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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Fran, I think the Church should put more effort into drawing those lines in the first place for all the people like Pallas. Have you any idea what catechesis is Fran - and some others here?
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
I am not a newcomer to religion (and also older than you are
). I used to be a Christian (though not a Catholic) for some time, when I was young. Then I started to think about it in detail and discovered the huge contradictions in it.Of course I read quite a bit of the Bible and also read the catechism. They did not help to retain my faith… on the contrary. The more I looked, the more I felt that it has nothing to offer.
It is interesting that religion (in general) is most widespread in the regions where poverty, wars and sickness are rampant. People want to have hope that life is not as bad as it is, that there is “justice” in the afterlife. On the other hand, in the regions where there is peace, prosperity and well-being, religion is shrinking. Religion has nothing to offer to a happy person. Religion thrives on misery… As Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31, Matthew 9:12 so correctly displays. No wonder that in Europe religion is dying a slow death, but in Africa it is gaining acceptance.
That is very true.
That is not practical. Life is much more fun if one does not concentrate on something which does not offer a feasible return.
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ynotzap
Guest
To understand the powers at play the Church teaches through the words of St. Peter, that Jesus Christ came to redeem us from the works of Satan. Satan never controlled the will of Adam and Eve, but he did use his influence to deceive. Eve was deceived when promised that to eat of the apple, she would be like God, knowing good and evil. Adam to please Eve, gave in to the same temptation sinned grievously because they were given so much. It becomes obvious that they sinned because of self-love and pride. God did not interfere with their wills, and Satan could not force them against their wills. It was their free choice. So what forces were active, as I see it, it was God, the Devil, and Self. It was love of self,and not love of God, so Satan is not completely to blame but he is a definite factor, life is a spiritual warfare that every person must battle if he is to achieve Heaven and union with God. Of course, this is from Divine Revelation, a supernatural gift. It is a gift freely given by God through Jesus Christ. The battle is with self, and the influence Satan has over us, and we can not redeem ourselves, we need our Redeemer who is always available.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Vic, here’s what I know about catechesis:
I taught catechism to kids up to the age of 12/13 till a year ago. Had to stop.
Have a small, church sanctioned, bible study in my home and am hoping my parish will start one because I love this but it is a lot of work, which I’m willing to do.
Ynotzap is carrying on well.
Pallas Athene, in her/his own words is a fallen away christian. We thus cannot tell her/him anything he does not already know. At this point it’s between him and the Holy Spirit.
I think P.A. is sincere in his search for God. I find it odd how one could know so much and be turned away. God is not a bunch of rules we follow; He’s a creator who revealed Himself to us through Jesus. I think the loneliness one must feel after abandoning Christ
must be unpleasant, to say the least. I’m thinking of 2 Peter 2:21-22.
At this point the only thing is to lead P.A. to 1 Corinthians chapter 2.
I understand catechesis, it’s just that there’s not too much more to add.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
PALLAS ATHENE
I keep trying to leave, but!! :
You say:
It is interesting that religion (in general) is most widespread in the regions where poverty, wars and sickness are rampant. People want to have hope that life is not as bad as it is, that there is “justice” in the afterlife. On the other hand, in the regions where there is peace, prosperity and well-being, religion is shrinking. Religion has nothing to offer to a happy person. Religion thrives on misery… As Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31, Matthew 9:12 so correctly displays. No wonder that in Europe religion is dying a slow death, but in Africa it is gaining acceptance.
So you think Europe is a happy go lucky place?
You must have come here as a tourist.
And yet religion is waning. Yes. We do need to ask ourselves why.
What about the rich young man? Why do you suppose he walked away?
I don’t think Paul was poor and stupid. Explain that. It’s just that you’ve explained everything away for yourself.
So you think christianity is just a crutch?
Jesus said the kingdom of God starts here. Check out His talk with Nicodemus. What about the beatitudes? I wish I knew before that you used to be christian - I might have said some things differently.
So christianity is just to get to heaven? It does nothing for the world here and now? What about what it does for me personally? I think I did bring this up. How could something that works be fake??
If my watch is telling me the right time, it must be working. If it’s telling me it’s 2 pm and it REALLY is, how could I say that it’s broken? Dontcha love that watch? How would christians get along without it!
