A question about "love"

[frangiuliano115]

Oh. I forgot P.A.

This was in your post to Vico:

And, of course, if both heaven and hell are repugnant to me (this is a serious possibility), then he should offer a third alternative: “annihilation”. That is what a “loving” God would do.

Have you looked into the Noahide faith? I think they believe in annihilation. Am not sure. Please check.

It does kind of make me think of that parent/child analogy. The child grows up and can make it on his own. So the parent makes him disappear. Instead of keeping him close and having a loving relationship with him forever.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

We in faith, have come to know that we are “sinners” Those who do not have the Faith, the concept of sin is foreign to them. But there is a norm of morality that is natural to them, even though it not be perfect. If they have “good will” and sincerely strive to know the truth, and God, I personally have no doubt that God will make Himself known to them in a personal way, an encounter. But if one dictates to God the condition in which this revelation should be made, then I am confident, that he will not have this encounter. It is not proper for man to ask God to bow to his wishes, before he accepts God. This is a spirit of arrogance. It is known that a spirit of humility is required, as it should be in our proper relationship to God. This is basic, and fundamental. Those in the Faith know that God gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud. So one has to look within himself to discern if he is proud, or is humble and if he is sincere, and of good will.

A persons expectation of what kind of response God will give is not always the same as what God gives, since God is not constrained by mankind’s conceptions of Him.

Answer to both of you: It is not pride to ask you (or God) to speak in a language I understand. If a “message” comes in a format which I cannot decipher, it does not count as a message at all. This is an elementary requirement.

 

[Vico]

Answer to both of you: It is not pride to ask you (or God) to speak in a language I understand. If a “message” comes in a format which I cannot decipher, it does not count as a message at all. This is an elementary requirement.

Fortunately, one form is conscience.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Fortunately, one form is conscience.

Huh? My conscience was formed during my formative years. My parents and other relatives worked long and hard to help me to develop an ethical system. God never spoke to me, even when I was young AND a believer, as honest a believer as only a child can be.

The funny thing is that many times in my life many believers were shocked when I came out of the closet (so to speak). They said that my behavior was very close to the behavior expected from a good Christian, except of course that I did not go to church.

So, let me reiterate: “God does not speak to me in a language I understand”. And if he is as smart as you insinuate, then he could choose the proper language. It is a wise saying that one size does NOT fit all. A good teacher tailors the message to the individual student.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Let’s suppose you weren’t delusional, and you thought you were sincere (but had missed the second point in Charlemagne III’s post 54)

No I did not “miss” it, I disregarded it. I am simply sick and tired of seeing the same old nonsense over and over again, especially since I already answered it several time.

In addition to which, what do you think of timeframes?

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Novus Fidem can change the story Pallas Athene.

That’s what we christians like to do: Take the negative and turn it into a positive.

You mean twisting the reality to fit your preconceived ideas?

We love self-sacrifice too. Like when a child is thirsty in the middle of the night and the tired mother gets out of a warm, cozy bed to go get him a drink of water so he could stay nice and warm in his bed. This is all love is - simple. It’s a commitment to do for someone without expecting anything back.

Of course. But that is not a “sacrifice”.

Could I ask you what YOU think love is? You might have already answered. If so, just direct me to the post. I’m really interested.

I already did. Love is a positive emotion which MUST be expressed in positive actions.

Are you the old man asking for help? We’re trying Pallas Athene. Think you’ll ever make it across the street?

No, I just brought up the story to show how wrong it is play “Big Brother” or a “nanny state”. Why don’t you respect others, instead of intruding forcefully in their lives? Using the analogy: if the old man is comfortable on his side of the street, it is actually an INSULT to him to try and drag him over to the other side. On the other hand, if he actually asks for help, then it is highly admirable to help him.

 

[ynotzap]

Answer to both of you: It is not pride to ask you (or God) to speak in a language I understand. If a “message” comes in a format which I cannot decipher, it does not count as a message at all. This is an elementary requirement.

Then I would think that message did not come from God. Those of Faith know that God is Love, and desires the salvation of all men, it would be inconsistent of Him to give a message that one could not understand, when one asked in humility and good will Nor would a true Christian deliberately give you a message you did not understand, and he knew that you didn’t understand it, as a loving Christian he would do all he could to help you understand " If you were hungry and asked for bread, would He hand you a stone" Why would you think God would speak to you in a way you would not understand? What kind of a god is that Why give a message at all, if that was the case? What is your concept of God? Surely you would have one if you asked Him for a message. I am reminded when Jesus spoke some of the Pharisees did not understand because they were blinded from understanding, but He made His message clear to the Apostles, and He said. “He who has ears, let him hear and understand…” The Pharisees did not have the disposition to receive His message
He did refer to them as “hypocrites.” they were not sincere or humble. This is one reason they hated Him, because He publicly humiliated them.

