A question about "love"

[Pallas_Athene]

I don’t see any resistance to the idea of love as a positive notion in this thread.

It did not come up YET.

Also, how can you have love without self-sacrifice?

Again we have a discrepancy in the “meaning” of words. A self-sacrifice in MY vocabulary is to give up something of high importance, like throwing oneself on a grenade to save others. Of course this sacrifice is only praiseworthy if there is no other way to save those others. Otherwise it is sheer idiocy.

Making small compromises, giving in to others in unimportant matters is NOT a self-sacrifice. It is a basic principle of “give and take”, nothing more.

 

[Wesrock]

Making small compromises, giving in to others in unimportant matters is NOT a self-sacrifice. It is a basic principle of “give and take”, nothing more.

I hardly agree with that. Giving up time, money, work, agency… Those are all sacrifices of self, even small ones.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

To us, it is God not giving up on you - He wants you to succeed at reaching eternal life!

It is getting late here, so I will just select this small portion to reflect upon. I recall a nice story:
The 7 years old boy-scout comes home, and his father asks him: “what good deeds did you perform today?” The kid answers: “I and five friends helped this old fellow to cross a busy street”. The father says: “That is very nice, but why did you need the help of your five friends?”. Whereupon the kid: “Because the friggin’ old geezer did NOT WANT to cross the street”.

I hope you see the point. If God wishes to help me, all he needs to do is to manifest himself to me, give a guided tour of heaven and hell, enumerate the do’s and don’t’s to get to heaven (and avoid hell), and then let me have an INFORMED decision based upon the correct data.

And, of course, if both heaven and hell are repugnant to me (this is a serious possibility), then he should offer a third alternative: “annihilation”. That is what a “loving” God would do.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

I hardly agree with that. Giving up time, money, work, agency… Those are all sacrifices of self, even small ones.

Maybe in your eye. As I said: we interpret the words differently. This is just one example of the crevasse between us.

Consider. There is a verse in the bible, which says: “there is no greater love than giving up your life for someone else”. (not a verbatim quote, but I am too tired to look it up). In my eyes, that is the ultimate sacrifice for an ATHEIST. For a Christian it is no big deal. He believes that his “sacrifice” will be rewarded in the hereafter. So in my eyes he does the logical thing to give up something irrelevant and useless for something of the greatest importance. Where is the “sacrifice” in that?

 

[fhansen]

It’s a matter of the knowledge of God, of the Father Whom Jesus came to reveal. The more we know God, the more we love Him. And this knowledge and love have infinite capacity for growth. And the more we actually love Him, the greater our justice, which is why the greatest commandment is what it is.

It’s to desire Him, to hunger and thirst for Him, especially as we come to be jaded by the values of this world, and begin to covet all that He is: beauty and truth and goodness and kindness and righteousness: ineffable love Personified. And this is a process, beginning now as we cooperate with His transforming us into His image-a long process, a struggle, of becoming perfected.

 

[tonyrey]

It is getting late here, so I will just select this small portion to reflect upon. I recall a nice story:The 7 years old boy-scout comes home, and his father asks him: “what good deeds did you perform today?” The kid answers: “I and five friends helped this old fellow to cross a busy street”. The father says: “That is very nice, but why did you need the help of your five friends?”. Whereupon the kid: “Because the friggin’ old geezer did NOT WANT to cross the street”. I hope you see the point. If God wishes to help me, all he needs to do is to manifest himself to me, give a guided tour of heaven and hell, enumerate the do’s and don’t’s to get to heaven (and avoid hell), and then let me have an INFORMED decision based upon the correct data.

And, of course, if both heaven and hell are repugnant to me (this is a serious possibility), then he should offer a third alternative: “annihilation”. That is what a “loving” God would do.

There is a third - far more positive and creative - alternative you have overlooked…

 

[NovusFidem]

It is getting late here, so I will just select this small portion to reflect upon. I recall a nice story:
The 7 years old boy-scout comes home, and his father asks him: “what good deeds did you perform today?” The kid answers: “I and five friends helped this old fellow to cross a busy street”. The father says: “That is very nice, but why did you need the help of your five friends?”. Whereupon the kid: “Because the friggin’ old geezer did NOT WANT to cross the street”.

I hope you see the point. If God wishes to help me, all he needs to do is to manifest himself to me, give a guided tour of heaven and hell, enumerate the do’s and don’t’s to get to heaven (and avoid hell), and then let me have an INFORMED decision based upon the correct data.

And, of course, if both heaven and hell are repugnant to me (this is a serious possibility), then he should offer a third alternative: “annihilation”. That is what a “loving” God would do.

