A Quaker Understanding...

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I wasn’t being sarcastic. Seriously, do two people post under your name?

Please refer to your Post #47.

Perhaps coming here and posting is some big joke for you.
Hi Barb: That is called a sock puppet. The forum administrators look for those and they do not allow them. Publisher has been on the forum for a good while, and if he were a sock puppet, he would have been gone long ago. BTW - I have learned a lot from him. If I were to become a Christian, I think I would be a Quaker.

Your friend
Sufjon
(I’m not a sock puppet either) 🙂
 
I always thought we were to rely on faith and not our feelings. You seem excessively dependent on feelings. I am offended that you would welcome a gay or lesbian into your meeting because you can see Christ within him even while holding a Catholic at a distainful distance, judging us to be a superstitious lot incapable of performing any of the many acts of kindness you repeatedly refer to in your posts. Is not THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST the world leader in all things charitable, coming to the aid of men everywhere including spiritualists like yourself for over two thousand years?

I would respectfully submit that you and your friends do not have a corner on the market of loving thy neighbour as thyself and suggest you wipe your glasses clean and look for the Christ you so easily see in a wilful sexual deviat, in a God-fearing Catholic brother. Your sense of superiority rankles, but I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope your actual sentiments are less damning than the words you put to print. I guess us “Catholics” are just behind the times in believing in the ancient myths of virgin births and miraculous healings.
 
I always thought we were to rely on faith and not our feelings. You seem excessively dependent on feelings. I am offended that you would welcome a gay or lesbian into your meeting because you can see Christ within him even while holding a Catholic at a distainful distance, judging us to be a superstitious lot incapable of performing any of the many acts of kindness you repeatedly refer to in your posts. Is not THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST the world leader in all things charitable, coming to the aid of men everywhere including spiritualists like yourself for over two thousand years?

I would respectfully submit that you and your friends do not have a corner on the market of loving thy neighbour as thyself and suggest you wipe your glasses clean and look for the Christ you so easily see in a wilful sexual deviat, in a God-fearing Catholic brother. Your sense of superiority rankles, but I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope your actual sentiments are less damning than the words you put to print. I guess us “Catholics” are just behind the times in believing in the ancient myths of virgin births and miraculous healings.
 
I’ve been curious about the Friends / Quakerism for a long time. This thread has been very informative.

Thanks for sharing.
 
I’ve been curious about the Friends / Quakerism for a long time. This thread has been very informative.

Thanks for sharing.
Yes, Publisher, thank you for sharing. Before reading this thread, I had no idea that the Quakers were so far removed from Catholic teaching, or even from most protestant teaching.

Your comments would not have surprised me if you were a member of a church founded in the last few months or years (The Church of Woodstock comes to mind, as does another fictional church which my Aunt used to mention - “The Church of What’s Happening Now.”)

If you search, and you think you’ve found the answer (no matter what it is), then, by golly, you actually have found it! What a deal. Everybody can believe what they want, and still live in total tolerant harmony. We all agree to disagree. No creeds. No pesky Tradition to worry about. The Bible can be interpreted at will per the need du-jour. And the narrow path turns out to be very very wide. No pain, no suffering, no chastisement of sinners, no crosses to bear. Except those which one takes great pride in bearing, so as to prove ones love of mankind, to mankind.

We must love our enemies, of course, as you point out. And I suppose that it doesn’t even hurt to call them Friend, but we must love them despite their sins, and not love them so much that we tolerate or endorse their sins.

As GK Chesterton said: “Tolerance is the virtue of the man with no convictions.”

Now, having said all this, I also have no doubt that you are a fine fine person who loves God, and his fellow human beings. It just seems to me that we are called to do battle with evil for our sake and the sake of others. “War is not the answer”, except, sometimes it actually is.
 
Yes, Publisher, thank you for sharing. Before reading this thread, I had no idea that the Quakers were so far removed from Catholic teaching, or even from most protestant teaching.

Your comments would not have surprised me if you were a member of a church founded in the last few months or years (The Church of Woodstock comes to mind, as does another fictional church which my Aunt used to mention - “The Church of What’s Happening Now.”)

