledge of the Father or Son as a result of our endeavor, but, rather, interiorly as a result of being enlightened by the Light Itself, Being Itself.

Our ignorance or blindness is inexcusible because being enlightened does not depend upon anything we do, but on the Light of God revealing himself to us – God from God, Light from Light – within the very act of our being itself. “The true light that enlightens every man…was in the world…the world was made through him” YET “…his own people received him not.”

Our ignorance is culpable ignorance precisely because it is the result of us turning away from the Light, from God himself. Sin is the very act of making oneself ignorant of the Light of Truth, Goodness Itself.

 

[PTL]

Our ignorance or blindness is inexcusible because being enlightened does not depend upon anything we do, but on the Light of God revealing himself to us – God from God, Light from Light – within the very act of our being itself. “The true light that enlightens every man…was in the world…the world was made through him” YET “…his own people received him not.”

Our ignorance is culpable ignorance precisely because it is the result of us turning away from the Light, from God himself. Sin is the very act of making oneself ignorant of the Light of Truth, Goodness Itself.

Yes, God writes on every human’s heart the knowledge of right and wrong. When a person sins, he choose to do wrong. The definition of mortal sin has three criteria:

1. grave matter
   **2. with full knowledge
2. with full consent**

In the act of contrition we say in the Sacrament of Confession, the words goes like this:

My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart.
**In choosing to do wrong **and failing to do good,
I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things.
I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more,
and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.
Our Savior Jesus Christ suffered and died for us.
In His name, my God, have mercy.
Amen.

A Catholic insists all is well, all is innocent, whoever sins does not know what he is doing is purposely twisting Catechism.

 

[grannymh]

“Now, Arianism is the belief – expressed in various ways – that the Son is not “one substance” nor “one in being” with the Father, but a subordinate being, a created being; not God, but a creature.”

That is the meaning from the time of Arius.

Today, Arianism is called stealth. These thoughts from the link in post 1 are accurate.
"Stealth Arianism follows the same fatal error, but with a twist: while the Arians of the fourth century openly denied Christ’s divinity, today‘s Arians will profess Jesus as God, and yet through their actions deny it. In other words, they don’t even know they are heretics. Many even believe that they are doing God’s work in their attempts to elevate Christ’s humanity at the cost of His divinity.

"You see, once we diminish the identity of Christ as the Son of God, we are left to view Him as simply a historical figure that was a nice guy, a respectable teacher and a good example for how we are to live. Religion is then reduced to a nice organization that does nice things for people as we seek a kind of psychotherapy for self-actualization. "

The “heretics” bit refers back to the actual heresy in the fourth century which is not a common dinner conversation topic. Pius XII used the word danger instead of heresy in paragraph 11 of the encyclical Humani Generis. w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
11. Another danger is perceived which is all the more serious because it is more concealed beneath the mask of virtue. There are many who, deploring disagreement among men and intellectual confusion, through an imprudent zeal for souls, are urged by a great and ardent desire to do away with the barrier that divides good and honest men; these advocate an “eirenism” according to which, by setting aside the questions which divide men, they aim not only at joining forces to repel the attacks of atheism, but also at reconciling things opposed to one another in the field of dogma.

Please notice the words “reconciling things opposed.” In this century, we hear the words “legitimate alternative views” which means promoting opposing views in the Catholic religion as part of reconciling. One of the more popular views promotes the idea that people lack awareness. The promotion of that idea is an attack against human nature and its conscience, which denies the teaching authority of the Catholic religion and consequently diminishes the divine authority of the founder Jesus Christ.

Please follow closely. Jesus Christ is still the good God bringing everyone to heaven. This is the virtue in “mask of virtue.” Obviously, this is correct about the good guy Jesus, etc., In order to please everyone who wants to join a happy big tent, the Catholic teachings about Mortal Sin have to be down played and/or removed. The basic idea is that Jesus may be Divine, but His teachings given to His Catholic Church can be altered and updated to fit the needs of this decade. This promotion of a human alternative view, which alters or overturns divine revelation, is what the post 1 link is referring to as “diminish the identity of Christ as the Son of God.” In other words, Jesus may have founded the Catholic religion; however, humans have the authority to change it to suit their personal preferences.

When humans tell us that it is possible to include alternative views, which are not part of Catholic teaching, it is because certain unnamed public authors, writers, and lay people have lessened the complete divine authority of Jesus to accommodate their personal views. Jesus Christ then appears not to have complete divine authority over His Catholic religion. Diminish is the stealth attack.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, Granny!