You could check the time on your watch with NASA They have the time perfect to the split second. Maybe the bible is the same. Maybe some encounter you’ve had is the same. Maybe we have encounters but don’t recognize them because we’re so turned off and have made up our minds to shut them out, for whatever reason.
Search for God while He may be found.
I repeat about the two powers. A choice must be made.
Fran
I keep trying to leave, but!! :
You say:
It is interesting that religion (in general) is most widespread in the regions where poverty, wars and sickness are rampant. People want to have hope that life is not as bad as it is, that there is “justice” in the afterlife. On the other hand, in the regions where there is peace, prosperity and well-being, religion is shrinking. Religion has nothing to offer to a happy person. Religion thrives on misery… As Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31, Matthew 9:12 so correctly displays. No wonder that in Europe religion is dying a slow death, but in Africa it is gaining acceptance.
So you think Europe is a happy go lucky place?
You must have come here as a tourist.
And yet religion is waning. Yes. We do need to ask ourselves why.
What about the rich young man? Why do you suppose he walked away?
I don’t think Paul was poor and stupid. Explain that. It’s just that you’ve explained everything away for yourself.
So you think christianity is just a crutch?
Jesus said the kingdom of God starts here. Check out His talk with Nicodemus. What about the beatitudes? I wish I knew before that you used to be christian - I might have said some things differently.
So christianity is just to get to heaven? It does nothing for the world here and now? What about what it does for me personally? I think I did bring this up. How could something that works be fake??
If my watch is telling me the right time, it must be working. If it’s telling me it’s 2 pm and it REALLY is, how could I say that it’s broken? Dontcha love that watch? How would christians get along without it!
You could check the time on your watch with NASA They have the time perfect to the split second. Maybe the bible is the same. Maybe some encounter you’ve had is the same. Maybe we have encounters but don’t recognize them because we’re so turned off and have made up our minds to shut them out, for whatever reason.
Search for God while He may be found.
I repeat about the two powers. A choice must be made.
Fran
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
Don’t try to give up your daily gig. As a seer you would not survive or make enough money to buy even tepid water
. I lived in Europe for quite a long time. It is not a place where I would wish to live the rest of my life. But one thing is certain: life in Europe is much better than it USED to be. The standard of living is much higher. People are healthier.ALL religions which offer a “better afterlife” can be used as a crutch.
No, I would not say that. People of good will (whether they are religious or not) try to help others, try to have a positive influence. But just looking at the works of someone you cannot discern if they are religious or not.
For Muslims, Hindus… etc. THEIR belief works to same way as yours works for you. They could ask you the same question.
“MAY” does not cut it. If you have a surefire, 100% reliable method, let me know.
As soon as I will be able to KNOW that those two “powers” exist, I will be in the position to make a choice.
You see, the alleged existence of the “adversary” (Satan), the consummate “evil”, whose only goal is to destroy God’s world is one of the reasons that I look at Christianity and say: “Bah, humbug”. An all-powerful and all-benevolent being letting the all-evil one run amok, allowing him to “trick” people into deserting God is an irrational nonsense. If there would be a child-molester in your neighborhood and you could get rid of him, wouldn’t you do it? Of course you would. And if you did NOT, you would have absolutely no excuse for letting him destroying the children. To allow evil is to condone evil.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
P.A.Don’t try to give up your daily gig. As a seer you would not survive or make enough money to buy even tepid water
ALL religions which offer a “better afterlife” can be used as a crutch.
No, I would not say that. People of good will (whether they are religious or not) try to help others, try to have a positive influence. But just looking at the works of someone you cannot discern if they are religious or not.
For Muslims, Hindus… etc. THEIR belief works to same way as yours works for you. They could ask you the same question.
“MAY” does not cut it. If you have a surefire, 100% reliable method, let me know.
As soon as I will be able to KNOW that those two “powers” exist, I will be in the position to make a choice.
