A question about MARRIAGE and the Church

[Debora123]

If the first marriage can’t be annulled, she’s still married to the first man. And she has a problem. She’s sleeping with a man she’s not married to.

Lol yes, I know. That was the point of my original post. I’m glad you got it.

 

[ValPal]

If I was faced with such a situation, I wouldn’t convert because of the children. I believe that breaking up a family and harming children as a result is completely contrary to what God intends.

 

[iloveangels]

What do you mean?

Someone asked me if it was a hypothetical situation or if this was actually happening to someone I knew. I was just answering the question asked of me.

OK. I took you at your word about it being a hypothetical situation. Got it?

NOW, why are you asking if it’s only a hypothetical situation?? Who cares if this scenario is only a fairy tale?

 

[Debora123]

Please read Catechism section I provided.

The woman in your scenario was married civally at 18 and divorced 3 years later, was Baptized Protestant, but did not practice her faith ever because it was not taught her.

1. The might get it annulled due to lack of maturity, or lack of proper understanding of what marriage was.
2. Does her church of origin recognize civil marriage? If they do not…maybe that could be a reason, she isn’t validly married in the church she currently belongs to.

Ok, but it didn’t get annulled. Remember, this is a hypothetical situation.

The point is she is now “married” to another man whom she has 3 children with and an annulment was not granted to her. The first marriage was valid and cannot be annulled.

 

[ebonykawai]

Was the first husband a Catholic? Was he baptized at all?

I don’t think any of the marriages were Catholic. Remember, this is a hypothetical scenerio.

Deb, I think that what would happen is that she couldn’t be received by the Catholic church, since she is not a Catholic already and hasn’t even been through RCIA yet. She wouldn’t be able to make her first reconcilliation or first communion, because of her hypothetical marriage issue. Right? So I think it’s more of an issue of her wanting to be a Catholic, but because of her marriage issue (if she absolutely in this pretend world would NOT be granted anything to let her marry freely in the Church), she would have to make a difficult choice.

So my question still is: with all of this mess, why does this poor girl still want to be Catholic?

 

[ebonykawai]

I guess I wouldn’t either if I was in her shoes and was being told that I couldn’t be in communion with this Church unless I broke up my family. I guess I’d turn around and run the other way - “Never mind guys, I guess I’ll just stick to agnosticism!”

Exactly, LOL!!!

 

[Debora123]

OK. I took you at your word about it being a hypothetical situation. Got it?

NOW, why are you asking if it’s only a hypothetical situation?? Who cares if this scenario is only a fairy tale?

Just trying to get a better understanding regarding the letter of the law and grey areas. Even though this is hypothetical, it does happen.

 

[iloveangels]

Ok, but it didn’t get annulled. Remember, this is a hypothetical situation.

The point is she is now “married” to another man whom she has 3 children with and an annulment was not granted to her. The first marriage was valid and cannot be annulled.

You’re saying that she tried for an annulment of her first marriage and for some reason it wasn’t granted, correct?

Then she can’t live with her second husband if she wants to avoid living in sin. And by extension she has a problem becoming a Catholic in that condition. She’s screwed up her life and done a royally good job of it. Is that what you wanted to hear??

My guess is that she won’t become Catholic, after all. These things do happen.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

She can still attend Mass all she likes. There might be resolution some how, and then she can join the Church. If she isn’t Catholic, then she is not bound by Catholic law.

 

[Debora123]

If I was faced with such a situation, I wouldn’t convert because of the children. I believe that breaking up a family and harming children as a result is completely contrary to what God intends.

EXACTLY!!!

Now we’re getting somewhere.

So WHY would the Church require her to do this if it’s not what God intends? Could the letter of the law actually ever have some grey areas?

 

[iloveangels]

She can still attend Mass all she likes. There might be resolution some how, and then she can join the Church.

This is true. She still could attend mass. This happens also. Some people are in exactly this situation. It’s one way to get redeemed if you’ve bollixed up your life beyond all moral recognition like this.

 

[iloveangels]

EXACTLY!!!

Now we’re getting somewhere.

So WHY would the Church require her to do this if it’s not what God intends? Could the letter of the law actually ever have some grey areas?

WHY would she go out and mess up her life totally like this??? That’s really what’s at issue here.

God doesn’t intend for people to go out and play musical bedrooms like this and then come whining when they’re tired of it. The Church has done nothing wrong here, remember. She’s the one who did this to herself.

She’s the penitent, and she’s the one who has to seek some sort of accommodation for herself, such as attending mass and not receiving if she wants to make amends.

 

[ebonykawai]

There are ALL flavors of problems out there in the real world. Some of them are in my own family. My SIL was divorced 2X, she was able to get one annullment, but the second marriage was to a Catholic, so that was that. She divorced the 2nd hubby, and got married a third time to a cafeteria Catholic (they ‘married’ in City Hall). And as far as I know, they still attend Catholic Church, and probably both still receive communion.

All kinds of mess out there. All kinds of mess in our own families. All we can do is beg for mercy.

 

[ebonykawai]

EXACTLY!!!

Now we’re getting somewhere.

So WHY would the Church require her to do this if it’s not what God intends? Could the letter of the law actually ever have some grey areas?

DARN AWESOME QUESTION.

I have no clue.

 

[iloveangels]

There are ALL flavors of problems out there in the real world. Some of them are in my own family. My SIL was divorced 2X, she was able to get one annullment, but the second marriage was to a Catholic, so that was that. She divorced the 2nd hubby, and got married a third time to a cafeteria Catholic (they ‘married’ in City Hall). And as far as I know, they still attend Catholic Church, and probably both still receive communion.

All kinds of mess out there. All kinds of mess in our own families. All we can do is beg for mercy.

Correct. There are all kinds of things out there. That doesn’t mean they’re right. At the end of each of our lives, we’ll explain it all to God. Until then, the Church tries to help us along as much as we’ll let it. Some people insist just on screwing it all up.

Ebonykawai,
Ew. Sacrilege is scary. And years of it.

 

[Castello]

Ok, then let’s say she was baptized in some protestant church when she was a baby though she was never brought up religious.

Again, I’m trying to get to the point here. The point is the first marriage was not and cannot be dissolved or annulled, and she is now happily married to a man with 3 children and wants to join the Church.

This situation does happen. The couple must live as brother and sister.

It is not common in the US, because most Americans are woefully prepared for marriage and the defect of consent or immaturity is found by the Tribunal.

I know someone that went through this situation. They have now been married and living as brother and sister for 7 years. Her faith is important to her and her agnostic husband loves her so much that he wants her to be happy and respects this. They have been in this brother and sister relationship since their early 30’s and they are very happy. She has petetioned 3 times and been denied each time.

 

[Castello]

EXACTLY!!!

Now we’re getting somewhere.

So WHY would the Church require her to do this if it’s not what God intends? Could the letter of the law actually ever have some grey areas?

Because God intends for us to follow Him even when it is really really really REALLY hard to do.

It is not grey, the doctrines of the Church are crystal clear.

 

[iloveangels]

DARN AWESOME QUESTION.

I have no clue.

Because this isn’t really about head count.

 

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by Debora123

Lol so then you’re saying that it WOULD be what God intends! I guess this is where we disagree.

 

[iloveangels]

Because God intends for us to follow Him even when it is really really really REALLY hard to do.

It is not grey, the doctrines of the Church are crystal clear.

Correct, the church has laws about all these things, and just because laypeople don’t often know them, doesn’t mean they don’t exist or that they don’t apply. This is what Canon law is about, and why there are Canon lawyers.