A question about "love"

[Pallas_Athene]

It’s up to us whether or not we’ll believe the testimony of others on this. God gives us the evidence we need as we seek Him.

Second and third hand testimonials, especially by unknown people is useless. I (and many other atheists) asked for God to provide evidence of his existence. Nothing happened. Moreover some nincompoops said that God purposefully hides from us, because an actual evidence would “rob us” of the freedom to disbelieve. What nonsense. To have actual reliable evidence would give us freedom to make meaningful and informed decisions.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… Again we have a discrepancy in the “meaning” of words. A self-sacrifice in MY vocabulary is to give up something of high importance, like throwing oneself on a grenade to save others. Of course this sacrifice is only praiseworthy if there is no other way to save those others. Otherwise it is sheer idiocy.

Making small compromises, giving in to others in unimportant matters is NOT a self-sacrifice. It is a basic principle of “give and take”, nothing more.

Is there a dividing line between important and unimportant and is there any signficance in the figure 99.999 % ?

Maybe give and take is an exercise in training for slightly larger sacrifices (which you won’t allow to be called that). None of us know what might be asked of us next.

What about the spouse or child that doesn’t reciprocate - yet?

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… I hope you see the point. If God wishes to help me, all he needs to do is to manifest himself to me, give a guided tour of heaven and hell, enumerate the do’s and don’t’s to get to heaven (and avoid hell), and then let me have an INFORMED decision based upon the correct data.

And, of course, if both heaven and hell are repugnant to me (this is a serious possibility), then he should offer a third alternative: “annihilation”. That is what a “loving” God would do.

You don’t know that isn’t the case yet!

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Having reflected upon the small text, I have come to the conclusion that you misunderstood the roles, intentions and positions of each character in the analogy:

There, I fixed it for you

I don’t have any problem with the story of the old man. I wish no-one else had had either. For me, this kind of question should not be a matter of point-scoring.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Maybe in your eye. As I said: we interpret the words differently. This is just one example of the crevasse between us.

Consider. There is a verse in the bible, which says: “there is no greater love than giving up your life for someone else”. (not a verbatim quote, but I am too tired to look it up). In my eyes, that is the ultimate sacrifice for an ATHEIST. For a Christian it is no big deal. He believes that his “sacrifice” will be rewarded in the hereafter. So in my eyes he does the logical thing to give up something irrelevant and useless for something of the greatest importance. Where is the “sacrifice” in that?

I defy you to find 100 people for whom it is “no big deal”. But then you utterly despise everybody’s second-party testimony, except when it is of a fictional character.

You started by asking a good question. Why not stick with it? Exploring a crevasse is what asking a question on a forum is for!

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… Playing master-slave, and then switch roles? That “role-playing game” is only acceptable as a wonderful sexual escapade.

What is being talked about is of course different from your sordid trivialising.

… the obvious definition: “love is a positive emotion, which must be expressed in actions”?

It doesn’t matter in practice whether the emotion comes before or after. (When before, extra nice.) When eyes are full of tears one can’t see properly but that doesn’t mean vision isn’t important.

Rom 12:20 If your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink.

I Jn 4:20 Those who say “I love God” and hate their brothers or sisters are liars. Those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen cannot love God whom they have not seen.

Come down from your ivory tower and abandon sentimentality and sordid trivialising! You claim to make your mind up on information, therefore take torture rooms seriously.

I too largely enjoy life and am very lucky indeed. Any objection?!?!

 

[fhansen]

Second and third hand testimonials, especially by unknown people is useless. I (and many other atheists) asked for God to provide evidence of his existence. Nothing happened. Moreover some nincompoops said that God purposefully hides from us, because an actual evidence would “rob us” of the freedom to disbelieve. What nonsense. To have actual reliable evidence would give us freedom to make meaningful and informed decisions.

I don’t know why God does things the way He does-only that some people make a meaningful decision to seek Him earnestly at some point in their lives-and He responds. And the testimonials may well be useless to some -while others react to them as if they resonate with truth. Presumably tho, not all testimonials are truthful, human nature being what it is. In any case, once God’s revealed Himself in the manner I’m claiming, the game’s over; He cannot be unknown again. Each has to find that out for themselves-or not.

 

[Vico]

It is getting late here, so I will just select this small portion to reflect upon. I recall a nice story:The 7 years old boy-scout comes home, and his father asks him: “what good deeds did you perform today?” The kid answers: “I and five friends helped this old fellow to cross a busy street”. The father says: “That is very nice, but why did you need the help of your five friends?”. Whereupon the kid: “Because the friggin’ old geezer did NOT WANT to cross the street”. I hope you see the point. If God wishes to help me, all he needs to do is to manifest himself to me, give a guided tour of heaven and hell, enumerate the do’s and don’t’s to get to heaven (and avoid hell), and then let me have an INFORMED decision based upon the correct data.