You see, the alleged existence of the “adversary” (Satan), the consummate “evil”, whose only goal is to destroy God’s world is one of the reasons that I look at Christianity and say: “Bah, humbug”. An all-powerful and all-benevolent being letting the all-evil one run amok, allowing him to “trick” people into deserting God is an irrational nonsense. If there would be a child-molester in your neighborhood and you could get rid of him, wouldn’t you do it? Of course you would. And if you did NOT, you would have absolutely no excuse for letting him destroying the children. To allow evil is to condone evil.
Things in Europe ain’t so good. You must have lived here before the “boom”. Then the boom came. Nice. Now the boom is gone. People are buying less FOOD. Stores clsoed all over. Unemployment and taxes through the roof. Businesses closing every day. Roads and schools crumbling. Need I go on? Come back and visit and take a look.
People are leaving the church all the time. Many reasons. We taught that God is Love for two generations and have lost many by not also stating that God is just. We haven’t properly taught adults their religion. Protestants are much better at this. We should learn something from them.
So if I believe religion will only help me in an afterlife, what do I need it for? Just out of fear of hell? I want my religion to serve me now. I want it to lower my blood pressure now! The beatitudes help in this respect. Better to be humble than proudful. And what does it mean to be humble? To understand that you need God for survival, to depend on Him for everything. It makes this world look a lot more peaceful and manageable.
You mentioned Hindus, add Buddhists Taoists, Jews, and all other religions. They each have a light to shine. That light is God. We think Jesus is that light. No problem here. God is God.
You say:
But just looking at the works of someone you cannot discern if they are religious or not.
Okay. Something we agree on. That’s why I try to let it be known that I’m christian. The New Evangelization and all that.
Re the ever-present problem of an all powerful and all good God allowing evil. Greater minds than mine have not understood it. I used to think I did, but every 10 years or so I come up with a different problem to understanding it. So I’ve stopped trying. Check my brain at the door on this one. All is know is that there’s evil. There’s good. They both have to come from somewhere. We can’t really explain where - no matter how many books have been written on it. Mr. Augustine thought he had the answer too, but, alas, he also had to admit he didn’t know.
Maybe there are two gods?? Who can know for sure?? I just want to be on the side of the good one.
Maybe you could explain to me how the universes came into existence?
You’re asking many questions - how about answering one??
Fran
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NovusFidem
Guest
This. So much this.
I live a rather good life by our society’s standard (high-middle class, went to a good paid school, top of class, good friends, went to the best University in my Country, great parents, siblings, family, etc etc), and I was MISERABLE without knowing. After 3 years of Depression (“but your life is so good, why are you sad?”) I found out how empty my existence was.
Until I returned home!
Now I am unemployed (graduated just as Brazil entered an economic crisis), single (never had anyone to start with), 26yo and living with parents… and happier than I’ve ever been.
Indeed, religion thrives on misery - and brings about Joy. Misery is not only being poor of cash, or with hunger for food. Misery comes when you lack God - simple as that.
But we keep looking for Him in the wrong places, no wonder there are so many people considering abortion, assisted suicide…
We end up getting frustrated here, if we insist too much. Take your time; conversion is rarely instantaneous. There’ll be other opportunities to discuss this with Pallas
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NovusFidem
Guest
I like it too
I don’t think the first meaning even exists, but we usually are dishonest with ourselves. We say we are trying to understand the other side, but we are in fact just trying to destroy the other’s argument
(I know, I do that when I talk to pro-choicers all too often… I really don’t even try to understand their points, and end up just assuming the person I’m talking to is just another pro-abortion supporter 
)Glad you like it
I love it when I manage to say something that makes sense to someone else 
Pallas is looking for something “practical” pertaining to “religion”. Practical to her is a tool that would push the boulder easily for her. Practical to me is a pair of dumbbells I can use to make myself stronger so I can push the boulder.
I don’t know if a tool like Pallas is looking for exists in the world of “religion”; if she waits until she finds it, she might end up never moving that boulder. Now, a tool like mine may look like a chore, and takes time to master, but I know that we can get results from it (and I can move much more than just boulders now
).Pick your pair of dumbbells:
And a personal trainer (because you need someone who knows how to use those tools to instruct you, right? No one wants you to strain a muscle)
And go train (pray)! If someone invents a tool, at least you’ll be fit for any other exercise that may come up…
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
You look at the “small” picture. There is always a fluctuation. Look at the big picture. No more plagues, no more locusts. People, even the really poor ones today have a higher standard of living than the royalties had a few centuries ago. The poor ones do not suffer from malnutrition, they suffer from obesity, due tot the consumption of unhealthy foods.
