A Quaker Understanding...

[Publisher]

It is no secret that each of our respective faith communities have “spectators” and “participants”…Quakerism doesn’t offer much for “spectators”…when one becomes a Friend one takes upon themselves the responsiblility to be involved in the life of the Meeting. “Waging Peace” means much more than showing up at a rally holding a sign stating the Peace Testimony.

There are “Sunday Christians”…“Holiday Christians”…“Rice Christians” and what not…none of these types of “Christians” would be the “poster child” for any of our repsective faith traditions…so I tend to move away from conversations that tend to relate “anecdotal evidence” why any particular faith tradition is “wrong”.

I am brought back again and again to my own faith tradition…I have found a way of life that incorporates a sense of the Divine in the daily of my life. I am not a “model Quaker” by any stretch of the imagination…but what I have found among Friends are the “tools” to find my way to relationship with God…I “experienced” and experience a profound sense of Presence at times in Meeting…when meeting is truly “gathered”…and the Living Silence is only broken when vocal ministry is offered by another Friend…the sense of “communion after the manner of Friends” takes on a whole new meaning of depth for me.

Quakerism is a “participant” faith…not an “observers” faith…there’s not much “entertainment” on First Day. Unless one “goes into meeting” during the week-day…First Day Meeting will be quite…“dry” and “uninspiring”…

I return again and again to the “Queries” to gage my own spiritual life through reflection as to how well I “measure up”…and when I fail…there is grace and mercy in abundant supply.

“Do you make time for meditation, prayer and worship? Do you read the Bible, the writings of Friends, and other inspirational works, seeking new light? Do you regularly seek God’s guidance? Are you open to guidance and support and do you give thanks for them? Do you share your spiritual insights with others and willingly receive from them in turn?”

"Do you live in accordance with your spiritual convictions? Do you seek employment consistent with your beliefs and in service to society? Do you practice simplicity in speech, dress and manner of living, avoiding wasteful consumption? Are you watchful that your possessions do not rule you? Do you strive to be truthful at all times, avoiding judicial oaths?
Do you strive to develop your physical, emotional and mental capacities toward reaching your Divinely given potential? Do you cultivate healthful and moderate habits, avoiding the hazards of drugs, intoxicants, and over-indulgence generally? Do you try to direct such emotions as anger and fear in creative ways? "

“Do you respect that of God in every person? Do you search yourself for and strive to eliminate prejudices such as those related to race, religion, gender, age, sexual orientation and economic condition? In what ways do you accept and appreciate differences among your friends and associates? Do you avoid exploiting or manipulating others to accomplish ends, however worthy?”

“Do you promote social justice and make your life a testimony to fair dealing? Do you seek to understand and appreciate differing cultures and social values? Do you support fair treatment of all regardless of race, gender, age and other differences? Are you concerned for those in our society who are disadvantaged? Do you take your full share of civic responsibility by voting and giving service? Do you oppose the use of land, labor, technology and capital for human exploitation or in ways destructive to other living things?”

Quakerism calls us to examine ourselves and determine how we “measure up” to the ideals we hold…we are called away from seeking to compare ourselves to others…there is One alone we are compared to…and One alone who offers grace and mercy for sin and shortcomings…I have found a deep sense of purpose in life…I do my best…and often fail…to see the sacred and holy in the events of my life…I seek to Listen and follow that “still small voice” that speaks to us when our hearts are calmed and centered away from the “whirlwind and thunder” of life

One of my “life mottos” has been…“Seek justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God”.

I do fail…but I am awed and humbled by the astounding grace and mercy of God…“Behold what love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the children of God.”

 

[waxwing]

It is no secret that each of our respective faith communities have “spectators” and “participants”…Quakerism doesn’t offer much for “spectators”…when one becomes a Friend one takes upon themselves the responsiblility to be involved in the life of the Meeting. “Waging Peace” means much more than showing up at a rally holding a sign stating the Peace Testimony.

There are “Sunday Christians”…“Holiday Christians”…“Rice Christians” and what not…none of these types of “Christians” would be the “poster child” for any of our repsective faith traditions…so I tend to move away from conversations that tend to relate “anecdotal evidence” why any particular faith tradition is “wrong”.

I am brought back again and again to my own faith tradition…I have found a way of life that incorporates a sense of the Divine in the daily of my life. I am not a “model Quaker” by any stretch of the imagination…but what I have found among Friends are the “tools” to find my way to relationship with God…I “experienced” and experience a profound sense of Presence at times in Meeting…when meeting is truly “gathered”…and the Living Silence is only broken when vocal ministry is offered by another Friend…the sense of “communion after the manner of Friends” takes on a whole new meaning of depth for me.

Quakerism is a “participant” faith…not an “observers” faith…there’s not much “entertainment” on First Day. Unless one “goes into meeting” during the week-day…First Day Meeting will be quite…“dry” and “uninspiring”…

I return again and again to the “Queries” to gage my own spiritual life through reflection as to how well I “measure up”…and when I fail…there is grace and mercy in abundant supply.

