A Quaker Understanding...

[Barbkw]

Are you saying that you reject the incarnation of God, that the Holy Spirit did not come to Mary and create the embryo of Jesus in her womb?

 

[Publisher]

Into the next generation, and the generation after that; you see no problem with Sacred Scripture being read to children - and taught to children - as if the events were similar in scope to Mother Goose or Cat in the Hat?

I would hope that these stories would inspire children to look deep within themselves to that Divine Center where the Image of God dwells…and these stories would cause these children…now as adults…to offer food to the needy…care for the sick…love for the dying…seek peace in this world…live justly, show mercy and walk humbly with thier God…that is the value I find in scripture…it calls us to look beyond the words…beyond the stories and myths and live "in that virture and power of life which takes away the occasion of war.’

 

[Publisher]

Are you saying that you reject the incarnation of God, that the Holy Spirit did not come to Mary and create the embryo of Jesus in her womb?

I believe that God entered our humanity in the man Jesus of Nazareth. In this man God was made known in our world. Those that came to believe in him understood that in some way God was in their midst.

God doesn’t need “virgin births” to enter our world…the stories in Matthew and Luke teach a deep truth…God entered our world in the life of Jesus of Nazareth.

If you find comfort in those stories and they inspire you to love your neighbor, care for the destitute, the lonely, the sick. Care for those around you with a deep devoted love and humanity…I say great…they do not inspire me in that way.

There are Friends who do beleive as you do…but it is not a requirement.

 

[Barbkw]

I would hope that these stories would inspire children to look deep within themselves to that Divine Center where the Image of God dwells…’

When Sacred Scripture is a book of myths and fables, how are children to “feel” that the “Divine Center” is any more real to them than fable and myth?

 

[Publisher]

When Sacred Scripture is a book of myths and fables, how are children to “feel” that the “Divine Center” is any more real to them than fable and myth?

They will Experience the Divine in their lives. Quakers do not believe we must believe because it is written in a book or spoken from the pulpit…it must be experiential…“God is know experimentally.”

 

[Barbkw]

Why is God so incapable in your religion?

He’s not large enough to save people through the parting of water, the collapse of buildings, the changing of water to wine, coming to humanity through the Holy Spirit?

He can’t provide proof to people in miracles such as walking on water or the raising of the dead?

Do you also doubt His Resurrection? Is that also myth and fable?

 

[Publisher]

Why is God so incapable in your religion?

He’s not large enough to save people through the parting of water, the collapse of buildings, the changing of water to wine, coming to humanity through the Holy Spirit?

He can’t provide proof to people in miracles such as walking on water or the raising of the dead?

Do you also doubt His Resurrection? Is that also myth and fable?

If you find peace in your faith and need external “miracles” to sustain you…I honor your belief…it is not mine…but I honor your belief.

I do not doubt that Christ is in our midst…I have experienced his Presence and Ministry.

I echo with Paul…“The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.”…while I may not believe Adam lived in a garden and was deceived by a talking snake…I have experienced this “quickening Spirit” Paul spoke of.

 

[Barbkw]

If you find peace in your faith and need external “miracles” to sustain you…I honor your belief…it is not mine…but I honor your belief.

It isn’t about my need, it’s about believing in Jesus’ Divinity, in His mission, and in His Apostles and in His Church.

He brought these miracles to His people, He intervened in their lives. They knew Him as God the Son.

To deny His capablities and His miracles is either being indignant and hard hearted like Judas or being a perpetual doubter greater than Thomas.

 

[Publisher]

It isn’t about my need, it’s about believing in Jesus’ Divinity, in His mission, and in His Apostles and in His Church.

He brought these miracles to His people, He intervened in their lives. They knew Him as God the Son.

To deny His capablities and His miracles is either being indignant and hard hearted like Judas or being a perpetual doubter greater than Thomas.

I dont’ deny his capability…I question the need for him to do so…while I’ve never been told I’m “hard hearted like Judas” before…I do identify with Thomas…although…I don’t think Thomas is portrayed as a “perpetual doubter” in scripture…perhaps your insight into such matters teaches you otherwise.

 

[ricmat]

Publisher,

For Quakers, does such a thing as absolute Truth exist?

You talk about “our Meeting” which indicates that other meetings might have differing views from your meeting.

Do Quaker meetings agree on what is morally right, and what is morally wrong?

If they don’t agree, who decides who is correct, or which meeting is correct?

At what point might someone’s Discovery be so far…out of bounds…that he is asked to go elsewhere?

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,

For Quakers, does such a thing as absolute Truth exist?

You talk about “our Meeting” which indicates that other meetings might have differing views from your meeting.

Do Quaker meetings agree on what is morally right, and what is morally wrong?

If they don’t agree, who decides who is correct, or which meeting is correct?

At what point might someone’s Discovery be so far…out of bounds…that he is asked to go elsewhere?

Truth does exist as an absolute…this Truth is found in God. Truth is something lived…not something “believed” as in a set of doctrines or dogmas.