If you search, and you think you’ve found the answer (no matter what it is), then, by golly, you actually have found it! What a deal. Everybody can believe what they want, and still live in total tolerant harmony. We all agree to disagree. No creeds. No pesky Tradition to worry about. The Bible can be interpreted at will per the need du-jour. And the narrow path turns out to be very very wide. No pain, no suffering, no chastisement of sinners, no crosses to bear. Except those which one takes great pride in bearing, so as to prove ones love of mankind, to mankind.

We must love our enemies, of course, as you point out. And I suppose that it doesn’t even hurt to call them Friend, but we must love them despite their sins, and not love them so much that we tolerate or endorse their sins.

As GK Chesterton said: “Tolerance is the virtue of the man with no convictions.”

Now, having said all this, I also have no doubt that you are a fine fine person who loves God, and his fellow human beings. It just seems to me that we are called to do battle with evil for our sake and the sake of others. “War is not the answer”, except, sometimes it actually is.
We choose to fight only in the Lamb’s War…we know who wins.🙂

Here’s more info on the Lamb’s War…all-creatures.org/articles/pea-quakers.html

Jesus is recoreded as speaking to us of His Peace…the Shalom of God…“SHALOM comes from the root verb SHALOM meaning to be complete, perfect and full. Think about it, if you were to greet your family, friends and co-workers in the morning with “SHALOM” you would actually be giving this blessing to them. Shalom… may you be experience peace, wholeness, rest, safety, and harmony with God, yourself, and those around you.”…this is the “Peace” Friends seek to live within.
 
Yes, but you’re fighting like the French do. 😛

“Surrender is not the answer.” - ricmat.
Then you don’t understand the Friends stance on peace…“surrender” IS NOT the answer…resiting evil by doing good is.
 
Then you don’t understand the Friends stance on peace…“surrender” IS NOT the answer…resiting evil by doing good is.
Resisting evil by refusing to acknowledge that it exists, or by redefining evil as good, is not doing good.
 
Resisting evil by refusing to acknowledge that it exists, or by redefining evil as good, is not doing good.
I obviously have failed conveying the Quaker way…but that’s ok…you don’t need to understand why I live the way I do…you need to only follow the Light you have been given…and I alone am responsible to follow the Light as I understand and am led to do so.

Peace to you friend.
 
Publisher, perhaps you could enlighten me. Forty years ago my brother, a Quaker pastor of a conservative Friends Meeting Place (Church? Hall?) in southern California, tried to convince me of the spirituality of his communion with God whenever he ate or drank. In the ensuing years I’ve never understood how anyone could equate chowing down on a hot dog or burrito in Times Square while on a coffee break for example with the dignity, solemnity and sanctity of participating in the Eucharist. As a catholic I give thanks to the Lord for every meal I partake in, but never do I confuse my personal eating habits with the sacrament of Holy Communion. What say you?
 
Publisher, perhaps you could enlighten me. Forty years ago my brother, a Quaker pastor of a conservative Friends Meeting Place (Church? Hall?) in southern California, tried to convince me of the spirituality of his communion with God whenever he ate or drank. In the ensuing years I’ve never understood how anyone could equate chowing down on a hot dog or burrito in Times Square while on a coffee break for example with the dignity, solemnity and sanctity of participating in the Eucharist. As a catholic I give thanks to the Lord for every meal I partake in, but never do I confuse my personal eating habits with the sacrament of Holy Communion. What say you?
For Friends, life itself is a holy sacrament…all aspects of our lives is seen as the possibility for God to inhabit that particular moment in holiness and sanctity.

Each meal we share with one another carries with it the possibility of sharing “eucharist” with those present…an opportunity to recongnize the sacramental nature of the moment…Christ Himself is Truly Present where two or three are gathered together in His Name…not only for Meetings for Worhip…but any event where Christ is welcomed and acknowledged.

"Without getting too deep into theology, it is important to bring in here the fact that our understanding of the nature of the church is based on a realized eschatology of the new covenant. The old system has passed away, and Christ is present among us to lead us into an experience of the kingdom, here and now. Therefore, we reject all interim structures of authority, and seek in all ways to be obedient to the immediate leadership of Christ. As the Friends in Lausanne stated, “We believe that a corporate practice of the presence of God, a corporate knowledge of Christ in our midst, a common experience of the work of the living Spirit, constitute the supremely real sacrament of a Holy Communion.”

