A question about Purgatory.

[childhoodtimes]

if the man who is in the side of jesus when they are in the cross are a sinner, why jesus brought the thief on heaven instantly without cleansing in the purgatory? because Jesus said “right now I will put you in paradise” the underlined phrase “right now” only means an immediate deliverance to the kingdom of God. Does it mean that Jesus do not consider purgatory to cleanse the sin of the thief?

thankssss for your attention!!:thumbsup:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

if the man who is in the side of jesus when they are in the cross are a sinner, why jesus brought the thief on heaven instantly without cleansing in the purgatory? because Jesus said “right now I will put you in paradise” the underlined phrase “right now” only means an immediate deliverance to the kingdom of God. Does it mean that Jesus do not consider purgatory to cleanse the sin of the thief?

thankssss for your attention!!:thumbsup:

Good question.

I’ve always attributed it to the time of the thief’s conversion/confession of faith. That being the thief converted to Christ at the time of his death, which cleansed his sins right before death.

 

[childhoodtimes]

Good question.

I’ve always attributed it to the time of the thief’s conversion/confession of faith. That being the thief converted to Christ at the time of his death, which cleansed his sins right before death.

Thanks to your answer prodigal son 1

but let us consider the doctrine of purgatory, it says that you cannot enter in the kingdom of God when a soul have even a little bit of amount of sin that is why the church tells about Pugatory, and the purpose of this is to cleanse. How about those things that has been stolen by the thief who pays for these things? Because in order to enter in heaven we must need to be clean without any pennies here on earth. Although Jesus forgives him and he accepts Jesus, his damages to his soul are not been completely vanished.

 

[Tietjen]

if the man who is in the side of jesus when they are in the cross are a sinner, why jesus brought the thief on heaven instantly without cleansing in the purgatory? because Jesus said “right now I will put you in paradise” the underlined phrase “right now” only means an immediate deliverance to the kingdom of God. Does it mean that Jesus do not consider purgatory to cleanse the sin of the thief?

thankssss for your attention!!:thumbsup:

As Catholics, we do not limit God (Christ in this case). If Jesus Christ says that “today” you will be with me in Heaven, then that man was in Heaven that day. There are several things to consider here however. First, when a man dies, does time move at the same rate of speed as it does for the living? I seem to remember that somewhere in the Bible it says something to the effect that a day to God is a 1000 years to men. Forgive me for not having the verse handy and if my numbers are wrong, but you get the idea. Secondly, are we sure that our stay in Purgatory will be measured by a sentence of time? What I mean is, perhaps God doesn’t sentence people to 523 years 17 days 4 hours 32 minutes and 58 seconds. Perhaps our stay in Purgatory is measured by intensity rather than linear measurements.

 

[Tietjen]

Thanks to your answer prodigal son 1

but let us consider the doctrine of purgatory, it says that you cannot enter in the kingdom of God when a soul have even a little bit of amount of sin that is why the church tells about Pugatory, and the purpose of this is to cleanse. How about those things that has been stolen by the thief who pays for these things? Because in order to enter in heaven we must need to be clean without any pennies here on earth. Although Jesus forgives him and he accepts Jesus, his damages to his soul are not been completely vanished.

If Christ says that they are they are. Christ said that the man would be in Heaven that day. He was. In addition, if a man is 50 years old and throughout his life he has refused to become a Christian. Then, on his deathbed, he decides to be baptized as is, he too will go immediately to Heaven as not only have his sins been forgiven, but the temporal punishment associated with those sins has been satisfied. If the sacrament of Baptism is able to accomplish this, surely the living, breathing Son of God can do the same.

 

[srferdave]

As Catholics, we do not limit God (Christ in this case). If Jesus Christ says that “today” you will be with me in Heaven, then that man was in Heaven that day. There are several things to consider here however. First, when a man dies, does time move at the same rate of speed as it does for the living? I seem to remember that somewhere in the Bible it says something to the effect that a day to God is a 1000 years to men. Forgive me for not having the verse handy and if my numbers are wrong, but you get the idea. Secondly, are we sure that our stay in Purgatory will be measured by a sentence of time? What I mean is, perhaps God doesn’t sentence people to 523 years 17 days 4 hours 32 minutes and 58 seconds. Perhaps our stay in Purgatory is measured by intensity rather than linear measurements.