Having reflected upon the small text, I have come to the conclusion that you misunderstood the roles, intentions and positions of each character in the analogy:

The old man wasn’t trying to cross the street (true). He was in the middle of a very busy street and stubbornly decided to remain there, at risk for his own life and that of others. The children were very worried for his safety, so they asked, begged and eventually started to push the old man until he, grudgingly walking (and sometimes trying to walk back), finally reached the safety of the sidewalk.

Looking at where he was before, the old man realized how foolish he was to ever want to be there and was thankful for the help.

There, I fixed it for you

 

[Pallas_Athene]

It’s to desire Him, to hunger and thirst for Him, especially as we come to be jaded by the values of this world, and begin to covet all that He is: beauty and truth and goodness and kindness and righteousness: ineffable love Personified.

Beauty, truth, goodness, etc… are CONCEPTS. A “personified” concept is an oxymoron.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Having reflected upon the small text, I have come to the conclusion that you misunderstood the roles, intentions and positions of each character in the analogy:

There, I fixed it for you

You cannot willy-nilly change the example. The actual story is about the old man, who was happily wandering on his side of the street, minding his own business. Then come along these do-gooder ignorant kids, who want to impose (or force) their values upon him, against his wishes.

There is a nice old prayer about it: “Oh Lord, please save me from the people who want to save me from myself”.

On the other hand, I gave you the proper method how to handle the situation. Give all the necessary information to the “old man”, and allow him to make the decision whether to cross that street or not. And IF the old man ASKS for help, then go ahead and give it.

 

[NovusFidem]

Maybe in your eye. As I said: we interpret the words differently. This is just one example of the crevasse between us.

Consider. There is a verse in the bible, which says: “there is no greater love than giving up your life for someone else”. (not a verbatim quote, but I am too tired to look it up). In my eyes, that is the ultimate sacrifice for an ATHEIST. For a Christian it is no big deal. He believes that his “sacrifice” will be rewarded in the hereafter. So in my eyes he does the logical thing to give up something irrelevant and useless for something of the greatest importance. Where is the “sacrifice” in that?

You say as if we were not happy to be alive.

Our mere existence is a moment of Grace.

The pleasure we feel when we eat chocolate is a moment where God’s love shines on us: we can taste sweet things! To give up that, giving your only piece of chocolate to a younger sibling, is a small sacrifice. But this is love: I gave up something that I “loved” dearly in order to bring pleasure to someone I care for. In the end, my sibling is happy, I am happy he’s happy, and God is happy we are all happy!

We love our life so much, but soooo much, that giving it up is the greatest sacrifice we could ever make: we would be giving up the chance to exist in God’s creation, to enjoy His gifts, to bask in His love***, to attend Mass, to do and receive charity, to enjoy having people around, just so another person would have that chance.

And you dare say atheists, who sometimes assume a nihilist stance on life (that it has no intrinsic meaning and no value) are making a greater sacrifice? Pfffft!

*** because we are never sure where, exactly, we are going to end up in You keep forgetting that we, as much as we like to believe to being saintly most of the time, have no idea how, when and what will be our final destination.

Purgatory, although not as bad as Hell, is still not good either. Who wants to keep waiting for judgement while not being able to plead their case anymore?

 

[NovusFidem]

You cannot willy-nilly change the example. The actual story is about the old man, who was happily wandering on his side of the street, minding his own business. Then come along these do-gooder ignorant kids, who want to impose (or force) their values upon him, against his wishes.

There is a nice old prayer about it: “Oh Lord, please save me from the people who want to save me from myself”.

On the other hand, I gave you the proper method how to handle the situation. Give all the necessary information to the “old man”, and allow him to make the decision whether to cross that street or not. And IF the old man ASKS for help, then go ahead and give it.

Yeah, you are the old man “happily wandering on his side of the street”, while I’m the old man on the sidewalk by the street. All I see is that you currently are where I previously was: in the middle of a busy street happily minding your own business.

I’ve been there. I thought like you did. And now I recognize the dangers in your situation, while you obliviously struts around the highway.

Now, like the kids, I’m desperate to point you into moving to the sidewalk. It doesn’t even have to be this side of the sidewalk; I’ll be happy enough to see you safe and sound on the other side as well (say, Orthodox Catholicism? Judaism??)

In other words, all I see is a delirious old man who thinks he’s actually going to get anywhere before a car hits him.

Sorry for caring, by the way! (sorry, not really sorry )

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Yeah, you are the old man “happily wandering on his side of the street”, while I’m the old man on the sidewalk by the street. All I see is that you currently are where I previously was: in the middle of a busy street happily minding your own business.

