A question about the Jews

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irishmac

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I have a serious question about the Jews. I would ask that the answers be civil and not anti-Semitic at all.

Are there practising Jews out there that are still waiting for the Messiah? I was always told that the prophecies in the Old Testament pointed to the rise of the Messiah. My understanding was that the Messiah, to the Jews, was to be a great and powerful leader that would rival the Caesars and make the Jews a powerful nation. Jesus Christ didn’t fit the mold of a great temporal leader to save the Jews from the world. So, my question is; Are there Jews that are still waiting the coming of the Messiah?

If so, wouldn’t the Anti-Christ fit the ideal of a Messiah were he to begin his reign on Earth today? The Anti-Christ, as I understand him to be (correct me if I’m wrong), would become a great leader who would rebuild King Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem, where he would rule. Wouldn’t he appear to fit the notion of the Messiah for the Jews?

I ask that we keep the discussion civil and charitable. Mods, please close this thread the moment the discussion is no longer charitable.
 
All Jews are waiting for the Messiah. As for the anti-christ, it is not a concept that has meaning in Judaism.
 
irishmac said:
Are there practising Jews out there that are still waiting for the Messiah?
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Probably several. According to Max I. Dimont, writing in his book The Indestructible Jews,:

“This conviction that (a) crisis itself would produce the right saviour at the right time is still alive today among a small pious sect of Jews who believe that the coming of the true messiah will be made known to all Jews by a body of men known as the Lamed Vovnicks, the ‘Thirty-Six’ (from the Hebrew letter L, Lamed, and V, Vov, (each letter in the Hebrew alphabet having a numerical value). This pious sect holds that there exists at all times thirty-six Jews chosen by God who will recognize instantly the true messiah when he arrives, and make that announcement simultaneously but independently of each other, thus authenticating the messiah.”
 
Valke2 said:
All Jews are waiting for the Messiah. As for the anti-christ, it is not a concept that has meaning in Judaism.
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What is the Jewish understanding of the Messiah? How was/ is the Messiah understood to begin his reign for the Jews?
 
What will he mean to the Jews when he arrives? Will he be the great Earthly leader and bring the Jews to prominence? Will he be a great spiritual leader who makes Judaism the religion of the world?
 
Believing Jews are indeed waiting for the Messiah. Most of the Jews I know are athiests! You worry about the Jews and the Antichirst. I suspect more Christians than Jews will be running after him!
 
irishmac said:
I have a serious question about the Jews. I would ask that the answers be civil and not anti-Semitic at all.

Are there practising Jews out there that are still waiting for the Messiah? I was always told that the prophecies in the Old Testament pointed to the rise of the Messiah. My understanding was that the Messiah, to the Jews, was to be a great and powerful leader that would rival the Caesars and make the Jews a powerful nation. Jesus Christ didn’t fit the mold of a great temporal leader to save the Jews from the world. So, my question is; Are there Jews that are still waiting the coming of the Messiah?

If so, wouldn’t the Anti-Christ fit the ideal of a Messiah were he to begin his reign on Earth today? The Anti-Christ, as I understand him to be (correct me if I’m wrong), would become a great leader who would rebuild King Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem, where he would rule. Wouldn’t he appear to fit the notion of the Messiah for the Jews?

I ask that we keep the discussion civil and charitable. Mods, please close this thread the moment the discussion is no longer charitable.
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I’m not Jewish, but I can say that most of the Jews are indeed still awaiting the Messiah. You are correct in saying that he is supposed to be a great military/political champion, someone like a modern-day King (St.) David. They are not expecting any God-man (incarnate God) as they see no need for God to become flesh to begin with. There are; however, some Jews who have followed certain individuals they believe to have been the Messiah. They are more like cults, though, and are by no means mainstream Jews.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
In my opinion, your view of the anti-Christ sounds like a page out of the Left Behind series. I think that’s called post-Millenial dispensationalism, and it’s not a Catholic doctrine, if I’m not mistaken.
 
aj10 said:
Believing Jews are indeed waiting for the Messiah. Most of the Jews I know are athiests! You worry about the Jews and the Antichirst. I suspect more Christians than Jews will be running after him!
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How can a Jew be an athiest ?!

It has always been a mystery to me .
 
In the jewsforjudaism.org link, there is a heading titled: Jewish Belief in Messiah.
One of the qualifications for the messiah written there is: “If he (messiah) does not succeed, or is killed in war, it is certain that he is not the messiah promised in the Torah.”

I wonder if the writers of the qualifications bothered to study all of Isaiah, especially (Isaiah 53:7-8) “…he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,…for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”?

