A protestant question: Faith without acts is dead?

[Bookcat]

I cam across a question from a protestant that :Catholics believe "Faith without acts is dead"

That only faith is important that doing acts to “earn” God’s love,doesnt God loves us anyway? Isn’t faith alone essential than “doing things or performing things” to earn God acceptance and love? Something like in Islam,where Faith alone isnt enough but performing certain rituals and etc is important to gain God’s love…?

Thankyou…

One receives justification (called initial justification) by grace – via Faith and Baptism. Such is not “earned” by works --be they “of the law” or “good works”.

Then a Christian is to continue to live in Christ – living as a Christian – bearing fruit (by grace --from his life in Christ) — in love and remaining in Christ. Walking in love.

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI on Faith and Works in Paul:

(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

 

[murraymuzz]

I think an under quoted passage about works is this one: Matthew 5:14-16 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven."

But also the works that we need are defined by St. James as works of charity: James 2:15-17 “If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”

While St. Paul says in Romans 3:28 “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.”

The works of the law is referring to the mosaic law. So I really don’t see the logic when a protestant brings up this verse to say Catholics are trying to justify themselves with works of the law, when we don’t practice the mosaic law any longer.

 

[Tunesmith]

The bible says quite a lot concerning faith and works in addition to the subject matter of this thread which is taken from St. James. What you have done is erroneously taken a single verse and elevated above the whole picture painted by the bible. You really can’t do this, you MUST read all verses together, they must all make sense for you. For instance, let me very quickly blow away a faith only belief system right now

I’m not saying it is faith alone that saves you. I’m saying exactly what I said. God does not save us because we earned it by a good deed.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m not saying it is faith alone that saves you. I’m saying exactly what I said. God does not save us because we earned it by a good deed.

But do you preclude deeds as being a necessary component of salvation?

 

[Tunesmith]

But do you preclude deeds as being a necessary component of salvation?

If you live long deeds are required. If you die like the thief on the cross or a deathbed conversion then you can’t do anything good after being converted so those 2 exceptions would be faith alone.
Even the most evil person has some good deeds. Mob bosses have been known to murder people and give money to the church. Are they counted redeemable because of their generosity with money gained from criminal activity?

 

[Bookcat]

Even the most evil person has some good deeds. Mob bosses have been known to murder people and give money to the church. Are they counted redeemable because of their generosity with money gained from criminal activity?

No.

But by if they repent --by the mercy of God --God can restore them.

 

[Tunesmith]

No.

But by if they repent --by the mercy of God --God can restore them.

Certainly!

 

[Bookcat]

C

Pope Benedict XVI on Faith and Works in Paul:

(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

 

[crazzeto]

If you live long deeds are required. If you die like the thief on the cross or a deathbed conversion then you can’t do anything good after being converted so those 2 exceptions would be faith alone.
Even the most evil person has some good deeds. Mob bosses have been known to murder people and give money to the church. Are they counted redeemable because of their generosity with money gained from criminal activity?

But the thief on the Cross did perform works.

1. The work of faith in Christ was performed, because biblically speaking faith is a work
2. The work of repentance, he did have contrition and repentance in the end
3. The work of calling upon Jesus, to remember him when he enters his kingdom.

That’s 3 works right there performed by the thief, just because he didn’t have an opportunity to go to a soup kitchen that doesn’t mean he won’t be saved. Like the bible says, he performed the good works (3 listed) placed before him by God that he should have done. He did do them, there for he was saved.

Just because he was in the process of being horrifically executed for his sins by the state, this doesn’t mean that we don’t have our own good works, placed before us, which we should perform. Take baptism for instance, the thief couldn’t participate in the sacrament due to his imminent death (another work). This however doesn’t mean that we are not required to be baptized for salvation, this of course is the normative mode of salvation. If we believe Christ, then we are compelled to act as the thief did. For him, it was perfect contrition and a cry for mercy in the end, for us it is baptism and a life living by the Christian example.