I like to look at the forum of “Prayer Intentions”. I see pages and pages of supplicatory prayers, all asking for something. I wonder, how many of those prayers are “answered” in a positive manner.
To have an agreement is always uplifting.
I look at you with admiration in my eyes for being honest about it. Very rare experience.
By all means. The problem is that your question is incorrect. If I would ask you: “what is to the north from the North Pole”… you could answer: “incorrect question, the direction of ‘north’ cannot be defined at the North Pole”. The same is here: “the Universe is ALL there is”, the properties of “before” or “outside” cannot be defined FOR the universe.
In all the millennia before Einstein’s theory of relativity was developed, people has this “metaphysical concept”: they thought that there is an absolute space and an absolute time, and the universe was something like a balloon in an empty room. They thought that there was a “before” and an “after” with a point when the universe “popped” (or was created) into existence.
This metaphysical picture is “outdated”. There is no absolute time. Time and space are the properties of the space-time-matter-energy universe. The universe simply “IS”, it simply “EXISTS”. There is no vast realm of “nothingness”, in which the balloon of the universe is “drifting”. Now, if you so choose you might present a slightly different picture: the universe consists of two “parts”, the material one and the “immaterial” one. You might suggest that the “immaterial” one is primary and it created the material one… but there is no need for this assumption, and no explanation for the process itself.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Well put. I like to say that we have a heart shaped hole in us that only God can fill.This. So much this.
I live a rather good life by our society’s standard (high-middle class, went to a good paid school, top of class, good friends, went to the best University in my Country, great parents, siblings, family, etc etc), and I was MISERABLE without knowing. After 3 years of Depression (“but your life is so good, why are you sad?”) I found out how empty my existence was.
Until I returned home!
Now I am unemployed (graduated just as Brazil entered an economic crisis), single (never had anyone to start with), 26yo and living with parents… and happier than I’ve ever been.
Indeed, religion thrives on misery - and brings about Joy. Misery is not only being poor of cash, or with hunger for food. Misery comes when you lack God - simple as that.
But we keep looking for Him in the wrong places, no wonder there are so many people considering abortion, assisted suicide…
We end up getting frustrated here, if we insist too much. Take your time; conversion is rarely instantaneous. There’ll be other opportunities to discuss this with Pallas
Sometimes we come to God slowly. Sometimes we have to hit bottom, or realize how useless every material thing is in order to be quiet and be able to hear his voice.
When we’re looking for Him in all the wrong places, there’s too much noise and we can’t hear Him.
The only tool to push that boulder you speak of is Jesus. We have to look for Him. That’s why I said “seek God while He may be found”. Sometimes our hearts become hard and then it’s difficult for anything to get in. Find Him while the heart is soft and pliable.
You say many important things N.F. The images you used were very nice too. Sometimes people agree with you so they don’t reply.
I often wonder: What’s the difference between you and P.A.? I wish I could understand it better. Why one accepts and another finds it so difficult.
Fran
p.s. My father was born in Sao Paolo.
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NovusFidem
Guest
Well, there are many differences one can find (we are different people, after all). Here’s one:
One of the things I went through to accept God was to become humble. Not humble as in “Oh, superior being, have pity on me”, but humble in the sense that, although I have always been an overall great person (as in, above average), I am not God.
So, I can’t change the big picture. I can’t change even the medium picture. No one can - you have powerful people like Obama, influential people like the Pope and Gandhi, and yet nothing really changes. Nothing “big” at least. Why would my lil unemployed self be any different?
Then, I looked at the zen koans I mentioned (and pondered on them). I also took a look at some silly motivational messages:
“Before preparing to improve the world, first look around your own home three times.” - Chinese Proverb
“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” - Gandhi
“If you want to change the world, start by changing yourself.” - Sa’eed Awad
“Change yourself and your world will follow.”