 

[Vico]

Huh? My conscience was formed during my formative years. My parents and other relatives worked long and hard to help me to develop an ethical system. God never spoke to me, even when I was young AND a believer, as honest a believer as only a child can be.

The funny thing is that many times in my life many believers were shocked when I came out of the closet (so to speak). They said that my behavior was very close to the behavior expected from a good Christian, except of course that I did not go to church.

So, let me reiterate: “God does not speak to me in a language I understand”. And if he is as smart as you insinuate, then he could choose the proper language. It is a wise saying that one size does NOT fit all. A good teacher tailors the message to the individual student.

You do not expect that God* literally has a voice*, other than how you hear your own thoughts, do you? (Not speaking here of the Incarnation.)

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Then I would think that message did not come from God. Those of Faith know that God is Love, and desires the salvation of all men, it would be inconsistent of Him to give a message that one could not understand, when one asked in humility and good will Nor would a true Christian deliberately give you a message you did not understand, and he knew that you didn’t understand it, as a loving Christian he would do all he could to help you understand " If you were hungry and asked for bread, would He hand you a stone" Why would you think God would speak to you in a way you would not understand? What kind of a god is that Why give a message at all, if that was the case? What is your concept of God? Surely you would have one if you asked Him for a message. I am reminded when Jesus spoke some of the Pharisees did not understand because they were blinded from understanding, but He made His message clear to the Apostles, and He said. “He who has ears, let him hear and understand…” The Pharisees did not have the disposition to receive His message
He did refer to them as “hypocrites.” they were not sincere or humble. This is one reason they hated Him, because He publicly humiliated them.

I did not ever experience any communication which I could attribute to God. And for those who wish to close their ears, there is time honored solution… a good smack on the head would do the trick.

You do not expect that God* literally has a voice*, other than how you hear your own thoughts, do you? (Not speaking here of the Incarnation.)

Why not? It would be easy for an omnipotent being. Or he could use my unplugged old monitor, appear on the screen and invite me for a conversation.

 

[Vico]

I did not ever experience any communication which I could attribute to God. And for those who wish to close their ears, there is time honored solution… a good smack on the head would do the trick.

Why not? It would be easy for an omnipotent being. Or he could use my unplugged old monitor, appear on the screen and invite me for a conversation.

Goes back to what I first posted: A persons expectation of what kind of response God will give is not always the same as what God gives, since God is not constrained by mankind’s conceptions of Him.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Goes back to what I first posted: A persons expectation of what kind of response God will give is not always the same as what God gives, since God is not constrained by mankind’s conceptions of Him.

We took a full circle then. If God wishes to help me to get “saved”, he needs to use a language I can comprehend. If not, then…

 

[Vico]

We took a full circle then. If God wishes to help me to get “saved”, he needs to use a language I can comprehend. If not, then…

You can comprehend the voice of conscience.

 

[frangiuliano115]

You mean twisting the reality to fit your preconceived ideas?

Of course. But that is not a “sacrifice”.

I already did. Love is a positive emotion which MUST be expressed in positive actions.

No, I just brought up the story to show how wrong it is play “Big Brother” or a “nanny state”. Why don’t you respect others, instead of intruding forcefully in their lives? Using the analogy: if the old man is comfortable on his side of the street, it is actually an INSULT to him to try and drag him over to the other side. On the other hand, if he actually asks for help, then it is highly admirable to help him.

I do think the old man analogy is a good one. The O.M. has to WANT to cross the street, or he never will! I was trying to be honest in asking if you’ll ever make it across. Here’s why:

You really cannot be forced to cross. Jesus is knocking but the door has no handle on the exterior of the door. You’ve seen this in that famous painting of Jesus. So YOU have to open the door from the inside.

I’m hoping you read the biblical passages I posted, but I fear you didn’t.

The first one explains what Love is in reference to God.
The second one refers to your post no. 55 - looking for a sign.
The third explains why you’re not getting any of this.

Threads develop and go in different directions. Now you’re looking for God to speak to you in a language you can understand. We’re trying P.A. Your posts no. 63 and 70 seem sincere. Here’s the short answer; Jesus is the language God uses to speak to us.

God is great,God is almighty; He created everything; He’s a giant in intellect, goodness and morality. How could we grasp such a greatness? Can’t. So He sent His son, Jesus to try and explain it to us. He did the best He could. He died on a cross. What could be more clear than that? It shows how much God loves us, and because of this great sacrifice (a sacrificial system sacrifice) we now can be so thankful and love God back.

Your willingness to accept answers is non-existent. Atheists are like this. You never know if they’re really sincere or if they just want to debate. I meant it about Noahide. It might be a beginning.