Just because one has shorter time to perform their works, doesn’t mean that those of us who have greater time only must perform the minimal works shown by the thief. While Christ directed his parable of the fields hands, hired at many points in the day to work the fields of the land owner, and all receiving the same pay at the pharasy, that doesn’t mean there isn’t another lesson here.

Like the field hands we are hired earlier in the day, and we work longer and harder. But who are we to complain against the thief, who was hired late in the day, and worked shorter and bore less burden of living the faith day to day (his cross is another matter)?

 

[Bookcat]

But the thief on the Cross did perform works.

1. The work of faith in Christ was performed, because biblically speaking faith is a work
2. The work of repentance, he did have contrition and repentance in the end
3. The work of calling upon Jesus, to remember him when he enters his kingdom.

That’s 3 works right there performed by the thief, just because he didn’t have an opportunity to go to a soup kitchen that doesn’t mean he won’t be saved. Like the bible says, he performed the good works (3 listed) placed before him by God that he should have done. He did do them, there for he was saved.

Just because he was in the process of being horrifically executed for his sins by the state, this doesn’t mean that we don’t have our own good works, placed before us, which we should perform. Take baptism for instance, the thief couldn’t participate in the sacrament due to his imminent death (another work). This however doesn’t mean that we are not required to be baptized for salvation, this of course is the normative mode of salvation. If we believe Christ, then we are compelled to act as the thief did. For him, it was perfect contrition and a cry for mercy in the end, for us it is baptism and a life living by the Christian example.

Just because one has shorter time to perform their works, doesn’t mean that those of us who have greater time only must perform the minimal works shown by the thief. While Christ directed his parable of the fields hands, hired at many points in the day to work the fields of the land owner, and all receiving the same pay at the pharasy, that doesn’t mean there isn’t another lesson here.

Like the field hands we are hired earlier in the day, and we work longer and harder. But who are we to complain against the thief, who was hired late in the day, and worked shorter and bore less burden of living the faith day to day (his cross is another matter)?

Such is confusing the matter…

Faith is not a “work” …baptism is not a “work”…etc.

A person does NOT enter into a state of (initial) justification by ANY “works” of his own.

Is he involved in Faith and in consenting to baptism – sure. But that involvement change what was just noted.

 

[crazzeto]

Such is confusing the matter…

Faith is not a “work” …baptism is not a “work”…etc.

A person does NOT enter into a state of (initial) justification by ANY “works” of his own.

Is he involved in Faith and in consenting to baptism – sure. But that involvement change what was just noted.

Biblically speaking, it is.

drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=60&ch=1&l=11#x

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you; that our God would make you worthy of his vocation, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness and the work of faith in power;

The quesiton is this, “faith” is an act of the intellect. Are acts of the intellect not “works”? don’t we describe them as “acts”, that which we do? Similarly participation in the sacraments is also a work. It is that which we do. These objectively are works.

 

[Bookcat]

Biblically speaking, it is.

Such is confusing the issue. They are NOT works in the sense of the matter at hand.

Baptism is not a “good work” it is received…a gift of God…

 

[Bookcat]

"This is what he also wrote in his Letter to the Galatians: “[M]an is not justified by works of the law but only through faith in Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified” (2: 16).

“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ."

~Pope Benedict XVI 8 November 2006

Now is it to stop there?

Normally one will then live long enough to “walk in love” to live the Christian Life --which yes involves doing good --loving others.

“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity.”

~Pope Benedict XVI 26 November 2008

But again --something may intervene and prevent any personal “loving” in a conscious way…for example a Baptized baby who dies and goes right to heaven…

 

[Bookcat]

“Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24).”

~Pope Benedict XVI 8 November 2006

 

[crazzeto]

"This is what he also wrote in his Letter to the Galatians: “[M]an is not justified by works of the law but only through faith in Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified” (2: 16).

“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ."

~Pope Benedict XVI 8 November 2006

Now is it to stop there?

Normally one will then live long enough to “walk in love” to live the Christian Life --which yes involves doing good --loving others.

“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity.”

