A Question about Mary & Intercession

[garysibio]

“All who escape eternal damnation do so through Mary’s powerful intercession…”
– St. Bonaventure

I saw this quote posted on Twitter and it raised a question I’d like a little insight on:

What about the people who lived before Mary? If the only way to escape eternal damnation is through Mary’s intercession, they must be lost. Mary was human. She did not exist prior to her conception. Therefore she could not have interceded for anyone until she was taken up into Heaven. (She could have interceded for some during her life but it’s hard to believe that she was able to intercede for all.)

Does Mary intercede for everyone? If not, who decides who she intercedes for? If she does intercede for everyone, how can we say that all her prayers are answered? (I’m not sure that the belief that all her prayers are answered is a doctrine but I’ve heard people say that.) The Bible is clear. God wishes everyone to be saved (2 Pet 3:9) so Mary’s prayer for a person to escape Hell is a prayer according to God’s will. However the majority of people are on their way to Hell (Matt 7:13-14).

 

[Trishie]

I can understand your confusion, but
On a general not, we do need to keep in mind when dealing with saints, is that their words are not infallible. They can be a guide, but they are not infallible.

Regarding salvation, the teachings of the Church, you read the Catechism and find if you can find a proof that souls are only saved through Mary’s intercession. There isn’t one.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

 

[garysibio]

I can understand your confusion, but
On a general not, we do need to keep in mind when dealing with saints, is that their words are not infallible. They can be a guide, but they are not infallible.

Regarding salvation, the teachings of the Church, you read the Catechism and find if you can find a proof that souls are only saved through Mary’s intercession. There isn’t one.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

I figured he was using hyperbole but I’ve come across lots of Catholics who literally believe what he said.

 

[Trishie]

On a phonecall, but an encyclical that may throw light, haven’t checked it yet

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

 

[garysibio]

On a phonecall, but an encyclical that may throw light, haven’t checked it yet

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

Thanks for the link

 

[pablope]

"

All who escape eternal damnation do so through Mary’s powerful intercession…"
– St. Bonaventure

 

[garysibio]

"

When reading things like this, you should take into account the context and times it was written or stated. You should try to get a hold of the whole passage, not just isolated passages like this.

Forms a catholic, it may mean Mary’s love and desire and prayer to try to save many souls.

St. B may have meant that Mary prays and intercedes for alot of souls that they do not end up in hell…what he meant by powerful intercession, he is referring to Mary’s prayers and love and desire to save all souls.

My grandma always told us, when she was alive…always told us to go to Mary when we needed help, were sick or what not…because she was miraculous. She did not mean Mary caused miracles herself…but she meant through Mary’s intercession, we have heavenly help.

We do not know, that is beyond our knowledge. She intercedes when we ask her, but keep in mind…any request for intercession is as per God’s will, not hers, although, she is a powerful intercessesor.

She can intercede for anybody…but it is still in accordance with God’s will.

Only God can decide, and know which prayer to grant, not Mary.



And how do you know this? Only God knows.

Good comments

 

[AmbroseSJ]

garysibio:

Does Mary intercede for everyone? If not, who decides who she intercedes for? If she does intercede for everyone, how can we say that all her prayers are answered? (I’m not sure that the belief that all her prayers are answered is a doctrine but I’ve heard people say that.)

Yes, I believe Mary does intercede for everyone. Especially sinners. Some saints have said that it was Mary’s prayers for the good thief on the cross next to Jesus that helped him to have Faith. It might also be observed that the other thief was unmoved. So free will always trumps freely given grace from God.

As for St. Bonaventure, he was addressing a Christian congregation, so his words were in that context. In any event, I personally do not believe this quote, even as it stands is hyperbole, but factual. That those who escape eternal damnation are great sinners, the Virgin Mary’s principal constituency.

 

[jschutzm]

“All who escape eternal damnation do so through Mary’s powerful intercession…”
– St. Bonaventure

I saw this quote posted on Twitter and it raised a question I’d like a little insight on:

What about the people who lived before Mary? If the only way to escape eternal damnation is through Mary’s intercession, they must be lost. Mary was human. She did not exist prior to her conception. Therefore she could not have interceded for anyone until she was taken up into Heaven. (She could have interceded for some during her life but it’s hard to believe that she was able to intercede for all.).

This might help to look at it this way…

We as humans think very linearly about stuff. A then B 100AD before 200AD The bottom layer of soil must be deposited before the top layer. – RIGHT?

But if God is “all powerful” then he can not be restrained by time or a linear existence at ALL.

Could those already in Heaven also operate in a less linear fashion? Could God have worked it into his plan already that Mary would pray for all souls and that some would be saved by her intercession… and determined this BEFORE she even existed?

Similar to how Catholics believe that Mary was saved by Jesus’s sacrifice proactively ahead of time, by saying “Yes” to being the mother of God.

We can’t rule this out. However, it is also NOT doctrine and therefore NOT required that Catholics believe it, either.

---

Now the SECOND way to look at this fallible, non-binding, opinion, is THIS:

Through her intercession - as in she stepped in for the rest of humanity when she said “Yes” to God and became the mother of Jesus. At that POINT she became an intercessor and through this cooperation, in a manner of speaking… all souls, past and present now had a way to salvation, through the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

That’s the round about way I choose to look at it. I don’t know how St. Bonaventure meant it, but that’s how I choose to take it.

OR

You could just say he was exaggerating to make a point.