“Want to change the world? Start by making your bed everyday.” - Admiral William H. McRaven
Those are small stuff that we have to change, and they were the very first step to me. This is the smallest picture we can look at: how we think. Then, the second smallest: how we act. Then the third: what we do. What we change. What the changes we do change in our neighbourhood/classroom/workplace. Etc etc. It is still small, compared to the World. But I AM small! So changing myself is a big change already (and the hardest change).
Did it change the world? Yeah, a bit. I may not have ended World hunger, but I fed some people when I had spare. Very small changes: I used to take people from around my University to lunch; most came from far away States just for medical treatment (Hospital das Clínicas de São Paulo), and were really poor and had no money after being released from the Hospital. So, I didn’t change the world, but I certainly made their day a bit better, and that (I found out) was good for the two of us.
My world got a bit brighter. There may be many bad people and bad things happening, but I’ve seen miracles; I’ve met good people (strangers are just friends we haven’t met, right?); I’ve done some good, and been remembered for it in SOME cases (not all; you know, hide from the left hand the good you do with your right hand, or something)
I’ve done good myself. I gave up trying for the prestige and fortunes of being a doctor (couldn’t pass the entrance exam), and decided to settle for nursing school, in which I got to meet some wonderful people who were having a terrible day (I worked with cancer patients), and I helped make their day better.
Even if God doesn’t exist, just doing what He asked of me (humble **Obedience **in deference to one who knows better than me) has done wonders to my world. The people around me are happy. I, who’ve been through depression and made people miserable with me, was able to change the picture!
Now I try to pass along the message. There is healing in the “religion” pill, you just need to swallow it
Oh, boy! If you guys ever come visit, contact me! I’d love to meet you!!
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
In our actions? Probably not much, except I don’t go to church and don’t worship.
This question could be directed to both parties.
Why is it that one accepts the stark physical reality so easily, and the other one cannot let go of the security blanket? Don’t take this to be derogatory, I was hanging unto my security blanket for quite a long time, until I realized that there is nothing “out there”. Contrary to popular assumptions it is a very liberating and uplifting step. Don’t ask for anything, because it will not be answered. Be your own “boss”. Enjoy your life because that is all you get. Help others to let them enjoy their life. Don’t be scared about doing what is good for you, but make sure you don’t trample of other peoples’ toes. Live and let live. Trifles like this. On the contrary, if you look at the Moral Theology forum, I don’t understand how can you read those posts without feeling frustrating and depressed. People being ashamed and guilty of the most natural activities of life. We make choices, and sometimes they are the incorrect ones. We choose the “wrong” partner. Instead of taking a civilized exit and try again, you must either stay in a loveless, destructive relationship, or stay celibate. (Annulment is a lengthy and uncertain process.) Marriages are NOT made in heaven.
This is the other side of the picture that believers are unwilling to look at.
Very well put, but I said something entirely different. Of course, individually we cannot change the “big picture”, but we can all LOOK at it. As you said, we can make small differences, but they all make the “big picture” a little better.
My remark was only directed to the assumption that life is not much different than it used to be in the past. It is much different and much better than it was even few decades ago. “The good old times are today”.
The good news is that you don’t need the religion pill. You can do all that you described, make small changes in your life and in other peoples’ lives without religion. I would not want to insult you by thinking that all your good actions are due to the fact that you are a believer. Obviously you are good person, and your belief is merely “icing on the cake”.Now I try to pass along the message. There is healing in the “religion” pill, you just need to swallow it
As I said to Fran, just by looking at the works of two good people, you cannot tell which one is religious and which one is not.
One more remark, In the OP I asked what does “love” mean in conjunction to God. The answer is twofold: “worship” and “obedience”. At least that is the essence of the answers I have received so far.
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NovusFidem
Guest
This is where you see why religion matters: I wasn’t always a good person.
Sure, I was nice, people liked me. But I did good things to others “so they would do good things to me”.
See, I was always the best student during school. I was cute and all, and I was smart enough to know that I needed to be careful when socializing with others (avoid bullying). I was the teacher’s pet already, and wanted approval from everyone.