Doctine is a “construct” we humans use to “frame Truth”…but it is not Truth itself…that is found in God…He is Truth…

Each Meeting must follow the Light Within…we seek to undertand “morality” through discernment, discussion, prayer, scripture, experience and “waiting upon the Lord”. This can be a lengthy process.

We seek to understand our world and experience. We frame our “moraltiy” around how one deals with one’s neighbor…how is love manifested in our repsonses…what will make the person seeking our help whole and productive.

If a persons personal morality goes agains that of the Meeting, he or she is “eldered” by some more experienced Friends seeking to assist the Friend who may be struggling with issues.

Example, a Friend who come chronically late to Meeting and disturbs others as they take their seat will be taken aside by some of the “elders” of the Meeting and the issue will be discussed.

We seek to hold the dignity of our members in sacred trust. If a Friend goes against the principles of the Meeting…we may choose to “read them out of Meeting”…OR in most cases we will continue to work with them and speak to that of God within them.

In my short 56 years…37 of it in the Society of Friends, I have only witnessed one such event…a Friend murdered a person…stole from him…and remained “unrepentant” and disparaged the Meetings efforts to minister to this man…he withdrew and through the “sense of the Meeting”, removed from the rolls of the Monthly Meeting.

 

[ricmat]

Truth does exist as an absolute…this Truth is found in God. Truth is something lived…not something “believed” as in a set of doctrines or dogmas.

One must believe something before one lives it. Apparently you think that non-Quakers just believe stuff, and don’t live it.

Each Meeting must follow the Light Within…we seek to undertand “morality” through discernment, discussion, prayer, scripture, experience and “waiting upon the Lord”. This can be a lengthy process.

But it is not a universal process, so different people “understand morality” in different ways. Ways that could contradict each other. But each can insist that he/she is right, and whoever disagrees is wrong.

If a persons personal morality goes agains that of the Meeting, he or she is “eldered” by some more experienced Friends seeking to assist the Friend who may be struggling with issues.

So how do you know the elder is right, and the “person” is wrong? Who decides?

We seek to hold the dignity of our members in sacred trust. If a Friend goes against the principles of the Meeting…we may choose to “read them out of Meeting”…OR in most cases we will continue to work with them and speak to that of God within them.

So you’d kick somebody out who firmly believes that they have discovered the light? Just because you disagree with him? Can he start his own meeting and enlist those who agree with him?

 

[Publisher]

One must believe something before one lives it. Apparently you think that non-Quakers just believe stuff, and don’t live it.

No that is your statement…not mine…Friends do believe God speaks to us. We beleive that kindness and mercy and peace are the things God is concerned with…“be at peace with all men…” “love one another…” “the law and the prophets”…hang on the two greatest commandments…all other belief are “judged” by how these issues are met.

But it is not a universal process, so different people “understand morality” in different ways. Ways that could contradict each other. But each can insist that he/she is right, and whoever disagrees is wrong.

No, IT IS a universal process. Each Friends Meeting uses the same process to determine any given issue. We have been at odds with other Meetings on making decisions…especially on gay marriage…but we still work with other Friends…our “differences” must be worked out collectively…seeking the mind and will of God…and yes…it may take decades sometimes for us to reach a consensus…but we still work together.

So how do you know the elder is right, and the “person” is wrong? Who decides?

The Meeting decides how the Meeting will conduct it’s business and affairs…if an individual Friend feels strongly enough about any issue, he or she may continue to bring it before the Meeting for discussion and prayer…the “elder” may indeed be wrong on any issue…we make decisions together…collectivly…we do not believe that “majority rules”…the “majority” may be wrong…even the dissenter may be speaking the “Word of the Lord” and it is we who are deaf to His call…we continue to discuss and pray until the Meeting reaches consensus…we don’t “vote” on issues…the Meeting must agree on any particular issue before the Meeting as a whole takes action…one person may slow the process…but their voice is still given ear to.

So you’d kick somebody out who firmly believes that they have discovered the light? Just because you disagree with him?

Can he start his own meeting and enlist those who agree with him?

There is a process for beginning a new Meeting…he could start a new Meeting without the process occuring…as many Independent Meetings in the West have begun. Most "Independent Friends to help facilitate its service joins with Yearly Meetings…and that too entails a process.

As I said…we rarely remove anyone…“kick anyone out” who disagrees with us on any given issue…we do not “believe by ourselves what we want”…we live in community with one another and seek each others experience and advise…and if it takes years for us to come to agreement…we’ll take years.

The decision a Meeting makes is not “infallible”…there have been parts in our short history where a group relized they were wrong…and sought reconcilliation with the Meeting they were at odd…God still speaks to us…and while we may sometimes misunderstand what we Hear…He is faithful and we’ll eventually Listen to His Voice…He is patient and merciful…and calls us to be the same.

 

[Loboto-Me]

It seems to me that the Quaker religion relies on feelings to experience God with? So if you’re not feeling it, that would mean that God doesn’t exsist since it’s all about experiencing God.

I think that there are many good ideas, but I see much new age, go with the flow type activity and belief.