 

[garysibio]

I hadn’t considered this when I asked my question that is the basis of this thread but, as I was pondering the responses I got, I began to wonder if St. Bonaventure could engage in such hyperbole, what about the Church Fathers. For example, one of the facts we often use to support our view of the Eucharist is the statement made by St. Ignatius of Antioch about how belief regarding the Eucharist was one way of determining whether someone was a heretic or not. What if Ignatius was also engaging in hyperbole? (I’m not saying he was, only that the possibility exists.)

 

[jschutzm]

I hadn’t considered this when I asked my question that is the basis of this thread but, as I was pondering the responses I got, I began to wonder if St. Bonaventure could engage in such hyperbole, what about the Church Fathers. For example, one of the facts we often use to support our view of the Eucharist is the statement made by St. Ignatius of Antioch about how belief regarding the Eucharist was one way of determining whether someone was a heretic or not. What if Ignatius was also engaging in hyperbole? (I’m not saying he was, only that the possibility exists.)

A bit off topic… but there is a difference between things which are supported by doctrine and which are central to the faith and things which are personally held beliefs by a Saint or a laymen.

I can say that I think the Pastor of my parish is the best and everyone should listen to him.
This is my personal belief.

We should be able to differentiate such a statement from the core beliefs shared by ALL Catholics, or those concerning doctrine, or those supported by Scripture, or throughout history, etc.

St. Ignatius was not making that up for the first time. St. Ignatius was speaking as a Bishop… to his flock, and about doctrine, which is supported by Scripture and which all Catholics throughout time have believed.

So different context, different thing all together.

Your thoughts only underscore the need to really understand what is being communicated, by whom, when, where, context, reason it’s being said, intention.
Google the differences between “literal sense” and “literalistic sense”

To be “literal” means to look at all the meanings, figures of speech, time, place, intention, etc. to get the context, BEFORE rendering a final interpretation.

To be a “literalist” means to not take any of those into consideration and render your interpretation ONLY on what is said/written, nothing else.

Catholics are encouraged to look at many things before they render an interpretation and not just go off of face value and out of context.

 

[DebChris]

One of the Deepening the Faith Sessions in my parish dealt with the power of Mary’s intercession. Very often, we as Catholics point to the Wedding at Cana as an example of how Jesus was obedient to Mary’s request. My parish priest also pointed to this passage. Those concerned that the wine for the wedding was running low did not seek the help of Jesus. They went to Mary first. It is she who said, “Do whatever He tells you.”

We can definitely pray directly to Christ, and He will act on our behalf. St. Louis de Montford describes our prayers as dandelions that Mary places in a vase and then carries to our Lord on a silver platter.

 

[garysibio]

One of the Deepening the Faith Sessions in my parish dealt with the power of Mary’s intercession. Very often, we as Catholics point to the Wedding at Cana as an example of how Jesus was obedient to Mary’s request. My parish priest also pointed to this passage. Those concerned that the wine for the wedding was running low did not seek the help of Jesus. They went to Mary first. It is she who said, “Do whatever He tells you.”

We can definitely pray directly to Christ, and He will act on our behalf. St. Louis de Montford describes our prayers as dandelions that Mary places in a vase and then carries to our Lord on a silver platter.

I don’t have a problem with Mary being able to intercede for us. My issue is when someone says that we must go through Mary or, as the quote from St. Bonaventure said, no one gets saved unless Mary intercedes for them.

It should be noted that John 2 does not say that anyone approached Mary and asked her to get Jesus to act. Also, the account of the wedding at Cana is the only time the Bible records Mary getting Jesus to act. There are, however, many cases where people approached Jesus directly and asked Him for something.

 

[garysibio]

A bit off topic… but there is a difference between things which are supported by doctrine and which are central to the faith and things which are personally held beliefs by a Saint or a laymen.

I’d like to address this point. If Ignatius was using hyperbole and we take him literally to support a doctrine, then we have a problem. Essentially you are taking him literally to support a doctrine which you then claim is a criteria for taking him literally. Circular reasoning.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I don’t have a problem with Mary being able to intercede for us. My issue is when someone says that we must go through Mary or, as the quote from St. Bonaventure said, no one gets saved unless Mary intercedes for them.

You are misunderstanding St. Bonaventure (a Doctor of the Church and Saint.) You have twisted the meaning of his words.

He said that “all who escape eternal damnation,” not “everyone who is saved.” It also has nothing to do with Salvation, which comes from Jesus Christ alone. You are also forgetting that those that did escape eternal damnation, repented. Nobody escapes eternal damnation against their will. But what St. Bonaventure is saying is that those who escaped damnation, did so, because of the intercessory prayers of the Virgin Mary, which may have bought that person additional time to repent, and the grace required to do so. Is that so hard to believe?

 

[garysibio]

You are misunderstanding St. Bonaventure (a Doctor of the Church and Saint.) You have twisted the meaning of his words.

He said that “all who escape eternal damnation,” not “everyone who is saved.” It also has nothing to do with Salvation, which comes from Jesus Christ alone. You are also forgetting that those that did escape eternal damnation, repented. Nobody escapes eternal damnation against their will. But what St. Bonaventure is saying is that those who escaped damnation, did so, because of the intercessory prayers of the Virgin Mary, which may have bought that person additional time to repent, and the grace required to do so. Is that so hard to believe?

Huh???

Salvation means escaping eternal damnation.