In addition to this… We are told that some of our purging can be done here on earth. Since that man suffered a horrible death on the cross, maybe that was part or all of his purgatory punishment.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Thanks to your answer prodigal son 1

but let us consider the doctrine of purgatory, it says that you cannot enter in the kingdom of God when a soul have even a little bit of amount of sin that is why the church tells about Pugatory, and the purpose of this is to cleanse. How about those things that has been stolen by the thief who pays for these things? Because in order to enter in heaven we must need to be clean without any pennies here on earth. Although Jesus forgives him and he accepts Jesus, his damages to his soul are not been completely vanished.

Wouldn’t the thief’s sins have been forgiven at the point of his conversion? He confessed, before Christ, that he deserved the death, because of his sins…

 

[childhoodtimes]

In addition to this… We are told that some of our purging can be done here on earth. Since that man suffered a horrible death on the cross, maybe that was part or all of his purgatory punishment.

okay! if that is possible, can we invent our own suffering? like for example; I have a friend who dont want to forgive for what i’ve done to her but still she don’t wanted to forgive me . And i confessed it to a priest, and I tried not to eat or watch T.V. for 3 days. do you think i can enter to heaven even without experiencing purgatory is it enough?

thanks

 

[scottywolf777]

okay! if that is possible, can we invent our own suffering? like for example; I have a friend who dont want to forgive for what i’ve done to her but still she don’t wanted to forgive me . And i confessed it to a priest, and I tried not to eat or watch T.V. for 3 days. do you think i can enter to heaven even without experiencing purgatory is it enough?

thanks

Ok what we’re talking about here that gets one time in purgatory isn’t forgiveness but, something the church calls temporal punishment due to sin. ie a child breaks a valuable vase and tells his mom he’s sorry. The mother forgives the child but,there’s still the issue of the vase. What if the mother intended to sell the vase to buy bread for the family because of the child’s action she can’t do this. Sin has consequences that have to be taken care of either through acts of reparation like not watching Tv in some people’s cases pain and suffering can atone for their consequences.Purgatory is the place where the stuff we haven’t taken care of in this world by prayer,good works and penances. There’s a great line in Thornton Wilder’s play “Our Town” where the narator talking about the dead after a funeral scene for one of the characters says,'The dying are waiting. What are they waiting for? For the eternal part of them to come out clear." In otherwords purgatory gets rid of our earthly residue so that we can enter heaven and meet God in his total glory.
RE: your example might actually increase the purgatory. For one thing you don’t have a firm purpose of amendment in your confession and there is that little thing in the Lord’s prayer about “forgive us our trespasses(sins) as we forgive those who trespass against us” God would want you to forgive the person as best as you can and even try to love them. The people of Israel tried to buy God off and placate him with sacrifices after sacrifices and it didn’t work. On the plus side in the new covenant in Christ’s saving blood we recieve grace to help pay the cost of the vase and the church will even help us with indulgences but that’s a topic for antoher post.
I hope this hasn’t gotten too complicated and theological for you.Keep seeking the Lord for He’s always seeking you>

 

[scottywolf777]

incidentally I misread your example. What i said above would still be true if you were trying to get out of the work of forgiving another who harmed you which is what i thought you meant.
If the person isn’t willing to forgive you as long as you’ve done you best at making ammends, and they don’t forgive then it becomes their problem not yours. You might be able to lessen their purgatory by not watching TV as a penance done for them. i have seen examples of penances working on peoplethat they’re prayed for. Years ago I used to work “Search” retreats for young people and every so often you’d get folks who would resist God’s grace and love and there was an older hispanic lady who get us all on the prayer team doing a “rosario en cruz” praying the rosary on your knees with arms outstretched. Try it sometime. It’s painful. By the time we were finished one of the priests would inform us that the person disappeared and was in the chapel or bathroom in tears because the Lord touched them.