“Do you make time for meditation, prayer and worship? Do you read the Bible, the writings of Friends, and other inspirational works, seeking new light? Do you regularly seek God’s guidance? Are you open to guidance and support and do you give thanks for them? Do you share your spiritual insights with others and willingly receive from them in turn?”

"Do you live in accordance with your spiritual convictions? Do you seek employment consistent with your beliefs and in service to society? Do you practice simplicity in speech, dress and manner of living, avoiding wasteful consumption? Are you watchful that your possessions do not rule you? Do you strive to be truthful at all times, avoiding judicial oaths?
Do you strive to develop your physical, emotional and mental capacities toward reaching your Divinely given potential? Do you cultivate healthful and moderate habits, avoiding the hazards of drugs, intoxicants, and over-indulgence generally? Do you try to direct such emotions as anger and fear in creative ways? "

“Do you respect that of God in every person? Do you search yourself for and strive to eliminate prejudices such as those related to race, religion, gender, age, sexual orientation and economic condition? In what ways do you accept and appreciate differences among your friends and associates? Do you avoid exploiting or manipulating others to accomplish ends, however worthy?”

“Do you promote social justice and make your life a testimony to fair dealing? Do you seek to understand and appreciate differing cultures and social values? Do you support fair treatment of all regardless of race, gender, age and other differences? Are you concerned for those in our society who are disadvantaged? Do you take your full share of civic responsibility by voting and giving service? Do you oppose the use of land, labor, technology and capital for human exploitation or in ways destructive to other living things?”

Quakerism calls us to examine ourselves and determine how we “measure up” to the ideals we hold…we are called away from seeking to compare ourselves to others…there is One alone we are compared to…and One alone who offers grace and mercy for sin and shortcomings…I have found a deep sense of purpose in life…I do my best…and often fail…to see the sacred and holy in the events of my life…I seek to Listen and follow that “still small voice” that speaks to us when our hearts are calmed and centered away from the “whirlwind and thunder” of life

One of my “life mottos” has been…“Seek justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God”.

I do fail…but I am awed and humbled by the astounding grace and mercy of God…“Behold what love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the children of God.”

I am interested in what you mean by Quakers don’t offer much for “spectators”…all the churches I have been to there have been “participants” and “spectators” and from what I can tell the majority in the latter categoy - to be honest I am usually in this category too.
The ‘spectators’ seem to manage OK on their weekly trips to Church. How is life different in the Quakers Church for those with the inclination to sit back and watch for an hour a week versus those that take a active interest in the church.

To me one of the challenges of churches is to take the faith from the church into our daily lives and live our transformation from serving our needs to obeying Christ in our walk and looking outward in service rather than inward in selfishness. A lot easier said than done I know but just my thoughts on that

 

[Edward_H]

I am interested in what you mean by Quakers don’t offer much for “spectators”…all the churches I have been to there have been “participants” and “spectators” and from what I can tell the majority in the latter categoy - to be honest I am usually in this category too.
The ‘spectators’ seem to manage OK on their weekly trips to Church. How is life different in the Quakers Church for those with the inclination to sit back and watch for an hour a week versus those that take a active interest in the church.

To me one of the challenges of churches is to take the faith from the church into our daily lives and live our transformation from serving our needs to obeying Christ in our walk and looking outward in service rather than inward in selfishness. A lot easier said than done I know but just my thoughts on that

Yes…I am not sure which church would admit that it “offers much to spectators.”

There’s never a surplus of sincerity and humility.

 

[Publisher]

I am interested in what you mean by Quakers don’t offer much for “spectators”…all the churches I have been to there have been “participants” and “spectators” and from what I can tell the majority in the latter categoy - to be honest I am usually in this category too.
The ‘spectators’ seem to manage OK on their weekly trips to Church. How is life different in the Quakers Church for those with the inclination to sit back and watch for an hour a week versus those that take a active interest in the church.

To me one of the challenges of churches is to take the faith from the church into our daily lives and live our transformation from serving our needs to obeying Christ in our walk and looking outward in service rather than inward in selfishness. A lot easier said than done I know but just my thoughts on that

For most people who visit an un-programmed Meeting…it’s very “uncomfortable” and “boring”…I invited a co-worker to Meeting one First Day as he too was very interested in what I meant by “spectator”…as the Meeting “centered down” into worship as people found a “comfortable” position to quiet the “rustling” and noise…after about 10-15 mins my friend leaned over and said…“When does Meeting begin?”…I responded in a quiet whisper…“It began about 10 minutes ago.”

One Friend related a similar experience…his guest leaned over and asked…“When does the service begin?” His answer…“When the meeting is over.”

He didn’t return to Meeting…it was “not his cup of tea”.

In a traditional Friend’s Meeting, there is no alter, cross, pulpit, statues, stained glass pictures, candles or books. The meeting room is very plain…with the chairs or benches set up in a “U” pattern. There may be the “Clerks Table” set off to the side near the “facing bench” (where the “elders” sit in some meetings) that has a notebook and maybe a small vase of flowers on it…this is the only decoration.

Each Friend is supposed to prepare to “enter into meeting” before they arrive at the meetinghouse…and arrive on time…chronic late arrivers usually end up “eldered” at some point to curb the disturbance to the meeting with late arrivals.