I believe your brother was seeking to convey the sacredness of every moment…it should have sacramental import…continuously seeking to return to that Diving Center of Truth and Light…“pray without ceasing”…we are the Church…we need no building nor ritual to encounter God Present among us in the Risen Christ…all things are received with graditute from His Hands…even a hot dog smothered with mustard or a burritto in Times Square…each moment is holy…each and every location on our world is holy…God is Present…“The Earth is the Lord’s and the fulness there of.” “Where can I flee to escape Thee? Though I ascent to the highest heaven…You are there…if I make my bed in hell…You are there…”

“We see all mankind tinged with deeper shadows and touched with Galilean glories.”
 
Again…you don’t understand the Quaker way…but that’s ok…you don’t need to…you need to only follow the Light you have been given…and I alone am responsible to follow the Light as I understand and am led to do so.

Peace to you friend.
I probably missed a couple of posts, but it seems like we’re going in circles here.

“…led to do so.” Again, this allows for totally contradictory definitions of good and evil, right and wrong.

With no defined dogma, no outside source of revelation, no Tradition based on the Apostles first hand interactions with Jesus, you have nothing left but “…follow the light as I understand and am led to do so.”

Good luck with that.

For myself, I’m not very smart - especially when it comes to finding the light. There are some occasions when I’ve depended only on “me, myself, and I” to follow the light, and now that I look back on those, I can clearly see that I managed to convince myself (or someone else did, if you know what I mean) that What I Wanted To Do was just fine. Hey, I even confirmed my beliefs with other “me, myself, and I” sorts of folks. But What I Wanted to Do actually was not fine. Abortion and artificial contraception come to mind. Thanks be to God that he left us the Catholic Church to help us with infusions of grace, not to mention dogmas.

You (Quakers) have thrown away so much. God gave us a toolbox to help us reach him, and you’ve picked out one hammer, and thrown away the other stuff. Our spiritual journey is risky, and we are attacked in many ways. Throwing away the tools / spiritual weapons just doesn’t seem wise to me.
 
I probably missed a couple of posts, but it seems like we’re going in circles here.

“…led to do so.” Again, this allows for totally contradictory definitions of good and evil, right and wrong.

With no defined dogma, no outside source of revelation, no Tradition based on the Apostles first hand interactions with Jesus, you have nothing left but “…follow the light as I understand and am led to do so.”

Good luck with that.

For myself, I’m not very smart - especially when it comes to finding the light. There are some occasions when I’ve depended only on “me, myself, and I” to follow the light, and now that I look back on those, I can clearly see that I managed to convince myself (or someone else did, if you know what I mean) that What I Wanted To Do was just fine. Hey, I even confirmed my beliefs with other “me, myself, and I” sorts of folks. But What I Wanted to Do actually was not fine. Abortion and artificial contraception come to mind. Thanks be to God that he left us the Catholic Church to help us with infusions of grace, not to mention dogmas.

You (Quakers) have thrown away so much. God gave us a toolbox to help us reach him, and you’ve picked out one hammer, and thrown away the other stuff. Our spiritual journey is risky, and we are attacked in many ways. Throwing away the tools / spiritual weapons just doesn’t seem wise to me.
“We live in that virtue and power of life of which the apostles and prophets lived.”…“Thee tells me what Christ has said, and what the apostles have said…but what can thee say?” Each of us makes our response to God…He alone can judge our motives and heart.

We may have “thrown away so much” in your mind…but we say "Now to him who is able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand, according to the power that worketh in us; " God is the Builder we are the mortar and material…He has all the Tools to use on us as He needs. We can never reach God…He reached down to us…that is the message of Quakerism…“Christ is present among us to teach His People Himself”…it is a Journey of discernment and prayer…God is faithful and will “finish the work He began in us.”…“I am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.”

We are in Good Hands…the Best of Hands…We trust in the One who knows us best and loves us most.
 
Duh! Anybody out there? Your turn Publisher.
I’m sorry friend…did I not address your question in post #103…concerning your brother’s statement on hot dogs, burritos and the eucharist? Did I miss a post?
 
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