And, of course, if both heaven and hell are repugnant to me (this is a serious possibility), then he should offer a third alternative: “annihilation”. That is what a “loving” God would do.

It is clear that per the Christian faith, one third of the angels were case into Hell. It is not unreasonable to speculate that one third of the humans will be there with them.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

I Jn 4:20 Those who say “I love God” and hate their brothers or sisters are liars. Those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen cannot love God whom they have not seen.

Makes sense to me. What about those who help and support their (virtual) brothers and sisters, and do not care one iota about God? According to Catholicism “good works” do not count when they are NOT done from loving God. As mentioned before, you cannot “earn” your way into heaven.

I too largely enjoy life and am very lucky indeed. Any objection?!?!

Objection? Heck, no! I am happy for you.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Makes sense to me. What about those who help and support their (virtual) brothers and sisters, and do not care one iota about God? According to Catholicism “good works” do not count when they are NOT done from loving God. As mentioned before, you cannot “earn” your way into heaven. … .

I think you’ve hit upon a fascinating paradox. In two-dimensional logic, the two propositions are opposite, i.e not necessarily meaning the same. When Jesus teaches in Scriptures about His Heavenly Father and about the like of us, being more complex, and in order to startle us (the would-be converted), He often for instance argues that these things are equivalent.

Everybody’s good works count for what they count for when they are good. To Christians, they are fruit both of what can be common human goodness and of the converted heart, filled with the Holy Spirit. God is always saying one isn’t assumed to be loving God just because one claims to - the fruits are looked for.

God wants to test Christians’ conversion of heart. Though their spaghetti quickly does for them what they want it to (quid pro quo), therefore it is easy to love, when their spouse or child is slow to reciprocate - and when the fellow church member is slow to reciprocate - is when God sees how converted a Christian’s heart is.

Why then is conversion of heart something God specifically asks Christians for? I think it is because they are people who need an extra round of exams in life to check them out!

 

[fhansen]

I like the way St John of the Cross put it, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”.

Not on our faith (which is probably implicit in love anyway), or on our works (where love* isn’t* necessarily implicit), but on our love. I tend to think that about sums it up.

 

[NovusFidem]

I like the way St John of the Cross put it, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”.

Not on our faith (which is probably implicit in love anyway), or on our works (where love* isn’t* necessarily implicit), but on our love. I tend to think that about sums it up.

I think it is important to know the full quote of St. John of the Cross:

“In the twilight of life, God will not judge us on our earthly possessions and human successes, but on how well we have loved.”

He wanted to say that earthly concerns wouldn’t be enough to ‘measure’ our ‘worth’; that is, it doesn’t matter how much money we do, or how popular we get, etc. He didn’t meant to say that faith or works wouldn’t be accounted - in fact, as you well said, Faith, Hope and Charity (which includes good works) were all implied by/implicit in his use of the word ‘love’.

 

[tonyrey]

There is no “intrinsic” value to life. We create and give value to it. For believers this life is only a vale of tears, to get rid of as soon as possible. For atheists this life is all we have, so to enhance it makes it valuable.

In other words you are deliberately deceiving yourselves to make the best of a bad job - which amounts to an exercise in futility - but sooner or later you must be oppressed and depressed by your harsh doctrine.

For believers this life is far more than a vale of tears because it is full of opportunities to develop in our capacity for love whereas atheists want get rid of it as soon as possible when it seems unbearable because they know their game of make-believe is coming to an end and they can no longer face the consequences of their negativity. Any sane person knows life cannot be put into a neat little box and dismissed as “a tale full of sound and fury signifying nothing”. If everything signified nothing the belief that everything signifies nothing would signify nothing… What a remarkable state of affairs! :whacky:

 

[fhansen]

I think it is important to know the full quote of St. John of the Cross:

“In the twilight of life, God will not judge us on our earthly possessions and human successes, but on how well we have loved.”

He wanted to say that earthly concerns wouldn’t be enough to ‘measure’ our ‘worth’; that is, it doesn’t matter how much money we do, or how popular we get, etc. He didn’t meant to say that faith or works wouldn’t be accounted - in fact, as you well said, Faith, Hope and Charity (which includes good works) were all implied by/implicit in his use of the word ‘love’.

I’m sure he didn’t mean to say that faith and works wouldn’t be accounted-it’s just that love comes first above all. Faith that hasn’t “graduated” to the point of love, is of no avail as Augustine would put it. And works that don’t* flow* from love are not indications or expressions of our* justice.*

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Second and third hand testimonials, especially by unknown people is useless. I (and many other atheists) asked for God to provide evidence of his existence. Nothing happened.