Each person is a “participant” of the meeting…each person has the “gift” to bring vocal ministry IF moved by the Spirit to do so. Each Friend is to quiet their hearts and turn “inward” to that Sacred Place where they meet God…and join with each other in the Living Silence to discern the mind and will of God. It is a time to raise our hearts in prayer and adoration…to seek forgiveness for sins of ommission as well as commission…to renew ourselves in the Presence…and most if not all of this takes place in Silence.

When the one who has “care of the Meeting” that particular First Day senses the meeting is “closing”…they turn to the person next them and shake their hand…this signals close of meeting…each Friend turns to the person next to them and shakes hands and meeting is over.

One gets out of Meeting what one brings and contributes…but unless one is actively engaged in the process of centering and worship…sitting in silence for an hour or so gets boring…there’s nothing to “observe” but a group of people sitting in Silence with their heads bowed…not much a “spectator” would appreciate.

There may be a time of singing after Meeting for those who wish to participate…or they may retire to the fellowship hall for coffee/tea and refreshments…some Meetings have a pot-luck lunch…a “love feast”…each Meeting is autonomous.

 

[Mickey]

Is it true that some Quakers do not consider themselves as Chritians?

 

[Publisher]

Is it true that some Quakers do not consider themselves as Chritians?

Yes that is quite true. Even though the Friends began as exclusivly “Christian”…we have come to also accept not everyone is led to the Light in the same way…God meets us where we are…when we are born “spiritually” we are not “born” fully understanding the Mystery that is God…that is a life time process…perhaps even an eternal process.

We do not seek to impose a doctrine or dogma of belief upon an individual, as Friends believe in seeking Truth…to insist a member accept a ‘creed’ or ‘statement of faith’ with which they could not honestly say they believe 100% is not the way of Friends…we seek to honor each of our respective Journey…no matter where we are in that Journey…we do have some Friends who do not wish to idenify themselves as “Christians”…for whatever reason they have…one Friend said he echoed Ghandi’s statement concerning Christians…that he didn’t think much of Jesus followers…but he thought very highly of Jesus.

I have known a couple Friends who claimed be Buddhist Quakers…they sought to “speak to that of God” in every one and seek to establish peace ine world we live.

I have been acquainted with one “Pagan Quaker”…eventually through the life of the Meeting and exposure to Quaker books on spirituality…finally embraced a more “Quaker Christian” world view…she too was in love with Jesus…just didn’t think too highly of the “Christians” she had been exposed to up to then in her life.

Each of us is on a Journey toward the Light…Friends seek to assist in the Journey and work with everyone no matter where they are on this Journey toward the Light.

Friends range in belief from “orthodox/evangelical” to “agnostic/pagan/Buddhist”…we all seek to work together and seek to honor “that of God” in one another. Some of our Evangelical Friends do have difficulty with not being too “preachy”…the Meeting I belong to meets with an Evangelical Friends church for group corporate worship…and we serve together to meet some of the “concerns” our respective Yearly Meetings agree to work together on. It has been Quaker belief and practice to never refuse aid or food to anyone that asks for it…and seek not to “proslytize” those we seek to aid in exchange for food or medicine…“Freely you have received…freely give.”

 

[erichael]

Is it true that some Quakers do not consider themselves as Chritians?

You will discover if you search Wikipedia, that Quakers are not considered Christians, although I know of Quakers who would balk at such an idea.

My brother’s meeting hall is a church and was once featured in a movie because it so resembled a quaint little church. My brother does not sit around a circle, but like a protestant stands behind a pulpit. His service and he has two every Sunday morning is a farce. It is neither faithful to the Quaker ideology Publisher professes, nor is it faithful to the Protestants. It is a mishmash of regurgitated reformation theology and George Fox’s vision, failing miserably at both. His sermons are aproximately thirty minutes long which leaves little time for a gathering of silence. He is clearly the boss and defers to no one.

The pity is though he is under the banner of the Friends Society, he runs the meeting not very differently from the Assembly of Gods without the baptism part, of course. He thinks himself too good to follow in Christ’s footsteps and humble himself long enough to get wet. I fear many innocent people walking through the doors expecting to meditate oneself into a state of bliss find themselves sitting through a rather dull pseudo-Protestant church service.

P.S. - He recently bragged how he is so jazzed about going from one service to two services on Sunday morning to accomodate an extra large crowd that he runs back to the parsonage to change into a different suit. I liken this manic behaviour to an actor making a costume change during intermission.

 

[Publisher]

You will discover if you search Wikipedia, that Quakers are not considered Christians, although I know of Quakers who would balk at such an idea.

My brother’s meeting hall is a church and was once featured in a movie because it so resembled a quaint little church. My brother does not sit around a circle, but like a protestant stands behind a pulpit. His service and he has two every Sunday morning is a farce. It is neither faithful to the Quaker ideology Publisher professes, nor is it faithful to the Protestants. It is a mishmash of regurgitated reformation theology and George Fox’s vision, failing miserably at both. His sermons are aproximately thirty minutes long which leaves little time for a gathering of silence. He is clearly the boss and defers to no one.