~Pope Benedict XVI 26 November 2008

But again --something may intervene and prevent any personal “loving” in a conscious way…for example a Baptized baby who dies and goes right to heaven…

Yes, aboslutely bookcat. But that doesn’t mean faith is not a work, it’s not a ‘work of the law’ i.e. a work of the old ritual law of the Jews which is what Paul referred to and what Pope Emiritus is talking about. Further, nothing I have said contradicts that salvation and justification is something only God can do.

Let me pause here, I"m going to ask you to go back and more seriously consider what I have said. I ask this for no reason other than to avoid getting side tracked.

We are justified by the grace of God, which is proper to God alone. But as you should (and know full well you do accept) God does not simply justify everyone. There are some people who are saved, not all people who are saved. Therefor there is some reason why some of us are saved (I pray I am going to be one anyway) and why some of us are not saved.

The difference is our seeking Christ as our Lord and Saviour, and our cooperation with his will. Salvation is a work of grace, but God … I don’t know what the proper word to use here is, for lack of a better one demands our assent of the intellect and our participation (works). And indeed, our ascent of the intellect is indeed a work its self, believe me it is I support my family with nothing more than my intellect 5 days a week (computer programmer). So are the sacraments themselves works, we receive grace from the sacrament but we receive the grace from the sacrament after we first perform the work of participating in the sacrament.

Grace, faith, works are all tied together. You can not separate these.

 

[CyndiTo411]

“Works” are not about earning Gods love, he loves us no matter what. It is our duty to live a good Christian life and help our brothers and sisters in Christ. Do I think by doing good works I am guaranteed a spot in heaven, no, but Christ expects me to show Him I love Him. After all actions do speak louder than words. Christ didn’t just say he loved us, he SHOWED us through his acts and if we really love Him we would strive to follow His example even in his good works not because we want to go to heaven or earn extra points but because it is what is expected of us if we are true Christians.

Catholic=true christian

 

[crazzeto]

“Works” are not about earning Gods love, he loves us no matter what. It is our duty to live a good Christian life and help our brothers and sisters in Christ. Do I think by doing good works I am guaranteed a spot in heaven, no, but Christ expects me to show Him I love Him. After all actions do speak louder than words. Christ didn’t just say he loved us, he SHOWED us through his acts and if we really love Him we would strive to follow His example even in his good works not because we want to go to heaven or earn extra points but because it is what is expected of us if we are true Christians.

Catholic=true christian

This is a fantastic further clarification which I probably should have gotten to but I didn’t quite have time due to getting a little side tracked. I think what you say here calls to mind the scripture of the master and the servant. Christ asks if the servant should expect reward after working the fields. Christ answers this for us, no. Rather Christ,in seemingly harsh terms asks why the servant should believe this, after all he has merely done what was required (good works, put before us that we SHOULD preform). Rather the servant after a long days work must now tend to the masters need while the master dines.

 

[CyndiTo411]

This is a fantastic further clarification which I probably should have gotten to but I didn’t quite have time due to getting a little side tracked. I think what you say here calls to mind the scripture of the master and the servant. Christ asks if the servant should expect reward after working the fields. Christ answers this for us, no. Rather Christ,in seemingly harsh terms asks why the servant should believe this, after all he has merely done what was required (good works, put before us that we SHOULD preform). Rather the servant after a long days work must now tend to the masters need while the master dines.

 

[Bookcat]

The difference is our seeking Christ as our Lord and Saviour, and our cooperation with his will. Salvation is a work of grace, but God … I don’t know what the proper word to use here is, for lack of a better one demands our assent of the intellect and our participation (works). And indeed, our ascent of the intellect is indeed a work its self, believe me it is I support my family with nothing more than my intellect 5 days a week (computer programmer). So are the sacraments themselves works, we receive grace from the sacrament but we receive the grace from the sacrament after we first perform the work of participating in the sacrament.

.

Our “assent of our intellect” --(Faith I will note is more) – is not a “work” in that sense. Yes God involves our assent our freedom --but that too is by (prevenent) grace.

Baptism is not a “good work” that we do -it is what we receive…