 

[Shin]

if the man who is in the side of jesus when they are in the cross are a sinner, why jesus brought the thief on heaven instantly without cleansing in the purgatory? because Jesus said “right now I will put you in paradise” the underlined phrase “right now” only means an immediate deliverance to the kingdom of God. Does it mean that Jesus do not consider purgatory to cleanse the sin of the thief?

thankssss for your attention!!:thumbsup:

I’m more familiar with the translation ‘this day’ rather than ‘right now’… However, purgatory is for the expiation of Justice for those who have not done proper penance in this life.

Crucifixion is certainly proper penance, and the thief accepted it, and so did a proper penance for his sins in this life. He is in fact, as the good thief, one of the best examples for purgatory and its necessity by this fact and his statements about justice.

 

[w_stewart]

if the man who is in the side of jesus when they are in the cross are a sinner, why jesus brought the thief on heaven instantly without cleansing in the purgatory? because Jesus said “right now I will put you in paradise” the underlined phrase “right now” only means an immediate deliverance to the kingdom of God. Does it mean that Jesus do not consider purgatory to cleanse the sin of the thief?

thankssss for your attention!!:thumbsup:

The suffering of the thief on the cross was penance already.

 

[nablaise]

Actually the thief offered up his suffering on the cross “I deserve this because I have sinned…”.

And also Jesus did not say , ‘right now’, he said, ‘this evening’ or ‘this day’ whatever the interpretation. But in any case, purgatory is not a ‘time’ measure like our regular ‘time’.

God bless

 

[mbgumby28]

Remember this too. Jesus promised that the thief would be in heaven. When you go to purgatory, you are also promised a spot in heaven, even though you have to go through some cleansing. I don’t think Jesus said specifically how the thief would get to heaven, just that he would be with him in heaven.

 

[CWBetts]

The thief was forgiven n the cross. He had a clean slate. For Purgatory to be warranted, he would have to havoe unforgiven venial sin, correct? All his sins were forgiven. No unfoegiven sin means no Purgatory (Correct me if I am wrong!)

 

[Cachonga]

Consider this - if I got a ticket for speeding, there’s a fine to be paid. I go to court, admit the offense, and the judge declares me Not Guilty. If I’m declared Not Guilty, how much of a fine do I have to pay? In the same way, when God forgives our sins, Jesus, in effect, declares us “Not guilty”. So why does the Catholic Church consign people to Purgatory when the Judge of all the Earth has declared them “Not Guilty”? (1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.” Douay Rheims.)

 

[Atreides]

Consider this - if I got a ticket for speeding, there’s a fine to be paid. I go to court, admit the offense, and the judge declares me Not Guilty. If I’m declared Not Guilty, how much of a fine do I have to pay? In the same way, when God forgives our sins, Jesus, in effect, declares us “Not guilty”. So why does the Catholic Church consign people to Purgatory when the Judge of all the Earth has declared them “Not Guilty”? (1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.” Douay Rheims.)

First of all, courtroom analogies are just that - analogies. They are not the be-all, end-all explanations of sin and the atonement. Before using an analogy to justify an argument, consider whether you’re pushing the analogy too far (or even whether the analogy is appropriate). While many Protestant (especially Reformed) understandings of the atonement lean heavily on courtroom language, older models are not quite as juridical in tone (Before using a courtroom analogy, consider how relative courtrooms are from culture to culture, then you might see why that’s the case). Thus, the Catholic Church’s idea of how the atonement is applied to one’s life invovles neither the idea of all sin as a singular offense nor forgiveness of all sin, past, present and future, at one point in time.

Second, if i am correct, purgatory primarily deals with unsatisfied temporal punishments for unconfessed venial sins. Thus, these sins do not warrant eternal punishment, but there is a temporal punishment that remains. Nothing impure can enter into the presence of God.