The pity is though he is under the banner of the Friends Society, he runs the meeting not very differently from the Assembly of Gods without the baptism part, of course. He thinks himself too good to follow in Christ’s footsteps and humble himself long enough to get wet. I fear many innocent people walking through the doors expecting to meditate oneself into a state of bliss find themselves sitting through a rather dull pseudo-Protestant church service.

P.S. - He recently bragged how he is so jazzed about going from one service to two services on Sunday morning to accomodate an extra large crowd that he runs back to the parsonage to change into a different suit. I liken this manic behaviour to an actor making a costume change during intermission.

One of the “Quaker schisms” occured int he 19th century during the “Great Awakening”…Friends had already divided a while back between “Hicksite” and “Orthodox”…a further divide occured when “Protestant revivalist” movement began…now we had the “Gurneyites” who wished to introduce a paid clergy and more of a style of worship of nominal Protestant Evangelicals. They adopted the name “Friends Church” to distinguish themselves from the “Society of Friends” who retained Quaker practice and worship.

The “Handbook of the Religious Society of Friends” lists both “Friends Meetings” and “Friends Church”…many of the Friend’s churches cannot be distinguished from their Protestant “steeple houses”…and some like the California Yearly Meeting of Friends Church will baptize if asked. These Friends do embrace the historic Quaker stance that the True Baptism which makes one a member of the Body of Christ is the direct work of the Holy Spirit and is not accomplished through ritual means…but by the “new birth” and regeneration by the Holy Spirit through Christ…but with many “convincements” from other traditions…they will practice water baptism and conduct a “communion service” if the meeting/church wishes to celebrate. Those services I have been familiar with also practice foot washing along with the communion service. They also utilize a “pastoral” system. The “Clerk” is still the head of the “meeting/chruch” and business is done in the Quaker manner…by consensus…not by vote.

The Friends Church, usually under the umbrella of “Evangelical Friends International” usually give a “nod” to Friends worship…they have “silent worship” time set aside for 10-15 minutes…these Friends tend to be more “evangelical” than historically Quaker.

All groups of Friends work together under the American Friends Service Committee or some under the British Friends Service Council for relief and charity work…no one is asked their “theological” beliefs to serve others.

Many Friends churches do have two services…the Meeting I attend has two Meetings for Worship on First Day…but since we don’t have a paid minister…no one has to go home and change clothes in between Meetings.

As far as the assertion that friend erichel made concerning the recorded minister…I can not address as I do not know the man nor his church.

On a positive note…the “Hicksite”/“Orthodox” schism was healed between the two groups in the 1950’s-1960’s…they have come together under “Friends United Meeting”…the “Gurneyite”/“Wilburite” split has somewhat healed as well…the “Gurneyite” continue to utilize “Protestant” means of worship and belief…while the “Wilburites”…being fairly evangelical/orthodox still utilize traditional Quaker worship.

The Conservative Friends…those who hold “orthodox” beliefs…traditional Quaker worship and choose to live “plain” also work in conjunction with other Friends for social needs and concerns through the American Friends Service Committee and the Friends Committee on National Legislation.

 

[erichael]

One of the “Quaker schisms” occured int he 19th century during the “Great Awakening”…Friends had already divided a while back between “Hicksite” and “Orthodox”…a further divide occured when “Protestant revivalist” movement began…now we had the “Gurneyites” who wished to introduce a paid clergy and more of a style of worship of nominal Protestant Evangelicals. They adopted the name “Friends Church” to distinguish themselves from the “Society of Friends” who retained Quaker practice and worship.

The “Handbook of the Religious Society of Friends” lists both “Friends Meetings” and “Friends Church”…many of the Friend’s churches cannot be distinguished from their Protestant “steeple houses”…and some like the California Yearly Meeting of Friends Church will baptize if asked. These Friends do embrace the historic Quaker stance that the True Baptism which makes one a member of the Body of Christ is the direct work of the Holy Spirit and is not accomplished through ritual means…but by the “new birth” and regeneration by the Holy Spirit through Christ…but with many “convincements” from other traditions…they will practice water baptism and conduct a “communion service” if the meeting/church wishes to celebrate. Those services I have been familiar with also practice foot washing along with the communion service. They also utilize a “pastoral” system. The “Clerk” is still the head of the “meeting/chruch” and business is done in the Quaker manner…by consensus…not by vote.

The Friends Church, usually under the umbrella of “Evangelical Friends International” usually give a “nod” to Friends worship…they have “silent worship” time set aside for 10-15 minutes…these Friends tend to be more “evangelical” than historically Quaker.

All groups of Friends work together under the American Friends Service Committee or some under the British Friends Service Council for relief and charity work…no one is asked their “theological” beliefs to serve others.

Many Friends churches do have two services…the Meeting I attend has two Meetings for Worship on First Day…but since we don’t have a paid minister…no one has to go home and change clothes in between Meetings.

As far as the assertion that friend erichel made concerning the recorded minister…I can not address as I do not know the man nor his church.

On a positive note…the “Hicksite”/“Orthodox” schism was healed between the two groups in the 1950’s-1960’s…they have come together under “Friends United Meeting”…the “Gurneyite”/“Wilburite” split has somewhat healed as well…the “Gurneyite” continue to utilize “Protestant” means of worship and belief…while the “Wilburites”…being fairly evangelical/orthodox still utilize traditional Quaker worship.