Arbitrarily changing the scenario will not lead anywhere. My side of the street is all reality. There are no demons, angels, dragons, leprechauns to obstruct my view.

Now, like the kids, I’m desperate to point you into moving to the sidewalk. It doesn’t even have to be this side of the sidewalk; I’ll be happy enough to see you safe and sound on the other side as well (say, Orthodox Catholicism? Judaism??)

As I said before, there is one and only one way to achieve that. Give me the necessary evidence to prove that you are right and I am wrong.

Sorry for caring, by the way! (sorry, not really sorry )

Well, at least you are somewhat honest.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

You say as if we were not happy to be alive.

Most of the time, the positive aspects of my life far outweigh the negative ones… so I am happy to be alive - but I am lucky.

Our mere existence is a moment of Grace.

And when some psychopath affixes electrodes to you genitals and cranks up the voltage… then are you in the state of “DISgrace”? I would not want you or anyone else to experience the excruciating pain from such an experience… but just try to imagine it… existence is neither good nor bad on its own. Pleasant existence is good, painful existence is… not good.

And you dare say atheists, who sometimes assume a nihilist stance on life (that it has no intrinsic meaning and no value) are making a greater sacrifice? Pfffft!

There is no “intrinsic” value to life. We create and give value to it. For believers this life is only a vale of tears, to get rid of as soon as possible. For atheists this life is all we have, so to enhance it makes it valuable.

 

[davidv]

Most of the time, the positive aspects of my life far outweigh the negative ones… so I am happy to be alive - but I am lucky.

And when some psychopath affixes electrodes to you genitals and cranks up the voltage… then are you in the state of “DISgrace”? I would not want you or anyone else to experience the excruciating pain from such an experience… but just try to imagine it… existence is neither good nor bad on its own. Pleasant existence is good, painful existence is… not good.

There is no “intrinsic” value to life. We create and give value to it.

Unsupported assertion.

For believers this life is only a vale of tears, to get rid of as soon as possible. For atheists this life is all we have, so to enhance it makes it valuable.

Speak for yourself. Let believers speak for themselves.

 

[fhansen]

Beauty, truth, goodness, etc… are CONCEPTS. A “personified” concept is an oxymoron.

No, they’re realities. A person in God’s presence knows-experiences- beauty, truth, goodness, love immediately, intuitively; He radiates them as He’s their very source.

 

[collegeathlete]

St. Thomas Aquinas says in his Summa that charity is friendship with God. It is caused by an encounter with God who reaches out to us in Jesus.

There is an encyclical by Pope Benedict XVI that is about charity. Here you go: w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est.html

 

[collegeathlete]

When you (whoever you are) say that you love

your spouse
your child
your pet
a good dinner
a pleasant vacation
a good movie…

I understand what you mean by the word “love”.

However, when you say “I love God”, I have no idea what the word “love” means in that context. Enlighten me, please. I would like to understand.

St. Thomas Aquinas says in his Summa that charity is friendship with God. It is caused by an encounter with God who reaches out to us in Jesus.

There is an encyclical by Pope Benedict XVI that is about charity. Here you go: w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est.html

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Unsupported assertion.

Just like God’s existence. The ultimate unsupported assertion.

Speak for yourself. Let believers speak for themselves.

I spoke to believers. Not all of them explicitly subscribed to this notion, of course. There were threads on these forums, where the question was: “would you like to live longer in this earthly existence?” The answer was unequivocal and universal “NO”. All the answerers asserted that they would like to have this existence “over with”, and get into heaven as soon as possible.

No, they’re realities. A person in God’s presence knows-experiences- beauty, truth, goodness, love immediately, intuitively; He radiates them as He’s their very source.

How many people have been in God’s presence, and presented actual evidence for this encounter? Video recordings, perhaps?

 

[davidv]

Just like God’s existence. The ultimate unsupported assertion.

An obvious false claim. Claiming that thousands of years of testimony is lack of support is demonstration of gross lack of credibility.

I spoke to believers. Not all of them explicitly subscribed to this notion, of course. There were threads on these forums, where the question was: “would you like to live longer in this earthly existence?” The answer was unequivocal and universal “NO”. All the answerers asserted that they would like to have this existence “over with”, and get into heaven as soon as possible.

How many people have been in God’s presence, and presented actual evidence for this encounter? Video recordings, perhaps?

 

[fhansen]

Just like God’s existence. How many people have been in God’s presence, and presented actual evidence for this encounter? Video recordings, perhaps?

It’s up to us whether or not we’ll believe the testimony of others on this. God gives us the evidence we need as we seek Him.