 

[Cachonga]

Atreides:

First of all, courtroom analogies are just that - analogies. They are not the be-all, end-all explanations of sin and the atonement. Before using an analogy to justify an argument, consider whether you’re pushing the analogy too far (or even whether the analogy is appropriate). While many Protestant (especially Reformed) understandings of the atonement lean heavily on courtroom language, older models are not quite as juridical in tone (Before using a courtroom analogy, consider how relative courtrooms are from culture to culture, then you might see why that’s the case). Thus, the Catholic Church’s idea of how the atonement is applied to one’s life invovles neither the idea of all sin as a singular offense nor forgiveness of all sin, past, present and future, at one point in time.

Second, if i am correct, purgatory primarily deals with unsatisfied temporal punishments for unconfessed venial sins. Thus, these sins do not warrant eternal punishment, but there is a temporal punishment that remains. Nothing impure can enter into the presence of God.

OK, so let’s put it in terms of what would have been understood 2000 years ago. You commit a crime, are caught and brought before the King. You are guilty. You know you are guilty. You admit your guilt to the King. After all this, the King completely forgives you. What sentence do you have to pay if the King has declared you forgiven? If the King has declared you to be forgiven, who has the authority to impose a punishment upon you?

Your second point is moot since you have been forgiven by the King. Romans 6:23 reads, “For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.” I see no distinction of sins (cardinal or venial). Luke 12:47-48 says, “And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.”, which clearly demonstrates the way God views sin (with or without knowledge of what is right). For example, God told Moses that you cannot marry you sister (or half sister), yet Abraham had married his half-sister, Sarah. This happened before the law was given, so there was no knowledge on Abraham’s part that this was sin. Likewise, God instructed Moses that a man may not marry a woman and her sister while they are both alive, yet we know that Jacob had married Leah and Rachel who were sisters and bore to him 12 sons (with some help from their “handmaids”). Again, Jacob didn’t know it was sin because God hadn’t given the law yet. God even made provision in His Law for sin offerings for unknown sin (see Lev 5:17-19).

 

[CWBetts]

OK, so let’s put it in terms of what would have been understood 2000 years ago. You commit a crime, are caught and brought before the King. You are guilty. You know you are guilty. You admit your guilt to the King. After all this, the King completely forgives you. What sentence do you have to pay if the King has declared you forgiven? If the King has declared you to be forgiven, who has the authority to impose a punishment upon you?

Your second point is moot since you have been forgiven by the King. Romans 6:23 reads, “For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.” I see no distinction of sins (cardinal or venial). Luke 12:47-48 says, “And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.”, which clearly demonstrates the way God views sin (with or without knowledge of what is right). For example, God told Moses that you cannot marry you sister (or half sister), yet Abraham had married his half-sister, Sarah. This happened before the law was given, so there was no knowledge on Abraham’s part that this was sin. Likewise, God instructed Moses that a man may not marry a woman and her sister while they are both alive, yet we know that Jacob had married Leah and Rachel who were sisters and bore to him 12 sons (with some help from their “handmaids”). Again, Jacob didn’t know it was sin because God hadn’t given the law yet. God even made provision in His Law for sin offerings for unknown sin (see Lev 5:17-19).

Purgatory id for those who have unforgiven venial sin at their death (the way I understand it). Forgiveness is not a once for all thing…we have to keep going back!

 

[Cachonga]

CWBetts:

Purgatory id for those who have unforgiven venial sin at their death (the way I understand it). Forgiveness is not a once for all thing…we have to keep going back!

Question – when you first come to God and ask to have your sins forgiven, does He just cleanse the sins you had from birth until you asked for forgiveness? When you go to confession, does God only forgive sins since your last confession? How many of your sins did Jesus pay for? Does He have to keep paying every time you sin? I submit that Jesus paid for ALL of your sins, from birth till death, if you are truly His. As I have already demonstrated, there is no scriptural basis for cardinal or venial sins, only sins done with or without knowledge. Furthermore, if the Church can “dip into” the Treasury of Merit and release someone from such a place, why don’t they release everyone (even on an annual basis, like at Easter)? I submit they don’t do it because of the money such a concept generates! Finally, I would ask what scriptural evidence you have for the existence of Purgatory.