The Conservative Friends…those who hold “orthodox” beliefs…traditional Quaker worship and choose to live “plain” also work in conjunction with other Friends for social needs and concerns through the American Friends Service Committee and the Friends Committee on National Legislation.

You are well informed, Publisher and I admire that quality in any man. You will never convert me, but I must admit after having read your posts, I may be growing more tolerant towards people such as yourself without superimposing my brother’s face on every Quaker. Clearly, there are many faces of Quakerism and they do not all bare my brother’s resemblance. Thank you for enlightening me somewhat.

 

[Publisher]

You are welcome friend.

 

[waxwing]

For most people who visit an un-programmed Meeting…it’s very “uncomfortable” and “boring”…I invited a co-worker to Meeting one First Day as he too was very interested in what I meant by “spectator”…as the Meeting “centered down” into worship as people found a “comfortable” position to quiet the “rustling” and noise…after about 10-15 mins my friend leaned over and said…“When does Meeting begin?”…I responded in a quiet whisper…“It began about 10 minutes ago.”

One Friend related a similar experience…his guest leaned over and asked…“When does the service begin?” His answer…“When the meeting is over.”

He didn’t return to Meeting…it was “not his cup of tea”.

In a traditional Friend’s Meeting, there is no alter, cross, pulpit, statues, stained glass pictures, candles or books. The meeting room is very plain…with the chairs or benches set up in a “U” pattern. There may be the “Clerks Table” set off to the side near the “facing bench” (where the “elders” sit in some meetings) that has a notebook and maybe a small vase of flowers on it…this is the only decoration.

Each Friend is supposed to prepare to “enter into meeting” before they arrive at the meetinghouse…and arrive on time…chronic late arrivers usually end up “eldered” at some point to curb the disturbance to the meeting with late arrivals.

Each person is a “participant” of the meeting…each person has the “gift” to bring vocal ministry IF moved by the Spirit to do so. Each Friend is to quiet their hearts and turn “inward” to that Sacred Place where they meet God…and join with each other in the Living Silence to discern the mind and will of God. It is a time to raise our hearts in prayer and adoration…to seek forgiveness for sins of ommission as well as commission…to renew ourselves in the Presence…and most if not all of this takes place in Silence.

When the one who has “care of the Meeting” that particular First Day senses the meeting is “closing”…they turn to the person next them and shake their hand…this signals close of meeting…each Friend turns to the person next to them and shakes hands and meeting is over.

One gets out of Meeting what one brings and contributes…but unless one is actively engaged in the process of centering and worship…sitting in silence for an hour or so gets boring…there’s nothing to “observe” but a group of people sitting in Silence with their heads bowed…not much a “spectator” would appreciate.

There may be a time of singing after Meeting for those who wish to participate…or they may retire to the fellowship hall for coffee/tea and refreshments…some Meetings have a pot-luck lunch…a “love feast”…each Meeting is autonomous.

Hi Publisher

Thanks for this, I had a certain notion on what spectator and participant meant and your explanation redefined those concepts in the context of Quaker church life.

From some your post it seemed like large part of the services is comprised of Centering Prayer or some sort of meditative prayer. Also is their no sermon? Is there a pastor or leader involved, based on other peoples post looks like depending on the type of Quakers service your attend there is a different experience. Lastly the term ‘eldered’ is this another way of saying disciplined? And if so by who. I know this kinda a rambling message but those are few other questions I had.

Thanks

 

[Publisher]

Hi Publisher

Thanks for this, I had a certain notion on what spectator and participant meant and your explanation redefined those concepts in the context of Quaker church life.

From some your post it seemed like large part of the services is comprised of Centering Prayer or some sort of meditative prayer. Also is their no sermon? Is there a pastor or leader involved, based on other peoples post looks like depending on the type of Quakers service your attend there is a different experience. Lastly the term ‘eldered’ is this another way of saying disciplined? And if so by who. I know this kinda a rambling message but those are few other questions I had.

Thanks

I belong to an “un-programmed” Meeting…as opposed to a “programmed” Meeting/Church. We have no paid pastor or minister…each Friend is a minister and shares in the Priesthood of Christ…we firmly believe in the “priesthood of all believers”…some of the Friends in the Meeting I attend may not use that term…but it is a tenet we firmly embrace. Each and every one of us has access to God through Christ to enter into the Presence and commune. We believe each of us has the capacity to hear the Word of God. There are times in Meeting where no one is led to offer “vocal ministry”…anyone may stand in Meeting and deliver a message they felt led to deliver…sometimes it’s a call to action against an injustice…sometimes it has with it a “political” flavor as each Friend is called to be “leaven” where ever they are…sometimes it is a Bible reading…or a vocal prayer is offered…each person in attendence is a minister to those present with them in Meeting.