The Ethiopian eunuch was reading these verses in Acts 8:32-33.
 
brkn1 said:
I wonder if the writers of the qualifications bothered to study all of Isaiah, especially (Isaiah 53:7-8) “…he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,…for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”?.
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For questions as to whether Jesus could have been the Messiah (including issues to do with Isaiah 53 etc), there are these sites, for example:

[Please note, these are *anti-missionary sites and the tone often reflects the fact!]

virtualyeshiva.com/counter-index.html

drazin.com/

(You get to sections by using the Table of Contents drop-down box)

jewsforjudaism.org/

jdstone.org/truth/pages/xian.html

{edited for glaring spelling error!)
 
irishmac said:
What is the Jewish understanding of the Messiah? How was/ is the Messiah understood to begin his reign for the Jews?
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I’ve answered this in several other threads. But for openers, he won’t be divine. He will usher in an age of peace. All Jews will return to Israel. All people will worship the One God, the Temple will be rebuilt (most believe literally).
 
brkn1 said:
I wonder if the writers of the qualifications bothered to study all of Isaiah, especially (Isaiah 53:7-8) “…he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,…for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”?
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I think you can safely assume that the “writers of the qualifications” have spent at least as much time studying and arguing in excruciating depth and detail every word of the Hebrew Scriptures as any Jesuit priest has the Christian Scriptures.

jewsforjudaism.org/jewishpassion/documents/pt_isaiah53.html
 
Valke2 said:
I’ve answered this in several other threads. But for openers, he won’t be divine. He will usher in an age of peace. All Jews will return to Israel. All people will worship the One God, the Temple will be rebuilt (most believe literally).
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many Orthodox Jews and anti-Zionist Jews (there is some overlap in these groups) believe that the Messiah must be the one to reestablish the kingdom of Israel and the Temple and that the political man-made events of the last century are wrong-headed and premature, and presumptuous since they imply lack of trust in God to determine the timing.
 
KarenNC said:
I think you can safely assume that the “writers of the qualifications” have spent at least as much time studying and arguing in excruciating depth and detail every word of the Hebrew Scriptures as any Jesuit priest has the Christian Scriptures.

jewsforjudaism.org/jewishpassion/documents/pt_isaiah53.html
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After reading the link, I have to say that it seems strange how the Jewish sages have no problem transposing the nation Israel, which is described as the wife of thy Maker (Isaiah 54:5) and the “captive daughter of Zion” (Isaiah 52:2) into a MALE servant as described in Isaiah 52,53,54.
The male gender of who is described precludes the nation Israel as the servant. The gender does not keep being switched back and forth unless the interpreter is confused or mistaken.

Another mistake is the claim that the King James uses the plural of deaths in Isaiah 53:9. It is the singular (death), not deaths in my KJV.
 
WenckebachCath said:
In my opinion, your view of the anti-Christ sounds like a page out of the Left Behind series. I think that’s called post-Millenial dispensationalism, and it’s not a Catholic doctrine, if I’m not mistaken.
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First off, I have never even read the “Left Behind” series. Never had the interest. I am a cradle Catholic who was “cathecized” post Vatican II, and I have been reading as much as I can to “re-cathecize” myself. Regardless, I simply had a thought pass through my mind and I thought the good people at CAF could help. That being said, I don’t have an understanding of the Catholic doctrine concerning the Anti-Christ. Can someone instruct me on how the CC sees the Anti-Christ? My impression was that there have been and will be several Anti-Christs that pass through the ages. But the idea that the Antichrist would be a great ruler that destroys the current occupant of the Temple Mount and rebuilds the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, and begins to rule the world is so pervasive in popular culture that it is difficult to avoid sharing that as a belief. You don’t have to read “Left Behind” to get this idea from pop culture.

As to the questions I posted, I asked them because I was unaware of the role of the Moshiakh (sorry if I misspelled it). I have decided not to use the word “Messiah” here because of the connotation brought on by Christianity. I was under the assumption that the Moshiakh was to be a God-like being that re-establishes the Kingdom of David. I can say that I now understand, though I don’t share, why the Jews did not believe Christ was the Moshiakh. I can understand why it would be difficult for 1st century Jews to hear that the way to salvation is by eating flesh and drinking blood, or that the Kingdom of God was not of this world.

I appreciate all the responses by everyone and I thank you for keeping the discussion charitable. Do the Jews have a notion of a character, like the Antichrist? What is the Catholic teaching on the Antichrist?
 
irishmac said:
Do the Jews have a notion of a character, like the Antichrist?
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The anti-Jewish archetype is Haman (see the Book of Esther in your Old Testament). Heinrich Himmler even considered himself a ‘modern’ Haman, apparently.

There’s no supernatural equivalent to the anti-Christ (a concept that, in itself, of course, has no meaning whatsoever to us), Judaism doesn’t share Christianity’s ‘cosmic drama’ of a great struggle between God and Satan.
 
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