So, I used to help others. I would help them study just before exams, explaining everything that would be on the test. I would even help them cheat at exams. Once I received all 3 versions of our Geometry test and did all of them, just so people could get the correct answers. One time I managed to create a systematic network in order to pass our English test answers to a girl who was about to fail the module (the teacher placed her on the other side of the classroom, all the way to the back).
Let’s ignore for once the morality of cheating on school exams. For someone who looks over my actions: “oh, she’s helping her colleagues!”, and indeed,** I wanted to help them**. But I also wanted them to like me. I wanted them to remember what I did so they wouldn’t bully me.
I did what I did because it was going to benefit me. There’s no love in those actions, no sacrifice on my part (I enjoyed Geometry, and would usually answer all 3 versions of the test for FUN). Sometimes, if I disliked the person, I would even pass wrong answers on purpose (a guy got a 70% on his test and thanked me, not even asking why I got 100% on the same test).
For one who looks from the outside, indeed. What’s the difference from a religious good work from another work?
And, all I can say: look at the smaller picture.
What was the smaller picture I told you about?
What we do will look just like what others do, no matter the religion. But the change happened in me. Inside me. I know why I did what I did.
Today, I could care less if someone disliked me. Heck, you are annoyed that I am here preaching, pro-abortionists have the chills when I come along in their discussions, and yet I am content with doing my part.
The change happened inside me, and the whole world got brighter! I still do the same things I did (except cheating; that’s wrong
), I still donate my old stuff, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, treat others with courtesy etc etc. Nothing changed in the world, but EVERYTHING changed in MY world.Now, life is worth living!
Oook. That’s not the answers I saw, but let’s roll with it. What do you feel about those answers? Is something wrong with them or are they satisfactory to your curiosity?
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
Obviously I cannot know anything about you, except what you revealed. In my world you are/were a good person. Kind and helpful to others.
What is wrong with that? There is a true saying: “what goes around, comes around”. You showed a good example by being kind and helpful, and you “taught” others by example. You know: “if necessary, use words…” as Francis of Assisi allegedly said.
Nothing whatsoever. Good works need no scrutiny, need no explanation. Only “bad” or “seemingly bad” actions need to be scrutinized and the “why” behind them explored. If you kill someone, it does matter “why” you did it, self-defense or the desire to hurt. On the other hand, if you hug someone, the act itself is own justification.
Funny thing… I never cared what others thought about me. And I am not annoyed at you at all.
My life was worth living when I was a believer, and it is worth living now.The change happened inside me, and the whole world got brighter! I still do the same things I did (except cheating; that’s wrong
Now, life is worth living!
I already knew these answers. I was curious if anyone will come out and say it explicitly. No one did.
Did you happen to read the other part of my post, which was directed to Fran? About the incredible misery your religion inflicts on those poor people who look at themselves as “despicable sinners”, who are full of self-loathing and shame just because they follow what is natural to their bodies? They live in constant fear of “hell”. They have no self-esteem. They are “spiritual” cripples. That is also part of the “picture”, be it big or small. Just think about it.
Nevertheless, I wish the best to you, and I hope to have more conversations with you. (And Fran, too). Cheers!
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frangiuliano115
Guest
You’re answer to my question of how the universe got here is as unsatisfactory to me as my replies are to you. Here’s why:You look at the “small” picture. There is always a fluctuation. Look at the big picture. No more plagues, no more locusts. People, even the really poor ones today have a higher standard of living than the royalties had a few centuries ago. The poor ones do not suffer from malnutrition, they suffer from obesity, due tot the consumption of unhealthy foods.
Come on, PA, you said you lived in Europe. You’re talking about the middle ages. You can’t be THAT old! And FYI, people in Italy tend to be thin. That’s because there’s not too much choice in clothing for the overweight!
I like to look at the forum of “Prayer Intentions”. I see pages and pages of supplicatory prayers, all asking for something. I wonder, how many of those prayers are “answered” in a positive manner.
Prayers will be answered how they’re answered. We nutty christians just accept whatever God sends our way. We’ve learned that it’s coming anyway, so better not to fight it. God gives us some kind of strength that I, personally, can’t explain. I know that sometimes I feel overburdened and then it goes away. It’s this joy thing as compared to happiness. I like happiness too. Love that new car smell. Feel happy. It only lasts a week or so. Joy, which comes from knowing Jesus, lasts forever.