There is a Presiding Clerk and Recording Clerk…they have charge of the monthly Meeting for Worship for Business…the Clerk is usually the person to contact for info concerning the life of the meeting…during Meeting for Worship someone is given “care of the Meeting”…it is up to them to gauge the “flow” and determine when Meeting is “closing”…he or she “closes Meeting” by turning to the Friend next to them and shaking their hand…this signals the close of Meeting and each Friend turns to their neighbor and shakes hands and greets them.

Even in those “programmed” or “pastoral” Meetings/church…the Presiding Clerk is in charge of the Business…along with the “elders” chosen from among the congregation to “lead”. The pastor sits with the congregation and has no more say in how the Meeting/Church affairs are conducted than any other Friend.

“Eldering” occurs when a Friend “strays” from the “decorum”…“life” of the Meeting. More than one “elder” may be involved…if there is a particular problem a “Clearness Committee” is formed to assist the “erring” Friend in resolving the problem…“disiplinary” measures are rarely taken against a Friend unless there is a firm break in fellowship.

If a person came chronically late to Meeting and disrupted Meeting on a regular basis…a few Friends would probably visit the late arriving Friend and offer them their “concern” for the well being of the meeting and ask how they could assist the late arriving Friend in making it on time for Meeting. The “eldering” is done in love and compassion and always for the “good of the Meeting”.

If a Friend say was teaching “First Day School” and was espousing “un-Quakerly” beliefs, the “eldering” may be more stern…the “erring” Friend would be replaced as teacher to the children if a consensus could not be reached.

Those young men and women who are “led” to join the military…which is against Quaker belief and practice…after discussion and prayer…usually with a “Clearness Committee” still chose to enter into military service…they are “held in the Light”…and while the Meetings blessing will not be given…they will not be shunned or “read out of Meeting”…for a people to believe God speaks to each of us and each of us has the capacity to follow the Light as we are led to take disiplinary measures against a Friend who truly can put forth their reasons for straying from the Disipline…we recongnize “that of God” within them and allow them to exercise their conscience and serve as they are led.

Most un-programmed meetings do not use the term “elder” any longer…although there are still meetings in the Mid-west and East coast that use that terminology…“eldering” is still used as a term.

 

[Mickey]

Is it true that some Quakers do not consider themselves as Chritians?

Yes that is quite true.

Very interesting. Depending on the group, they may or may not consider themselves to be Christians?
Do some Quakers believe in the Trinity?
Or a theology of heaven and hell?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Really, what is the Quaker Doctrine? You have a link to save me the hassle of seaching?

 

[ricmat]

Publisher,

From what I’ve seen here, Quakers generally put much emphasis on the second of the two great commandments - love thy neighbor. Quakers are leaders in many social justice situations, as an example.

I am puzzled in that there seems to be a deficiency in the first of the great commandments - “Love God above all else”. Perhaps I’ve missed something in all the discussions.

Catholics believe that the Earth, indeed the universe was created as a temple, which was given by God to mankind as a place to live, and more importantly, that man was created to give glory and praise to God. Some of this glory and praise can be via social justice issues (love of neighbor), but it is even more important to give glory and praise to God directly. That’s why it’s number 1 of 2.

And throughout the old testament, there is much emphasis on how God should actually be given this glory and praise. There is always a special place, there is always a special ritual. And the book of Revelation in its description of Heaven describes nothing less than the Catholic Mass (a liturgical ritual) - interspersed with highly metaphorical images.

I’m ashamed to say that for the first 50 years of my Catholic life, I had little appreciation for the liturgical aspects of showing God glory and praise. I find myself now hungry to worship God, in the way he intended - the Mass, and in the best possible way I can possibly give. And in the best possible way that the community can give.

We should give back to God the best of the beautiful things he has given to us. Things such as beautiful art, stained glass windows, liturgical music, etc. Indeed, the purpose of these things in our world is not merely for our own enjoyment, or even as a sacrifice or a tithe, but is to elevate our spirits, our souls, to the heavenly plane. Each word spoken by the priest is a word of love from God. Each word spoken by the congregation is a word of love to God. Every gesture by the priest and the congregation is a gesture of love to our beloved. Every song is a love song, no matter how poorly sung. And the Eucharist itself is a feast, reaffirming the marriage between God and Man, between Jesus and the Church, between our souls and His.

Heaven itself does not lack this beauty, and during Mass I imagine how wonderful it must be to be there in the presence of God engaged in an exchange of eternal love, joy, beauty, happiness, and bliss. The Mass is not exactly the same since we’re not actually in Heaven, but some say that it is the intersection of Heaven and Earth. And like David, I would build the Lord a magnificent temple and have a choir so angelic that that his people would taste a bit of Heaven and hunger for it even more. (Unlike Solomon - I lack the funds )

By way of contrast, it seems that the Quakers are quite bland with regard to these aspects of worship, preferring to “stay in one’s head” rather than offering back the works of God’s hands, and the works of our hands to the one who made them possible.

Dominion of the material world was given to us for a reason. If we stay in our heads, we are not using the talents God gave us. We are not acknowledging the world Good, as God has declared. And if our worldly actions are directed exclusively at our neighbor, then we’re missing the main point.

Or so it seems to me.

BTW - I didn’t post this as a sort of debate thing, I just wanted to get my thoughts down. Please respond if you wish, especially if I misunderstand the Quaker beliefs.

