A Protestant Friend Stumped Me

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A feel ashamed for not being about to explain this one to her. Here’s there passage.
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:16-18 NSAB, bold added)
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This is the famous proof text for the mortal and venial sin distinction. My Protestant friend quickly pointed me to the bold part and claimed that it shows that a person truly born of God would never sin. If one is truly a Christian, then God will preserve him to the end or “keep” him (eternal security).

But now I’m confused. It seems like this Protestant is just attacking the coherence of this passage in general. It clearly states a brother (supposedly Christian) can commit a sin a few verses before John supposedly says it is impossible for a Christian to ever sin.

Let me know any insight you guys have.

Joe.
 
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Are you sure that’s John 5?
I’ve looked it up three times, but I’m not getting those verses
 
1 John 5:18 is rather hard to wrap my head around, and I’m hoping somebody else will jump in for this one.
I mean, I know, in general, that the Bible needs to be read as a whole, not just taking verses here and there out of context.
We know from Scriptures and from our every day experience, that Christians fall into sin.
Proverbs 24:16 says a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again…
Simon was given the name “Peter”, and was told Jesus would build His church upon him. Then Peter went on to deny Him, but was later forgiven…

gotta sign off, will come back later
 
I know some Protestants hold the view of “once saved always saved”, but frankly, “once saved, never sin again” is one I’ve never heard before…
 
So what does 1 John 1:5-10 say? (NASB)
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
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In fact, line 8 and 9 is part of Lutheran Penitential Rite

And continue with 1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
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Also, regarding the line, Haydock mentioned thus:
(1Jn5:18). Sinneth not. [See note on 1Jn3:9] — The generation[5] of God preserveth him, (i.e. the grace of adoption, as long as it remains in the soul; see Chap. iii. 9.) and the wicked one (i.e. the devil) toucheth him not. (Witham)
(1Jn3:9) Whosoever abideth in him, complying with his law, sinneth not; and whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, nor known him; that is, with such a knowledge as is joined with love. (Witham) — Sinneth not; viz. mortally. [See note on 1Jn1:8]
(1Jn1:8) Not that we say or pretend we have no sin;[4] thus truth would not be in us, and we should even make God a liar, who has declared all mankind guilty of sin. We were all born guilty of original sin; we have fallen, and still frequently fall into lesser sins and failings. We can only except from this number our Saviour Christ, who, even as man, never sinned, and his blessed Virgin Mother, by a special privilege, preserved from all kind of sin: and of whom St. Augustine[5] says, “that for the honour of our Lord, when we speak of the holy Virgin Mary, he will have no mention at all made of any sin.” (Witham)
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We should not deceive ourselves: we venilly sin a lot. However, sanctification comes in stages. One at a very near to the end stage quite possibly would not sin in this manner, but of course such a person would probably be a saint, but sainthood is what we all are aiming for, right? I do believe saints have achieved such.
 
That’s possible; because once you realize that mortal sin denies you heaven; it makes you think: No, it’s not worth heaven and certainly not hell.
 
Oh well definitely, mortal sin is something we absolutely can all avoid. I believe many have done such.

Something I recall from the saints: “I would rather die than offend God through my sins.”
We aren’t protestants who believe there’s no way we can avoid sinning and so have to rely on faith alone and what not. It’s not at all impossible.
 
Ain’t that the truth. The knowledge that the gaping maw of hell awaits those who fall into mortal sin… That’s one of the many reasons that I’m Catholic. Sola fide makes no sense at all.
 
Of course we fear hell and God’s punishments, but most of all, we are sorrowful for our sins for they offend God, to paraphrase the Act of Contrition.
 
CampionTheChampion said:
My Protestant friend quickly pointed me to the bold part and claimed that it shows that a person truly born of God would never sin. If one is truly a Christian, then God will preserve him to the end or “keep” him (eternal security).
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Leaving aside the context which others have covered, if someone said the above to me, I would then ask “are you saying that you never sin?” if they answer “yes” then I would respond with “do you realised that you are saying that you are infallible? The only living being that walked on the earth who was free from sin, was Jesus.” If they answer “no” and then carry on with their argument Jestersage has some useful references.

I used to believe that I wasn’t committing any mortal sins e.g. I hadn’t robbed any shops or killed anyone. How foolish I was. Now I realise every uncharitable word robs someone of their standing, their dignity and possibly fulfilling their mission from God etc. I am not jumping down the road of scrupulosity again (God willing I have the sensible amount left) - it is just that the 10 commandments are not simply down to material things.

Just my thoughts.
 
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Read 2 Corinthians 2:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:20 or so. In a real bible, not the funky, totally mod NIV that she probably has. Saint Paul forgave sins in the person of Christ, with the authority of Christ. He had a ministry of reconciliation with God and admonished believers to be reconciled with God.

Does that sound like sin is gone? Or impossible? Your friend is terribly mislead.

Oh, and James 5:16 in which we are admonished to confess our sins to one another.
 
Kei said:
We should not deceive ourselves: we venilly sin a lot. However, sanctification comes in stages. One at a very near to the end stage quite possibly would not sin in this manner, but of course such a person would probably be a saint, but sainthood is what we all are aiming for, right? I do believe saints have achieved such.
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A true saint would never be seeing themselves as sin-free. They would be striving to the end for perfection and would see themselves as sinning frequently, though probably not mortally sinning.
I agree that we can learn to avoid mortal sin. It is not always easy, but it is doable. However, venial sin gets everybody, even saints.
 
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1 John 1:8 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us…

Romans 7:19 I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do–this I keep on doing
 
Wonder why James would give us instructions to confess our sins, one to another, if such were the case.

You don’t have to play the “Bible only” game with Protestants. Plenty of people can use Scripture to support a doctrine, but it’s not as if the historical record is vacant or absent. Confession of sin is a documented reality in the early church, so what your friend is claiming simply isn’t backed up by the practices of the early church.
 
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