A protestant question: Faith without acts is dead?

[crazzeto]

Our “assent of our intellect” --(Faith I will note is more) – is not a “work” in that sense. Yes God involves our assent our freedom --but that too is by (prevenent) grace.

Baptism is not a “good work” that we do -it is what we receive…

It is a work though, our participation in the sacrament is a work. As St. Paul says, even faith its self is a work. Basically anything we do is essentially a work, if we make a choice that choice is a work (for instance my choice to go to CiCis to celebrate my 2yr olds birthday is a work. Irrelevant to our discussion though).

All these works originate as grace from God, but you literally can’t deny that our work is a part of it (seriously, you can’t and be catholic). We must make our selves open to the grace, and act on the grace. We do in fact have free will, we do in fact must make the choice. You can’t separate this from salvation, other wise as St. Justin Martyr argues neither virtue nor vice matter, since we don’t have a choice.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, aboslutely bookcat. But that doesn’t mean faith is not a work, it’s not a ‘work of the law’ i.e. a work of the old ritual law of the Jews which is what Paul referred to and what Pope… .

Pope Benedict XVI is not referring only to “works of the law”

“this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24).”

~Pope Benedict XVI 8 November 2006

 

[crazzeto]

Pope Benedict XVI is not referring only to “works of the law”

“this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24).”

~Pope Benedict XVI 8 November 2006

catholicnewsagency.com/news/at-martin-luthers-monastery-pope-says-personal-sins-matter/

At Martin Luther’s former monastery, Pope Benedict XVI warned against the general presumption that personal sins are of little consequence to God and spoke about current challenges to Christian unity.

Faith without works is dead.

 

[Tunesmith]

Council of Trent
I. JUSTIFICATION
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

 

[Bookcat]

It is a work though, our participation in the sacrament is a work. As St. Paul says, even faith its self is a work. Basically anything we do is essentially a work, if we make a choice that choice is a work (for instance my choice to go to CiCis to celebrate my 2yr olds birthday is a work. Irrelevant to our discussion though).

All these works originate as grace from God, but you literally can’t deny that our work is a part of it (seriously, you can’t and be catholic). We must make our selves open to the grace, and act on the grace. We do in fact have free will, we do in fact must make the choice. You can’t separate this from salvation, other wise as St. Justin Martyr argues neither virtue nor vice matter, since we don’t have a choice.

Again that is confusing the issue of “faith and works”.

We do NOT make ourselves open to grace without grace (the grace before grace)

We are “involved” (if we are not infants) yes --but even that involvement is by God and it it confuses the issue by calling such a “a work” in the context of “faith and works” and “faith without works is dead”.

 

[crazzeto]

Council of Trent
I. JUSTIFICATION
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

This is what bookcat is highlighting, but as I told her the subject is “faith without works” something which (since she quotes him) the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI also discussed. More to the point (at bookcat) you can not separate works from savlation in a catholic context, this is literally a heresy as it would be in the separated orthodox faiths which in their own council affirm “works play a role in salvation”.

 

[Bookcat]

This is what bookcat is highlighting, but as I told her the subject is “faith without works” something which (since she quotes him) the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI also discussed. More to the point (at bookcat) you can not separate works from savlation in a catholic context, this is literally a heresy as it would be in the separated orthodox faiths which in their own council affirm “works play a role in salvation”.

1. Him not her.
2. I distinguished between initial justification and the good works that normally are to follow in the life of a Christian (and quote Pope Benedict XVI on both counts and provided earlier longer material from him this very subject)

 

[crazzeto]

Too be more clear, yes the grace to perform works originates with God. This does not dismiss our responsibility to perform works. We have free will (doctrine of faith), we are required to have faith (doctrine of the faith, taking a grace alone appoarch eliminates the need for faith) we are required to act (doctrine of the faith).

Simply put, the Catholic puts a primacy on grace yes, but we can’t say grace alone. As Fr. Barron says, the best way to state salvation is

Grace, with the response of Faith perfected by Love.