Possibly the reason nothing happened is that you and other atheists were not sincere about asking the question. Perhaps you are also no sincere about asking that other question: “What proof have I that God does not exist?”

None whatsoever.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Possibly the reason nothing happened is that you and other atheists were not sincere about asking the question.

But of course! How could I have missed it? I and all the atheists who asked for and never got an answer must be delusional and dishonest. Shame on me and all those idiotic atheists who dishonestly ask God to manifest himself so we can KNOW that he exists. We don’t really want to know, because if we knew then we would not be able to continue our “sinful” lifestyle. We don’t care about “truth ™” we just wish to continue our disgusting, filthy habits.

Thank you O wise one for opening my eyes… (Grabbing a bucketful of ash and pouring over the head).

 

[ynotzap]

But of course! How could I have missed it? I and all the atheists who asked for and never got an answer must be delusional and dishonest. Shame on me and all those idiotic atheists who dishonestly ask God to manifest himself so we can KNOW that he exists. We don’t really want to know, because if we knew then we would not be able to continue our “sinful” lifestyle. We don’t care about “truth ™” we just wish to continue our disgusting, filthy habits.

Thank you O wise one for opening my eyes… (Grabbing a bucketful of ash and pouring over the head).

We in faith, have come to know that we are “sinners” Those who do not have the Faith, the concept of sin is foreign to them. But there is a norm of morality that is natural to them, even though it not be perfect. If they have “good will” and sincerely strive to know the truth, and God, I personally have no doubt that God will make Himself known to them in a personal way, an encounter. But if one dictates to God the condition in which this revelation should be made, then I am confident, that he will not have this encounter. It is not proper for man to ask God to bow to his wishes, before he accepts God. This is a spirit of arrogance. It is known that a spirit of humility is required, as it should be in our proper relationship to God. This is basic, and fundamental. Those in the Faith know that God gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud. So one has to look within himself to discern if he is proud, or is humble and if he is sincere, and of good will.

 

[Vico]

But of course! How could I have missed it? I and all the atheists who asked for and never got an answer must be delusional and dishonest. Shame on me and all those idiotic atheists who dishonestly ask God to manifest himself so we can KNOW that he exists. We don’t really want to know, because if we knew then we would not be able to continue our “sinful” lifestyle. We don’t care about “truth ™” we just wish to continue our disgusting, filthy habits.

Thank you O wise one for opening my eyes… (Grabbing a bucketful of ash and pouring over the head).

A persons expectation of what kind of response God will give is not always the same as what God gives, since God is not constrained by mankind’s conceptions of Him.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Let’s suppose you weren’t delusional, and you thought you were sincere (but had missed the second point in Charlemagne III’s post 54), and you elicited the information in my posts 41, 42, 44, 49 and the rest of 45, then what?

In addition to which, what do you think of timeframes?

Just trying to catch up!

 

[frangiuliano115]

You cannot willy-nilly change the example. The actual story is about the old man, who was happily wandering on his side of the street, minding his own business. Then come along these do-gooder ignorant kids, who want to impose (or force) their values upon him, against his wishes.

There is a nice old prayer about it: “Oh Lord, please save me from the people who want to save me from myself”.

On the other hand, I gave you the proper method how to handle the situation. Give all the necessary information to the “old man”, and allow him to make the decision whether to cross that street or not. And IF the old man ASKS for help, then go ahead and give it.

Novus Fidem can change the story Pallas Athene.

That’s what we christians like to do: Take the negative and turn it into a positive.

We love self-sacrifice too. Like when a child is thirsty in the middle of the night and the tired mother gets out of a warm, cozy bed to go get him a drink of water so he could stay nice and warm in his bed. This is all love is - simple. It’s a commitment to do for someone without expecting anything back.

I was going to post 1 Corinthians 13 but I see it’s useless.

Mathew 16: 1-4 would fit in nicely too. But I think you also won’t understand that one.

Ah. And here’s why:

1 Corinthians 2:1-16 especially verse 14

But, alas, this is circular reasoning and I do believe we’ve been through this before so I know you will not accept.

Could I ask you what YOU think love is? You might have already answered. If so, just direct me to the post. I’m really interested.

I do agree with those two posters who know a different language. I’m afraid the English language trivializes love. We LOVE everything, our spouse, our dog. I wonder how this got started. We could have said, I like my dog, I really like my dog, I really like my dog really a lot-really.

Interesting question. Maybe we’ve lost, as a society, the knowledge of what real love is. Maybe, except for some nutty Christians, nobody really knows what it is anymore! Maybe that’s why you’re having trouble understanding what self-sacrifice is.

Are you the old man asking for help? We’re trying Pallas Athene. Think you’ll ever make it across the street?

Fran