A question about the Jews

[Montalban]

Oh, I expect we’ll be quite happy to accept that fulfillment of the important things will imply fulfillment of the minor rather than vice-versa - we won’t be demanding a CV and references, it’ll be obvious.

I could almost accept it if you said “When the Messiah comes, everyone will know it” (after-all, that’s what Jesus says about his second coming). However you have all these little add-on signs, such as he’s from the House of David, which is important insofar it’s one of your criteria, but now apparently not important - at least to you. So why advertise this as a criteria? (when you know it can’t be of itself proved, except through circular logic)

If you consider that as having it both ways, then ok, to you it’ll be having it both ways, for us, we’ll be too busy dealing with packing for Israel (those of us who aren’t there, of course) to worry about what your position on the issue might be.

There are Jews who think that the state of Israel is an abomination and only God can re-establish it, so perhaps you need to unpack for the time being. But keep your passport up-to-date.

But anyway, I don’t want to dwell on this any further - despite your belief that I’m agumentative.

I’d like instead, if you permit, to ask you another question.

Do you count as “Jews” those of Jewish religious faith, or is it a tribal/racial issue? I know, for instance a guy who’s an atheist homosexual who still considers himself “Jewish”

 

[Montalban]

The reason I ask, Kaninchen is that as noted above, some don’t recognise the ‘state of Israel’ as being the Israel in relation to the Messiah.

Then you’ve got a problem as to what really is a ‘Jew’ anyway.

SO the Messiah will gather all ‘Jews’ (whether this refers to practicing Jews, and/or those of Jewish ‘blood’) to a place called Israel, that may be the State of Israel, or another Israel as conferred upon by the Messiah.

 

[Kaninchen]

So why advertise this as a criteria? (when you know it can’t be of itself proved, except through circular logic)

As you know, I don’t accept your argument. One circle we could go around and around is this arguing about it, a waste of time on both our parts.

There are Jews who think that the state of Israel is an abomination and only God can re-establish it, so perhaps you need to unpack for the time being.

I’m just not terribly fond of the place.

But keep your passport up-to-date.

As an inveterate traveler, I always do.

Do you count as “Jews” those of Jewish religious faith, or is it a tribal/racial issue? I know, for instance a guy who’s an atheist homosexual who still considers himself “Jewish”

It’s a ‘People/Cultural/Historical/Religious’ concept - rather fuzzy sometimes and, as often in anything Jewish, it can be mindbendingly complex - you can even have situations where, for example, Orthodox authorities in one country don’t accept Orthodox conversions from another for some hair-splitting reason - all nonsense to me but there you are (I’m sure Catholics must find themselves in a similar situation from time to time, you accept it but deep down wonder “Why on earth?”).

 

[Kaninchen]

The reason I ask, Kaninchen is that as noted above, some don’t recognise the ‘state of Israel’ as being the Israel in relation to the Messiah.

I’d say it’s a ‘national home’ rather than Messianic Israel. Doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be a ‘national home’, though.

Then you’ve got a problem as to what really is a ‘Jew’ anyway.

SO the Messiah will gather all ‘Jews’ (whether this refers to practicing Jews, and/or those of Jewish ‘blood’) to a place called Israel, that may be the State of Israel, or another Israel as conferred upon by the Messiah.

We’re back to a ‘Jewish shrug’ and waiting for Messiah to sort it out - possibly when we prove ourselves ready for Messiah, of course (but that’s quite another story).

 

[ricmat]

Kaninchen:

Looking at the debate above with Montalban…

To say that “after the smoke clears, it will be obvious that yes, that was the Messiah” avoids a very practical consideration.

What do Jews do when a possible messiah appears, but the smoke hasn’t cleared yet? Stand on the sidelines and wait for the game to be over?

Don’t you need to join his team before the game is over? Isn’t that the reason for the messianic qualification (Son of David, etc.) – so that you can recognize him and be part of his team?

 

[Valke2]

Valke2;1948649:

The very criteria you require precludes Israel also.

Not really. I don’t see the point really in going over ground that has been hashed and rehashed by smater people than me over the last 2,000 years. Unless you really haven’t had this discussion before, then we should just agree to disagree.

 

[Valke2]

Kaninchen:

Looking at the debate above with Montalban…

To say that “after the smoke clears, it will be obvious that yes, that was the Messiah” avoids a very practical consideration.

What do Jews do when a possible messiah appears, but the smoke hasn’t cleared yet? Stand on the sidelines and wait for the game to be over?

Don’t you need to join his team before the game is over? Isn’t that the reason for the messianic qualification (Son of David, etc.) – so that you can recognize him and be part of his team?

As I’ve said elsewhere, if I see my friend who is 8 months pregnant, I don’t need to ask “Did you have the baby yet?” The answer is self evident and self proving. I (and many Jews) believe that when the Mesiah is here, it will similarly be self-proving.

 

[Kaninchen]

To say that “after the smoke clears, it will be obvious that yes, that was the Messiah” avoids a very practical consideration.

What do Jews do when a possible messiah appears, but the smoke hasn’t cleared yet? Stand on the sidelines and wait for the game to be over?

Don’t you need to join his team before the game is over? Isn’t that the reason for the messianic qualification (Son of David, etc.) – so that you can recognize him and be part of his team?

I’d say Valke is right (post above) this.

There’s no formula in the Tanakh to tell us what to do when Messiah turns up no “And in that time there will go a detailed job advert in the Jerusalem Post and a great gathering up of Uzis.”

As a Jewess, I expect that that there will be an awful lot of cleaning and cooking involved.

 

[Valke2]

I’d say Valke is right (post above) this.