To have an agreement is always uplifting.
Yes. And how great it would be if you and I could be brothers in Christ. We’d agree on ALMOST everything. Have you noticed that even amoungst ourselves we don’t agree on everything? You always bring your life experiences with you, I guess.
I look at you with admiration in my eyes for being honest about it. Very rare experience.
Hey. If you ever meet someone who can explain evil, please give him my home address. I’d like to speak to him personally!
By all means. The problem is that your question is incorrect. If I would ask you: “what is to the north from the North Pole”… you could answer: “incorrect question, the direction of ‘north’ cannot be defined at the North Pole”. The same is here: “the Universe is ALL there is”, the properties of “before” or “outside” cannot be defined FOR the universe.
In all the millennia before Einstein’s theory of relativity was developed, people has this “metaphysical concept”: they thought that there is an absolute space and an absolute time, and the universe was something like a balloon in an empty room. They thought that there was a “before” and an “after” with a point when the universe “popped” (or was created) into existence.
This metaphysical picture is “outdated”. There is no absolute time. Time and space are the properties of the space-time-matter-energy universe. The universe simply “IS”, it simply “EXISTS”. There is no vast realm of “nothingness”, in which the balloon of the universe is “drifting”. Now, if you so choose you might present a slightly different picture: the universe consists of two “parts”, the material one and the “immaterial” one. You might suggest that the “immaterial” one is primary and it created the material one… but there is no need for this assumption, and no explanation for the process itself.
- Science has changed it’s understanding of the universe. Right. But the word of God never changes. I’ve read books on why Genesis agrees with the physics we know today.
- Somehow this universe started. Any scientist will tell you that it had a start. That it did not always exist. What do you think the Hadron Collider was built for? In Switzerland. They’re trying to go back at the Big Bang or before to understand how all this got started. Interesting that the bible says “let there be light”. Could that be the Big Bang? i don’t know.
- Any scientist will tell you that something could not come from nothing. So why are we here? I think I already mentioned this.
As far as the "small picture that you bring up is concerned - please read Novus Fidem’s reply. It cannot be improved upon and is excellent.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
In our actions? Probably not much, except I don’t go to church and don’t worship.
This question could be directed to both parties.
I don’t see it as a security blanket. it IS my reality. I’m not dumb PA. I don’t accept because I NEED something to help me get through life. There are pills for that - different types and colors for different needs. No need for God. News Flash: Even christians could get depressed, have anxiety, have OCD and all other sorts of psychological problems. I’m happy if you feel liberated. I feel like the only real liberation comes from acknowledging The Holy Spirit in our lives and living for God. It liberates me from the effect of sin by following satan. Yeah. There I go again. I feel like youi DO have to choose. But first you have to believe in some kind of spiritual world. Remember when Paul said: We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities. What could he have meant? Was he crazy too?
Did you ever read Looking For Mr. Goodbar? Being free from that type of search is what is truly freeing. Or any other type of “drug” for that matter, or something to fill up what we’re missing. God made us. Our searchis for God. And until we find Him we will not really rest. Why do you come back here every now and then? I’ve only been here since July and have seen you a few times. Is it only because you like to aggravate us with your stubborn refusal? I think not.
On the contrary, if you look at the Moral Theology forum, I don’t understand how can you read those posts without feeling frustrating and depressed. People being ashamed and guilty of the most natural activities of life. We make choices, and sometimes they are the incorrect ones. We choose the “wrong” partner. Instead of taking a civilized exit and try again, you must either stay in a loveless, destructive relationship, or stay celibate. (Annulment is a lengthy and uncertain process.) Marriages are NOT made in heaven.
This is the other side of the picture that believers are unwilling to look at.
I AGREE! I’ve been on a few threads where I’ve been accused of not being a good catholic. Whatever that is. Jesus said only my Father in heaven is good. The level of legalism on these threads is appalling. I doubt Jesus went to that horrid cross so we could go to hell because we ate a few grapes 30 minutes before making communion. Yes. This was one of the threads. So it’s pretty darn silly. Maybe you’re trying to figure out the religion instead of trying to get to know Jesus? Did you think that being christian means that you’re going to be perfect and God will help you get the perfect partner? Maybe you should stop trying to find out what the church teaches and just read your bible and figure out what it is that Jesus wants from you?