I guess I can’t get my mind around this since we do not always “feel” God, near us, and who’s to say that it’s not the Evil one playing with your mind when one of your Friends does one thing, and the other of the friends does exactly the opposite, ultimately both believing that they are “experiencing” God’s truth?

Like Pilate asked as he was going to crucify Christ… “What is truth?”

ETA: When I wrote this post, I hadn’t read page 4 yet. Now I see that you guys are touching on the subject of Truth (or relativism)… I’m off to read it now

 

[Publisher]

It seems to me that the Quaker religion relies on feelings to experience God with? So if you’re not feeling it, that would mean that God doesn’t exsist since it’s all about experiencing God.

I think that there are many good ideas, but I see much new age, go with the flow type activity and belief.

I guess I can’t get my mind around this since we do not always “feel” God, near us, and who’s to say that it’s not the Evil one playing with your mind when one of your Friends does one thing, and the other of the friends does exactly the opposite, ultimately both believing that they are “experiencing” God’s truth?

Like Pilate asked as he was going to crucify Christ… “What is truth?”

ETA: When I wrote this post, I hadn’t read page 4 yet. Now I see that you guys are touching on the subject of Truth (or relativism)… I’m off to read it now

I would commend you to the Light…God does not always give the same cookie cutter insturction on any given subject…He alone knows the past and future…He knows what is best for the individual and for the Meeting.

We take the discernment of God’s mind and will very seriously. The difference between us…you believe your heirarchy has the answers and accept them on faith…we don’t believe anyone has the answers but God…and seeking His will and discerning the direction we are led is a weighty responsibility…but we believe also in grace and mercy…“His strength is manifest in our weakness.”

 

[Barbkw]

Interesting that you mention the law.

The law of God isn’t well accepted by all men in peace. God isn’t at peace with the behavior of all men.

Puts a bit of a twist in your “be at peace with all men” motto.

It isn’t possible in all cases to love one another and to be at peace with all men.

Tough love addresses the consequences of lifestyle choices and acknowledges that one day we each will cease to breath.

 

[Publisher]

Interesting that you mention the law.

The law of God isn’t well accepted by all men in peace. God isn’t at peace with the behavior of all men.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things to himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Puts a bit of a twist in your “be at peace with all men” motto.

It isn’t possible in all cases to love one another and to be at peace with all men.

Tough love addresses the consequences of a lifestyle choices and acknowledges that one day we each will cease to breath.

“As far as it is up to you, be at peace with all men.”

“We see through a glass darkly…but then face to face we will know…”

We must at times “wage peace”…“Peace I leave with you…not as the world gives…but as I give…”

What others do does not free me from my responsiblilty to do what I must…we are called to be People of Peace…what others do does not free me from living in peace with others.

No one said living in peace with others and seeking their welfare above our own was easy.

 

[Barbkw]

We take the discernment of God’s mind and will very seriously. The difference between us…you believe your heirarchy has the answers and accept them on faith…we don’t believe anyone has the answers but God…and seeking His will and discerning the direction we are led is a weighty responsibility…but we believe also in grace and mercy…“His strength is manifest in our weakness.”

You’ve discerned for yourself that homosexual acts are moral in the mind of God even when multiple statements of evidence exist both in the New and the Old Testament that they are not.

The Apostles lived with Jesus, they experienced Him after His Resurrection and His Assention, they were given the Holy Spirit with the responsiblity to preach the Gospels and form worshipping communities of unified believers.

The Apostles formed communities and sheparded their people in a unified belief about their experiences with Jesus. The Apostles passed on the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands to their bishops and to their priests.

These communities celebrated the Eucharist through ceremony, by first reading whatever Scripture they had.

Yes, we believe in the hierarchy established by the Apostles. Our Church doctrine rests on Sacred Scripture, the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles and the continued sheparding by the Magisterium (the Pope and the Bishops). We recite a Creed that states what the Catholic Church believes.

We continue to hold true to the same three core beliefs established in the Early Church, 2,000 years ago.

 

[Publisher]

You’ve discerned for yourself that homosexual acts are moral in the mind of God even when multiple statements of evidence exist both in the New and the Old Testament that they are not.

The Apostles lived with Jesus, they experienced Him after His Resurrection and His Assention, they were given the Holy Spirit with the responsiblity to preach the Gospels and form worshipping communities of unified believers.

The Apostles formed communities and sheparded their people in a unified belief about their experiences with Jesus. The Apostles passed on the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands to their bishops and to their priests.

These communities celebrated the Eucharist through ceremony, by first reading whatever Scripture they had.

Yes, we believe in the hierarchy established by the Apostles. Our Church doctrine rests on Sacred Scripture, the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles and the continued sheparding by the Magisterium (the Pope and the Bishops). We recite a Creed that states what the Catholic Church believes.

We continue to hold true to the same three core beliefs established in the Early Church, 2,000 years ago.

And I rejoice with your in your faith and seek to join you in praise to God for the love and mercy He has shown to us.

 

[Barbkw]

And I rejoice with your in your faith and seek to join you in praise to God for the love and mercy He has shown to us.

Does avoidance of conflict over moral issues satisfy God?