There’s no formula in the Tanakh to tell us what to do when Messiah turns up no “And in that time there will go a detailed job advert in the Jerusalem Post and a great gathering up of Uzis.”

As a Jewess, I expect that that there will be an awful lot of cleaning and cooking involved.

LOL!! Talk about a self-evident truth!

 

[Valke2]

BTW, how will Christians know when Jesus returns?

 

[Kaninchen]

BTW, how will Christians know when Jesus returns?

Something about seven performing seals, or so I’ve heard anyway.

 

[brkn1]

brkn1;1948936:

Not really. I don’t see the point really in going over ground that has been hashed and rehashed by smater people than me over the last 2,000 years. Unless you really haven’t had this discussion before, then we should just agree to disagree.

Thanks for putting up with my questions, and yes, I will agree to disagree.
This is the first time I’ve ever discussed the subject and I’ve learned a bit from it.
I also agree that many far more knowledgeable and intelligent scholars have already poured over all of the details of Isaiah 53.

Maybe someone could point me to a link that answers or simply discusses the question I had about how Judaism resolves the contradiction in Isaiah 53 regarding the servant v.10 “prolongimg his days” versus v.12 “pouring out his soul unto death”. Christians can answer both by using Jesus’ resurrection for v.10.

It might be time to end my discussion here, but I want to thank those who responded, although they disagree. Disagreements tend to motivate me to study the Word more deeply, which I always find rewarding.

 

[Valke2]

Valke2;1950317:

Thanks for putting up with my questions, and yes, I will agree to disagree.
This is the first time I’ve ever discussed the subject and I’ve learned a bit from it.
I also agree that many far more knowledgeable and intelligent scholars have already poured over all of the details of Isaiah 53.

Maybe someone could point me to a link that answers or simply discusses the question I had about how Judaism resolves the contradiction in Isaiah 53 regarding the servant v.10 “prolongimg his days” versus v.12 “pouring out his soul unto death”. Christians can answer both by using Jesus’ resurrection for v.10.

It might be time to end my discussion here, but I want to thank those who responded, although they disagree. Disagreements tend to motivate me to study the Word more deeply, which I always find rewarding.

I want to apologize if I came off sounding arrogant. It is just that I’ve had this debate several times and I sometimes assume I’m having it with the same person. You can try Jews for Judaism website. Here is what it has to say about v. 10-12:

53:10 “He shall see his seed.” The Hebrew word for “seed”, used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as “sons”, is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 “He will prolong his days.” Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?

53:11 “With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just.” Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not “justify the many.” The Jewish mission is to serve as a “light to the nations” which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God’s Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 “Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.” If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq136.html

 

[ricmat]

As I’ve said elsewhere, if I see my friend who is 8 months pregnant, I don’t need to ask “Did you have the baby yet?” The answer is self evident and self proving. I (and many Jews) believe that when the Mesiah is here, it will similarly be self-proving.

That seems to me to be somewhat like finding yourself at the last judgement, and saying “Well, I guess there actually is a God, heaven, and hell.”

A self evident truth at that point. But too late to make any difference.

Christ’s first coming, to establish the kingdom of God (and his continuing presence in the Eucharist) was done so by the time the self evident truth arrives, we’ve already chosen correctly.

BTW - thanks to Valke, Kaninchen, etc. for their participation on this forum. You can’t understand Christianity without understanding Judaism, and you both help a lot (and others too).

 

[Montalban]

As I’ve said elsewhere, if I see my friend who is 8 months pregnant, I don’t need to ask “Did you have the baby yet?” The answer is self evident and self proving. I (and many Jews) believe that when the Mesiah is here, it will similarly be self-proving.

There’s no comparison here because a pregnant woman is clearly pregnant, but an ‘almost’ Messiah is not clearly a Messiah until after all the criteria have been met.

 

[Montalban]

BTW, how will Christians know when Jesus returns?

Everyone will know. We don’t have to wait around to chech his claims against the OT. Nor will we have a ‘pregnant’ wait.

Just like Kaninchen! Now you’re doing the same thing. Unable to come up with an answer about your own faith, you want to see if you can find ‘troubles’ in someone else’s as a diversion.

 

[Kaninchen]

Everyone will know. We don’t have to wait around to chech his claims against the OT. Nor will we have a ‘pregnant’ wait.

You’re just too smart for us Montalban!

 

[Montalban]

I want to apologize if I came off sounding arrogant. It is just that I’ve had this debate several times and I sometimes assume I’m having it with the same person. You can try Jews for Judaism website. Here is what it has to say about v. 10-12:

53:10 “He shall see his seed.” The Hebrew word for “seed”, used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as “sons”, is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 “He will prolong his days.” Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?

53:11 “With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just.” Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not “justify the many.” The Jewish mission is to serve as a “light to the nations” which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God’s Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 “Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.” If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq136.html

It’s easy to go from “Let’s talk about Judaism” to “Let’s talk about Christianity” especially when faced with difficult questions.

You should start another thread.

 

[Valke2]

It’s easy to go from “Let’s talk about Judaism” to “Let’s talk about Christianity” especially when faced with difficult questions.

You should start another thread.

what difficult questions? Someone asked for a link to show the Jewish perspective on Isaiah.

 

[Valke2]

Everyone will know. We don’t have to wait around to chech his claims against the OT. Nor will we have a ‘pregnant’ wait.

Just like Kaninchen! Now you’re doing the same thing. Unable to come up with an answer about your own faith, you want to see if you can find ‘troubles’ in someone else’s as a diversion.

Why is it that “everyone will know” is an acceptable response to “how will people know when Jesus returns”, but “it will be self evident/self proving” is a circular logic when asked how we will know when the Messiah arrives?