You’ve gotten some really good answers here. Vico no. 5, utunumsint no. 10, Vic Taltrees no. 48 and 49, ynotzap no. 56, Novus Fidem, Tony Rey, Fhansen, they’re trying P.A.

So you’re asking what it means to love God.

Here is what it means: All these posters taking the time to try to explain it to you.

Love in action.

Fran
I hope you really read those passages.

 

[Aloysium]

Answer to both of you: It is not pride to ask you (or God) to speak in a language I understand. If a “message” comes in a format which I cannot decipher, it does not count as a message at all. This is an elementary requirement.

There is absolutely no point arguing about these matters.
Words barely allude to the awesome mystery of all this;
music and the visual arts do a better job imho.

I have to thank this poster for statements he made regarding obedience.
The word came at me from the screen.

I don’t do obedience well.

The question is, who is worthy of my will.
It is the only thing I have that is truly mine.
My life can be taken, but my will never - it defines me.
Sure, it can be driven underground if another attempts to break it.
Self-hate and a slave-attitude: submissive, slow and stupid, is the reward for surrender to an unworthy master.
Machiavelli is for those who are lacking in self-worth, trying to overcome their humiliation through pride.
The only worthy master is Love.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

You can comprehend the voice of conscience.

Certainly. But there is no reason to assume that it comes from God… especially since my conscience “whispers” things to me which are different from what is “supposed” to be the “message” from God. For example my conscience sees nothing wrong with having sex for sheer pleasure, without the possibility of procreation.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

I do think the old man analogy is a good one. The O.M. has to WANT to cross the street, or he never will! I was trying to be honest in asking if you’ll ever make it across.

If I would see that there IS another side, then I might think about it. But as far as I can see we live on the surface of a Mobius strip or inside a Klein-bottle. There is no other side.

Threads develop and go in different directions. Now you’re looking for God to speak to you in a language you can understand. We’re trying P.A. Your posts no. 63 and 70 seem sincere. Here’s the short answer; Jesus is the language God uses to speak to us.

I really appreciate your effort, but Jesus is just a mythological story.

Your willingness to accept answers is non-existent. Atheists are like this.

Now, THIS I do not appreciate at all.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

No I did not “miss” it, I disregarded it. I am simply sick and tired of seeing the same old nonsense over and over again, especially since I already answered it several time.

Absence of proof is not the same as proof of absence, incidentally.

I have no idea what you mean.

How quick were you expecting, earlier in life, answers? Most of us get them in stages, which is why we have only got a bit of one.

 

[frangiuliano115]

If I would see that there IS another side, then I might think about it. But as far as I can see we live on the surface of a Mobius strip or inside a Klein-bottle. There is no other side.

I really appreciate your effort, but Jesus is just a mythological story.

Now, THIS I do not appreciate at all.

This is all rather interesting.

You don’t see another side, but you’re asking people who not only see the other side, but think they’re on it, what it means to love a non-existent God.

Jesus is just a mythological story, so we must just be a bunch of dummies but you still ask questions of us.

Then you don’t appreciate something I said about atheists. I’m a pretty nice person, I probably just said that some atheists are not sincere in their questions and just want to debate.

And you seem to have proven my point - are you sincere? No. So why are we speaking to each other?

Answer me this Pallas Athene:

WHY ARE we speaking to each other??

Fran
P.S. How did the ingredients in the glass to that bottle ever get created - I mean ORIGINALLY?

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Fran, I don’t think it’s right to assume the illustration of the old man is meant that way. I just took it at face value!

Pallas, you wondered (rhetorically - and a good illustration) if God would place answers on an unplugged monitor or something like that and paradoxically you have a plugged-in one and He has intrigued you enough to look at this forum and find us motley crew here, such as we are on any particular day.

You spoke of life’s crevasses. Think of a bold explorer - Charles Blondin - and the feat of detailed planning (that must have taken him a long time) that got him across Niagara - how the rope was tied both ends, what his timing in crossing was going to be, what he was going to do about wind and rain, where he was going to put his feet as he went. Life is full of crevasses!

If spaghetti is something that gives you what you want quickly, will the child and spouse always do so if they have a bad day? A biggish child that has somehow decided to cause a lot of complications? The emotion will at any rate often follow the deed of love rather than precede it.

Knowledge in all fields is built up bit by bit. But if it’s on a personal matter, it is much slower (because we have to cope with its intensity).

You have had a fabulous, terrific, tremendous start in life! The rest of it awaits exploring, a day at a time. I address the same point to some of the responders!

 

[Vico]

Certainly. But there is no reason to assume that it comes from God… especially since my conscience “whispers” things to me which are different from what is “supposed” to be the “message” from God. For example my conscience sees nothing wrong with having sex for sheer pleasure, without the possibility of procreation.

Conscience is a judgment of reason. The exercise of the judgement requires interiority. God can be heard speaking in that judgement.