Grace, Faith, Works (love, acts).

 

[crazzeto]

1. Him not her.
2. I distinguished between initial justification and the good works that normally are to follow in the life of a Christian (and quote Pope Benedict XVI on both counts and provided earlier longer material from him this very subject)

I’m discussing the relationship between faith and works, thus your discussion of grace while it does play a critical role in salvation is sort of derailing the conversation. Faith without works is dead, I’m staying on this topic. No quote of the Holy Fathers (any popes) contradicts this or anything I said on this subject matter. You cant say grace to the exclusion of faith (which given the context is where we’re pushing this). You can’t say grace to the exclusion of works, which given the context, this is where you’re pushing this.

 

[crazzeto]

A more complete picture of what I’m talking about, as discussed by Fr. Barron. Again, one can not put Faith perfected by Love over and against Grace. These three are not contradictory, competitive or any other such thing. They cooperate.

wordonfire.org/WOF-Radio/Sermons/Sermon-Archive-for-2012/Sermon-610-Faith-Perfected-by-Love-24th-Sunday.aspx

 

[Bookcat]

I’m discussing the relationship between faith and works, thus your discussion of grace while it does play a critical role in salvation is sort of derailing the conversation. Faith without works is dead, I’m staying on this topic. No quote of the Holy Fathers (any popes) contradicts this or anything I said on this subject matter. You cant say grace to the exclusion of faith (which given the context is where we’re pushing this). You can’t say grace to the exclusion of works, which given the context, this is where you’re pushing this.

I am discussing Faith and Works (and yes Grace).

Justification has an “initial” aspect which does not depend on “good works” or “works of the law”.

"This is what he also wrote in his Letter to the Galatians: “[M]an is not justified by works of the law but only through faith in Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified” (2: 16).

“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ."

~Pope Benedict XVI 8 November 2006

Now is it to stop there?

Normally one will then live long enough to “walk in love” to live the Christian Life --which yes involves doing good --loving others.

“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity.”

~Pope Benedict XVI 26 November 2008

But again --something may intervene and prevent any personal “loving” in a conscious way…for example a Baptized baby who dies and goes right to heaven…

It is confusing though the issue to be talking about “faith” as a “work” and baptism as a “work”…such is taking it back to the what happens at ones “initial justification” and using that which happens at initial justification as a “post justification” good work …which confuses the issue of “faith and works”

As I wrote above as my answer to the question of this thread:

One receives justification (called initial justification) by grace – via Faith and Baptism. Such is not “earned” by works --be they “of the law” or “good works”.

Then a Christian is to continue to live in Christ – living as a Christian – bearing fruit (by grace --from his life in Christ) — in love and remaining in Christ. Walking in love.

 

[Tunesmith]

I didn’t write this but I’m posting 2 paragraphs that are very relevant to the discussion.

scborromeo.org/papers/solafide.pdf

However, many Bible-believing Protestants are erroneously convinced that the
Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by works, that is, one can “earn” or “merit”
salvation on his own. Thus they reason that Catholics are not saved. This conclusion
does not come from uncharitableness towards Catholics, but from their genuine and
correct conviction that salvation is by grace. What contributes to this
misunderstanding is the fact that many Catholics are themselves confused about
what the Church teaches.

The Catholic Church also teaches that the works of the law or the works of the flesh
justifies no one. Protestants agree. Tragically, many Protestants believe the Catholic
Church teaches the opposite - a “works doctrine.” The teaching of the Council of
Trent, however, is adamant on this point.
“If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether
done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without
divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.” 6 This decree is consistent
with the revealed word of God (Rom 3:20, 27-28; Eph 2:8-9).