 

[erichael]

Publisher,

From what I’ve seen here, Quakers generally put much emphasis on the second of the two great commandments - love thy neighbor. Quakers are leaders in many social justice situations, as an example.

I am puzzled in that there seems to be a deficiency in the first of the great commandments - “Love God above all else”. Perhaps I’ve missed something in all the discussions.

Catholics believe that the Earth, indeed the universe was created as a temple, which was given by God to mankind as a place to live, and more importantly, that man was created to give glory and praise to God. Some of this glory and praise can be via social justice issues (love of neighbor), but it is even more important to give glory and praise to God directly. That’s why it’s number 1 of 2.

And throughout the old testament, there is much emphasis on how God should actually be given this glory and praise. There is always a special place, there is always a special ritual. And the book of Revelation in its description of Heaven describes nothing less than the Catholic Mass (a liturgical ritual) - interspersed with highly metaphorical images.

I’m ashamed to say that for the first 50 years of my Catholic life, I had little appreciation for the liturgical aspects of showing God glory and praise. I find myself now hungry to worship God, in the way he intended - the Mass, and in the best possible way I can possibly give. And in the best possible way that the community can give.

We should give back to God the best of the beautiful things he has given to us. Things such as beautiful art, stained glass windows, liturgical music, etc. Indeed, the purpose of these things in our world is not merely for our own enjoyment, or even as a sacrifice or a tithe, but is to elevate our spirits, our souls, to the heavenly plane. Each word spoken by the priest is a word of love from God. Each word spoken by the congregation is a word of love to God. Every gesture by the priest and the congregation is a gesture of love to our beloved. Every song is a love song, no matter how poorly sung. And the Eucharist itself is a feast, reaffirming the marriage between God and Man, between Jesus and the Church, between our souls and His.

Heaven itself does not lack this beauty, and during Mass I imagine how wonderful it must be to be there in the presence of God engaged in an exchange of eternal love, joy, beauty, happiness, and bliss. The Mass is not exactly the same since we’re not actually in Heaven, but some say that it is the intersection of Heaven and Earth. And like David, I would build the Lord a magnificent temple and have a choir so angelic that that his people would taste a bit of Heaven and hunger for it even more. (Unlike Solomon - I lack the funds )

By way of contrast, it seems that the Quakers are quite bland with regard to these aspects of worship, preferring to “stay in one’s head” rather than offering back the works of God’s hands, and the works of our hands to the one who made them possible.

Dominion of the material world was given to us for a reason. If we stay in our heads, we are not using the talents God gave us. We are not acknowledging the world Good, as God has declared. And if our worldly actions are directed exclusively at our neighbor, then we’re missing the main point.

Or so it seems to me.

BTW - I didn’t post this as a sort of debate thing, I just wanted to get my thoughts down. Please respond if you wish, especially if I misunderstand the Quaker beliefs.

I am so very happy you were able to articulate exactly what I believe. What you described is the essence of Catholic piety. Amen!

 

[Publisher]

Very interesting. Depending on the group, they may or may not consider themselves to be Christians?
Do some Quakers believe in the Trinity?
Or a theology of heaven and hell?

Most Friends have a “Christian” understanding of belief. Most Friends believe in the Triune God…they may not use non biblical termonology…I don’t call myself a “trinitarian” but choose to use biblical language instead. I do believe that God SOMEHOW made Himself known in Jesus of Nazareth…in the man Jesus, God was made known…God dwelled among us…"the Word became flesh and dwelled among us’…“he did not see equality with God something to be grasped and clung to…but set it aside and emptied himself and became a servant”…“He is the exact representation of the Invisible God”. Jesus is Lord.

There are those who would also believe in Jesus of Nazareth as a great teacher or religious leader…ascribe to his teachings concerning “love one another”…“pray for one another”…etc and consider themselves “unitarian”…

Since we believe “that of God” resides in each of us and “that of God” is to be sought and Listened to…cultivated…embraced…“incarnated” into our daily lives…theological differences between us in our respective Meetings aren’t an issue. If it does become an issue…the Friend may request a “letter of transfer” from the Monthly Meeting to release him or her from their obligations stating they are a member in good standing to present to the religious body they wish to move to…some Friends request “dual membership”…these are rarely granted after time spent with the “Clearness Committee” since joining another group oftentimes is in conflict with Friends teachings and “lifestyle”.

Most Friends do have some concept of “heaven” and “hell”…but we don’t give it a whole lot of “play time” as we believe the “afterlife” will take care of itself…we are to be concerned with this life…“Eternity…Eternal Life”…begins NOW…we live within the Kingdom of God NOW…we are the People of God NOW in this life…we do not serve God for a “reward”…the “reward” is serving God and seeking to make the world we live in better and we seek to establish the “Peaceable Kingdom” where we reside in this world.

In the book of Faith and Practice of each respective Monthly or Yearly Meeting…there may not even be a reference to “heaven” or the “afterlife”…IF heaven exists…it must begin NOW…if only the sanctified enter heaven…then santification must begin NOW…if you want to play the piano like a master when you get to heaven…you should start taking lessons NOW.