My Quote:
"OneSheep:

The only reason you would choose to sin is because lack of awareness or blindness is involved. You have yet to come up with an example to counter what I wrote. You are speaking in terms of generalities and consequences, but have yet to come up with an example of choosing a sin “freely”, without the encumbrance of blindness or lack of awareness.

When did you invade my anatomical brain?
.

Oops! Did I do that? Sorry! I was expressing the application of the premise that you have not provided proof to counter. So, since you cannot come up with an example of a person choosing sin (no names need to be given, of course) are you conceding that I am correct, that lack of awareness and blindness are crucial elements of all sin?

grannymh:

When humans tell us that it is possible to include alternative views, which are not part of Catholic teaching, it is because certain unnamed public authors, writers, and lay people have lessened the complete divine authority of Jesus to accommodate their personal views. Jesus Christ then appears not to have complete divine authority over His Catholic religion. Diminish is the stealth attack.

When St. Anselm presented the theology that involved a debt being owed to God instead of the devil, this presented a profound alternative. When John Duns Scotus presented the theology of the primacy of Christ, that man did not have to sin in order for Christ to come, this presented a profound alternative. When Pope Benedict countered Anselm, he too, presented a profound alternative.

None of these alternatives, Granny, including the first alternative I expressed, which supposedly goes back to St. Augustine, are explicitly condemned, as far as I know. None of these alternatives are arianist, and none of them diminish Jesus’ authority, as they should not.

Jesus Christ remains fully human and fully divine. Alternatives do not diminish Christ’s divinity. In fact, expression that “if alternatives exist, His divinity is diminished” is in itself a “personal view”.

Revelation unfolds, Granny, remember?

Granny, dear, spreading the idea that there are “stealth arianists” to fear without naming people needs to be shown for what it is: sowing fear.

Here is the gospel means of what we are to do instead of sowing fear:

Matthew 18:15-19New International Version (NIV)
Dealing With Sin in the Church

15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,** go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.**

If you have conclusive, unquestionable evidence that there is a “stealth arianist” in this world, do not refrain from action! Write the person and demand that they refrain from diminishing Christ’s divinity. If he or she does not respond to you, let me know, and I will support you Granny. If the person does not listen to the two of us, we go to the church. Be proactive, Granny! We do not have the authority nor the call to sow fear, but we do have the call to correct sin.

I must add, however, that before we even go after the sinner, we must forgive him. That is our first calling in these circumstances.

I forgive everyone involved here who has been sowing fear. It’s okay, but people must either present a solid proof or end. I know of no “stealth arianists”. Again, the gospel provides a way of dealing with these matters, and it appears that Fr. Heilman has chosen an alternative. I do not hold it against him, but there are more Christian ways of behaving, where we do unto others as we would have others do unto us.

Go for it Granny! Find the arianist! I’m with you!

 

[OneSheep]

Okay, let’s connect “stealth Arianism” to the problem of ignorance, shall we?

Good Morning, Peter.

Well, we were discussing sin, I thought. So if “stealth arianism” is a reality, feel free to present a real example of it, (none of this “lack of crawling” or “niceness” ) and we can try to determine if a sin has occurred. Next, we can try to determine if lack of awareness and/or blindness is a factor.

Are you, like Granny, conceding that blindness and lack of awareness are crucial elements of all sin?

Our ignorance or blindness is inexcusible because being enlightened does not depend upon anything we do, but on the Light of God revealing himself to us – God from God, Light from Light – within the very act of our being itself. “The true light that enlightens every man…was in the world…the world was made through him” YET “…his own people received him not.”

This would mean that all of us have perfect enlightenment. None of us has perfect enlightenment. People who “received him not” did so out of lack of awareness. “Knowing” is not everything, Peter, far from it. However, the Gift of Understanding enables mature forgiveness.

Our ignorance is culpable ignorance precisely because it is the result of us turning away from the Light, from God himself. Sin is the very act of making oneself ignorant of the Light of Truth, Goodness Itself.

Okay, let us back up a step on this one. Here is an example to investigate! Yay!

Let us use the Gift of Understanding. Instead of immediately condemning, let’s investigate. We can agree on his responsibility, but let’s figure out how “free” he was to make informed choices.

Why does John Doe turn away from the light?

Give it a shot, Peter.

On the other hand, I have a very busy week ahead, and I am thinking that I am helping to keep this thread alive, so I would rather abandon it. Next week I hope to present a new thread on the “sin” topic, and we can talk about it then. Okay?

Thanks