 

[crazzeto]

But again --something may intervene and prevent any personal “loving” in a conscious way…for example a Baptized baby who dies and goes right to heaven…

It is confusing though the issue to be talking about “faith” as a “work” and baptism as a “work”…such is taking it back to the what happens at ones “initial justification” and using that which happens at initial justification as a “post justification” good work …which confuses the issue of “faith and works”

As I wrote above as my answer to the question of this thread:

One receives justification (called initial justification) by grace – via Faith and Baptism. Such is not “earned” by works --be they “of the law” or “good works”.

Then a Christian is to continue to live in Christ – living as a Christian – bearing fruit (by grace --from his life in Christ) — in love and remaining in Christ. Walking in love.

I snipped out the Holy Father’s remarks, because certainly I agree with those. Rather I want to concentrate on answering you because you clearly don’t understand what I’m saying at all.

First let me be clear, none of what I said addresses grace at all. I don’t deny grace, I don’t deny that everything we do depends on grace, I simply did not address the issue. This is an important point because once we get into a little disagreement about salvation when we are discussing the matter from two completely and different contexts we create nothing but confusion. We create the impression that we are discussing opposing ideas, they are not opposing ideas. I was discussing the idea in an incomplete manner which most directly pertained to the subject matter (and line) of this discussion. You are attempting to discuss it completely. This is how I see the current discussion.

So, knowing I don’t deny grace or that works originate in grace or that we are saved as an act of grace by God alone (so in essence salvation is a work of God alone, and in that sense alone not by us at all if one disregards our response). That said, God does ask a response of us as pointed out by another poster to which I responded with a summation of Christ’s parable of the servant and the master.

The point I was addressing is “what is our response”. Our response to God’s grace is both faith and works, or most accurately faith completed by works which the Holy Father in his quoted text makes reference to when he says “faith is not only the assent of the will”.

Now you say you are confused by my reference to works in connection to sacraments (baptism as one example). Essentially, showing up is a work. Yes, the sacraments impart grace, and yes the important part is the grace. But connected to the grace we do have to do something, after all the physical is indeed required (not optional) for there to be a sacrament at all. So while what occurs in the sacrament, the imparted grace is abosluely no work at all (as Jimmy Akin explains), I would contend works indeed got you to your baptism. For instance I think in his text he refernces paying a Dr. who might cure someone (his dead wife) of a disease. The curing was not a work on the part of the hypothedical person referenced who is cured, yes abosluely I agree. The individual couldn’t have done that. But they did pay the Dr. (in his specific example), that payment is a work. That got them to the cure. Likewise my choice to bring my daughters (both) to church for the sacrament of baptism is indeed a work on my part (in this case) that brought them to the saving grace imparted by the sacrament. Without this particular work (the act of bringing them there, and deciding to do this) they would not have the grace of baptism at this time (they may choose later to do it on their own). There are works involved.

So in conclusion, I do agree with your complete view of salvation. I even agree that baptism as such (certainly the graces) aren’t a work. But I contend getting to a sacrament is, and to be clear. Until we started having this discussion I actually wasn’t even talking about grace at all. It actually wasn’t a part of my conversation.

 

[crazzeto]

I didn’t write this but I’m posting 2 paragraphs that are very relevant to the discussion.

scborromeo.org/papers/solafide.pdf

However, many Bible-believing Protestants are erroneously convinced that the
Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by works, that is, one can “earn” or “merit”
salvation on his own. Thus they reason that Catholics are not saved. This conclusion
does not come from uncharitableness towards Catholics, but from their genuine and
correct conviction that salvation is by grace. What contributes to this
misunderstanding is the fact that many Catholics are themselves confused about
what the Church teaches.

The Catholic Church also teaches that the works of the law or the works of the flesh
justifies no one. Protestants agree. Tragically, many Protestants believe the Catholic
Church teaches the opposite - a “works doctrine.” The teaching of the Council of
Trent, however, is adamant on this point.
“If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether
done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without
divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.” 6 This decree is consistent
with the revealed word of God (Rom 3:20, 27-28; Eph 2:8-9).

Grace proceeding the free response of faith and works. Which actually is over and opposed to the “works only” doctrine being described here yes.