 

[Publisher]

Really, what is the Quaker Doctrine? You have a link to save me the hassle of seaching?

quakerinfo.org/quakerism/beliefs.html

While Friends may differ on “religious” belief…what binds us together is we believe “that of God” dwells in each of us…that God is immanent and Truly Present among us…and each of us have direct and unmediated acess to God without need of priest or pastor…no religous rite or ritual is required to be performed to us of for us by another individual…each of us is priest and minister.

 

[Mickey]

Most Friends have a “Christian” understanding of belief.

Most Friends believe in the Triune God

I must admit…before reading some of this thread…I had very little knowledge of Quakerism. I did not know much about their beliefs or practices. Now I am more confused than ever! It seems like an eclectic free-for-all.

I do believe that God SOMEHOW made Himself known in Jesus of Nazareth

Somehow?

There are those who would also believe in Jesus of Nazareth as a great teacher or religious leader

Yes. Islam falls into that category.

IF heaven exists…it must begin NOW…if only the sanctified enter heaven…then santification must begin NOW

All of the “ifs” are reminiscent of agnosticism.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,

From what I’ve seen here, Quakers generally put much emphasis on the second of the two great commandments - love thy neighbor. Quakers are leaders in many social justice situations, as an example.

I am puzzled in that there seems to be a deficiency in the first of the great commandments - “Love God above all else”. Perhaps I’ve missed something in all the discussions.

Catholics believe that the Earth, indeed the universe was created as a temple, which was given by God to mankind as a place to live, and more importantly, that man was created to give glory and praise to God. Some of this glory and praise can be via social justice issues (love of neighbor), but it is even more important to give glory and praise to God directly. That’s why it’s number 1 of 2.

And throughout the old testament, there is much emphasis on how God should actually be given this glory and praise. There is always a special place, there is always a special ritual. And the book of Revelation in its description of Heaven describes nothing less than the Catholic Mass (a liturgical ritual) - interspersed with highly metaphorical images.

I’m ashamed to say that for the first 50 years of my Catholic life, I had little appreciation for the liturgical aspects of showing God glory and praise. I find myself now hungry to worship God, in the way he intended - the Mass, and in the best possible way I can possibly give. And in the best possible way that the community can give.

We should give back to God the best of the beautiful things he has given to us. Things such as beautiful art, stained glass windows, liturgical music, etc. Indeed, the purpose of these things in our world is not merely for our own enjoyment, or even as a sacrifice or a tithe, but is to elevate our spirits, our souls, to the heavenly plane. Each word spoken by the priest is a word of love from God. Each word spoken by the congregation is a word of love to God. Every gesture by the priest and the congregation is a gesture of love to our beloved. Every song is a love song, no matter how poorly sung. And the Eucharist itself is a feast, reaffirming the marriage between God and Man, between Jesus and the Church, between our souls and His.

Heaven itself does not lack this beauty, and during Mass I imagine how wonderful it must be to be there in the presence of God engaged in an exchange of eternal love, joy, beauty, happiness, and bliss. The Mass is not exactly the same since we’re not actually in Heaven, but some say that it is the intersection of Heaven and Earth. And like David, I would build the Lord a magnificent temple and have a choir so angelic that that his people would taste a bit of Heaven and hunger for it even more. (Unlike Solomon - I lack the funds )

By way of contrast, it seems that the Quakers are quite bland with regard to these aspects of worship, preferring to “stay in one’s head” rather than offering back the works of God’s hands, and the works of our hands to the one who made them possible.

Dominion of the material world was given to us for a reason. If we stay in our heads, we are not using the talents God gave us. We are not acknowledging the world Good, as God has declared. And if our worldly actions are directed exclusively at our neighbor, then we’re missing the main point.

Or so it seems to me.

BTW - I didn’t post this as a sort of debate thing, I just wanted to get my thoughts down. Please respond if you wish, especially if I misunderstand the Quaker beliefs.

While Friends have no problem with “stained glass”…“art” etc…we do not believe these things to be “sacred” in and of themselves. There is no place that is more sacred than another…God is Present no matter where we are…each place we enter…every road we drive on…every path we tread…every mountain we look on with awe and majesty…every ocean and stream is Sacred…it is the Presence of God…“the earth is the Lords”…“where shall I flee from Your Presence…if I make my bed in hell…You are there…”

We seek to embrace the sacred in totality…each meal…each conversation…Friends witness is we do not wish to put “things”…above God and others…stained glass…gold chalices…majestic cathedrals are all well and good…but we seek to embody the idea of a “Temple not made with hands”…

Folowing is the Stewardship Testimony of a group of British Friends…

“Friends worldwide have accepted the idea that the testimony of equality in the economic realm implies a commitment to the right sharing of the world’s resources. We recognize that the well-being of the Earth is a fundamental spiritual concern. From the beginning, it was through the wonders of nature that people saw God. How we treat the Earth and its creatures is a basic part of our relationship with God. Our planet as a whole, not just the small parts of it in our immediate custody, requires our responsible attention. Friends are indeed called to walk gently on the Earth. Wasteful and extravagant consumption is a major cause of destruction of the environment. Friends are called to become models and patterns of simple living and concern for the Earth.”