I see you already answered N.F. re the small picture. Sorry. I’ve missed a bit.
Is there more?
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
P.A.Obviously I cannot know anything about you, except what you revealed. In my world you are/were a good person. Kind and helpful to others.
What is wrong with that? There is a true saying: “what goes around, comes around”. You showed a good example by being kind and helpful, and you “taught” others by example. You know: “if necessary, use words…” as Francis of Assisi allegedly said.
Nothing whatsoever. Good works need no scrutiny, need no explanation. Only “bad” or “seemingly bad” actions need to be scrutinized and the “why” behind them explored. If you kill someone, it does matter “why” you did it, self-defense or the desire to hurt. On the other hand, if you hug someone, the act itself is own justification.
Funny thing… I never cared what others thought about me. And I am not annoyed at you at all.
My life was worth living when I was a believer, and it is worth living now.
I already knew these answers. I was curious if anyone will come out and say it explicitly. No one did.
Did you happen to read the other part of my post, which was directed to Fran? About the incredible misery your religion inflicts on those poor people who look at themselves as “despicable sinners”, who are full of self-loathing and shame just because they follow what is natural to their bodies? They live in constant fear of “hell”. They have no self-esteem. They are “spiritual” cripples. That is also part of the “picture”, be it big or small. Just think about it.
Nevertheless, I wish the best to you, and I hope to have more conversations with you. (And Fran, too). Cheers!
We’re reaching the end of our discussion until the next question you can think of which no one will be able to answer!
The above is directed to Novus Fidem, just want to add a couple of thoughts:
Re doing good works so people could like you and you get good things back. In the “fleshly” world this is how it’s understood. in God’s world you do things because you do them for the love of God and you expect nothing back. That’s what loving God is. it’s the same as really loving anybody on earth. You do something for your partner because you love him/her. You do something for your child because you love him. Personally, for me, I wouldn’t say loving God is worship or obedience. I’d say that the worship and obedience are a RESULT of my love for Him. And the reason I love Him is for what He did for me - die. You have to understand the sacrificial system form the O.T. though. Youi must kow about it. If not, study up on it.
Also, regarding not being worried about what other people think of you: Both of these concepts have to do with the beatitudes. I did lessons on the beatitudes not two months ago. These would be humble and seeking for justice. I almost pulled out my notes but didn’t because you’re not at the point of understanding. You’ve dismissed everything christian. Read the first 3 chapters of Romans again and also 1 Corinthians again. Especially chapter 2. I hate to direct you to these as if you were not knowledgeable of christianity, but maybe you just need to start all over again?
Can I be honest? You rather upset me the first time I came across you. Your self-righteousness is apparent to a degree that I’m not sure you understand. This is a big turn off to someone who has understood the importance of having God in their life. You should study a bit on the first beatitude: Blessed are the poor in spirit. It teaches that the poor in spirit understand that they can do nothing for God, and that they depend on Him for everything. It’s a good study.
Anyway, I don’t know if anything will come out of all of these words, but it couldn’t have hurt!
So what does “I love God” mean? The same thing it means when you tell someone on earth you love them. That you feel they’re more important than you are, that they’re worth your time and your affection, that you would do for them without expecting anything back, that you would give up something of yourself for their benefit.
Love is not a feeling. It’s a commitment to the other - to be faithful and true no matter what.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Hi NovusFidem
The level of wisdom you possess at your age is truly remarkable!
I doubt a trip to Sao Paolo is in the offering; however, from what I’ve learned about you on this thread, I can say that if I were 30 years younger - I’d make a special trip!
Just kidding - I think my husband wouldn’t be too happy about that.
God bless you and be seeing you
Fran
The level of wisdom you possess at your age is truly remarkable!
I doubt a trip to Sao Paolo is in the offering; however, from what I’ve learned about you on this thread, I can say that if I were 30 years younger - I’d make a special trip!
Just kidding - I think my husband wouldn’t be too happy about that.
God bless you and be seeing you
Fran
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