 

[Bookcat]

That said, God does ask a response of us as pointed out by another poster to which I responded with a summation of Christ’s parable of the servant and the master.
Yes -but that response while free is still by the “grace that comes before grace”

The point I was addressing is “what is our response”. Our response to God’s grace is both faith and works, or most accurately faith completed by works which the Holy Father in his quoted text makes reference to when he says “faith is not only the assent of the will”.

Now you say you are confused by my reference to works in connection to sacraments (baptism as one example). Essentially, showing up is a work.
So what one could then conclude is that one is justified initially by ones works (in part)…which would be the wrong conclusion.
I am not saying you are saying such - but such use can bring such confusion on the matter

Yes, the sacraments impart grace, and yes the important part is the grace. But connected to the grace we do have to do something, after all the physical is indeed required (not optional) for there to be a sacrament at all. So while what occurs in the sacrament, the imparted grace is abosluely no work at all (as Jimmy Akin explains), I would contend works indeed got you to your baptism.

So what one could then conclude is that one is justified initially by ones works (in part). …which would be the wrong conclusion.

One getting there --is part of the “grace that comes before grace”. Yes ones free will is involved…yes God involves the person --but my point is that to use the terms like that is to bring confusion

For instance I think in his text he refernces paying a Dr. who might cure someone (his dead wife) of a disease. The curing was not a work on the part of the hypothedical person referenced who is cured, yes abosluely I agree. The individual couldn’t have done that. But they did pay the Dr. (in his specific example), that payment is a work. That got them to the cure. Likewise my choice to bring my daughters (both) to church for the sacrament of baptism is indeed a work on my part (in this case) that brought them to the saving grace imparted by the sacrament. Without this particular work (the act of bringing them there, and deciding to do this) they would not have the grace of baptism at this time (they may choose later to do it on their own). There are works involved.

So what one could then conclude is that one is justified initially by ones works (in part)…which would be the wrong conclusion.
I am not saying you are saying such - but such use can bring such confusion on the matter

Hence it is confusing to use the term “work”. What Paul and Pope Benedict XVI is getting at is that it is from grace… by faith --Not-- by “works” be they good works or works of the law…
To call getting to baptism a work or to call faith a “work” or to call other ways which we by God cooperate with God – a work (speaking here of initial justification) -is to bring confusion.

What one means is that – yes God involves the person --a persons free will is yes involved (with the help of God) but it is important not to confuse things by calling such “a work”

So in conclusion, I do agree with your complete view of salvation. I even agree that baptism as such (certainly the graces) aren’t a work. But I contend getting to a sacrament is, and to be clear. .

 

[crazzeto]

No, actually you didn’t read what I wrote. You clearly missed much of what I wrote bookcat. As such I don’t see the point in continuing the conversation since you haven’t made a connection with one very critical point I made.

(to be clear bookcat, I did not claim to and in fact expressly denied what you say I am claiming about justification. Again, context is being ignored completely).

 

[Tunesmith]

Grace proceeding the free response of faith and works. Which actually is over and opposed to the “works only” doctrine being described here yes.

Yes - I think. Salvation by works was never a legitimate doctrine but so many people are convinced it is.

 

[crazzeto]

Yes.

 

[Bookcat]

No, actually you didn’t read what I wrote. You clearly missed much of what I wrote bookcat. As such I don’t see the point in continuing the conversation since you haven’t made a connection with one very critical point I made.

(to be clear bookcat, I did not claim to and in fact expressly denied what you say I am claiming about justification. Again, context is being ignored completely).

I very carefully read what you wrote and responded bit by bit. I have not ignored context. I have explained that the use there of the term “work” is confusing. Please read again what I wrote…

Appearance …

 

[Bookcat]

and for some reason this line did not show there in blue

What one means is that – yes God involves the person --a persons free will is yes involved (with the help of God) but it is important not to confuse things by calling such “a work”