A question for all Protestants being lead by the Holy Spirit

[Prodigal_Son1]

The OP, in an moment of absolute sobriety asked a question: **A question for all Protestants being lead by the Holy Spirit **

Setting aside for a moment that by definition, a Holy God such as the one we have is not going to lead those of whom are not of the redeemed. Here is his amazingly thoughtful question:

*If the meaning of the Bible is so clear-----so easliy interpreteted==and the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves,then why are there over 36,000 non-catholic church and millions protestants ,all interpreting the Bible differently *

In what looks like a rhetorical question to the untrained eye: If the meaning of the Bible is so clear-----so easliy interpreteted with a tag-a-long qualifier ***and the Holy Spirit *** which is not in fact a repeat of the title of the work by the venerable Pick but rather a cleaver play-on-words to confuse and befuddle the spiritual adolescents on this board, we finally come to the unspoken “meat” of the essay, and that is this. Allow me restate a statement [of fact] posing as a question…

Since there are 36 million, no, make that 36 trillion protestant church, one for every 10 protestants on the planet, the Roman Catholic Church must be the one true Church. So there you have it. Simple.

But we are left with that one word in an otherwise masterful piece, a word that sticks out like a sore thumb…and that word is…why? Why all these protestant church? Why, Why, Why? Does anyone really know why? Why on earth are there so many, up to one gazillion protestant church out there? Think about it. A three letter word that raises so much concern to Mr. Pick. Why? And so Mr. Pick askes the question when he looks in the mirror, why me? Why must I carry the burden of answering one of lifes most pressing questions…why so many protestant chuch? And only 1 on the Roman side. Why?

This is a forum where theology is debated.

The question is simple, There is one Holy Spirit, yet there are ‘lots’ of denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines/teachings, and ALL claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is one, as is truth. Truth cannot have mulitple meanings, that conflict, and remain ‘truth’.

If you find the discussion to much to handle, then you can simply avoid it, as opposing to making it personal and attacking the OP.

 

[BrianH]

We are talking about truth. Truth is not divided into more than one meaning and still remains truth.

The problem lies within those claiming sola scriptura and ignore scriptures that support tradition, whether by word or epistle.

I’ve asked the question, ‘Where in scriptures does it tell each individual that they will be led by the Holy Spirit, in reference to understanding scriptures?’ It receives no attention, because when reading in context, that Holy Spirit guidance was not told that every single individual would receive it. Those promises were made ONLY to the Apostles, chose and appointed by Christ.

That does not address my statement though.
Would you address it?

If believers are not to examine scriptures to find the Truth, then we are all stuck in the church we were born in or did you make an exception for yourself?

 

[BrianH]

This is a forum where theology is debated.

The question is simple, There is one Holy Spirit, yet there are ‘lots’ of denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines/teachings, and ALL claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is one, as is truth. Truth cannot have mulitple meanings, that conflict, and remain ‘truth’.

If you find the discussion to much to handle, then you can simply avoid it, as opposing to making it personal and attacking the OP.

And groups that believe in Scripture and Tradition also disagree. Where is the consistency?
I do not believe in Sola Scriptura but this argument cannot only work against one group.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That does not address my statement though.
Would you address it?

If believers are not to examine scriptures to find the Truth, then we are all stuck in the church we were born in or did you make an exception for yourself?

The Catholic Church has a reading from the Old Testament, New Testament and from one of the Gospels at every Mass, 365 days a year. There is no separation from scriptures with teachings from the Church. We are encouraged to read the scriptures, in light of the traditions of the living Church.

No one is saying someone should not examine scriptures.

It’s the ‘finding of Truth’ that divides people, as some read it as if every word is specifically addressing themselves. That is not scriptural, at least I’m not aware of where it’s written.

I know of examples where men of authority read and explained scriptures to the peole and causing them to understand (Nehemiah 8).

I know where Christ taught the people to observe and do whatsoever those who sat upon the chair of Moses said to them. He did not tell them to go to scriptures on whatsover those that sat upon the chair of Moses said to them. The scriptures tell us the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, the place where the manifold wisdom of God made by made known. We know that Peter warned against people wresting the scriptures.

I think I’ve told you before Brian, I am a convert from Protestantism to Catholicism. I was not ‘stuck’. I prayed, read scriptures, researched and reflected.

Where did Christ, or the Apostles (authors of the New Testament) teach the ‘multitudes’ to examine scriptures and find ‘Truth’ for themselves?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And groups that believe in Scripture and Tradition also disagree. Where is the consistency?
I do not believe in Sola Scriptura but this argument cannot only work against one group.

I’m sorry, but I see that argument as an attempt to justify the many disagreements of the many Churches. It doesn’t make it right to have even more disagreements, because of disagreements.

The scriptures are clear. With all authority from Heaven, Christ chose and appointed men. Christ built a Church. Those chosen and appointed men appointed other men, and scriptures give the guidelines for the imposition of hands. There was an Apostolic authority establised in scriptures.

Catholics have always said on this forum, Traditions of the Church, plus scriptures.

Those who ‘preach’ sola scriptura do so without scriptural support.

Those who disagree with traditions and scriptures seek unity, or at least there are attempts.

Are there attempts between the sola scripturists to unify? From what I’ve seen, it’s their way or the highway.

 

[BrianH]

Saying something is an excuse, which assumes someone knows my heart, does not address logical inconsistency. I cannot help the way my brain works.
I sincerely request that someone please answer my question. Please.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Saying something is an excuse, which assumes someone knows my heart, does not address logical inconsistency. I cannot help the way my brain works.
I sincerely request that someone please answer my question. Please.

Brian, as I view that type argument as a ‘justification’, I didn’t necessarily mean you specifically and apologize for my poor choice of words.

As for your question, I have addressed it as best as I could in post #24.

Two people, with opposing views, claim to be right. This does not invalidate both views, especially when one considers the time span between the two views in theological discussions.

What gives the more modern view more insight over the older view?

 

[shawn38]

Where in scriptures does it tell each individual that they will be led by the Holy Spirit, in reference to understanding scriptures?

The Holy Spirit teaches us all things (Jn 14:26, 1 Jn 2:27), expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words (1Cor 2:13), guiding us into all truth (Jn 16:13) for the Spirit is truth (1 Jn 5:6) and God’s word is truth (Jn 17:17). The Spirit reminds us of everything Jesus said (Jn 14:26), the living and enduring word of God (1 Ptr 1:23).

 

[shawn38]

And groups that believe in Scripture and Tradition also disagree. Where is the consistency?
I do not believe in Sola Scriptura but this argument cannot only work against one group.

Lets not lump Biblical tradition which is scriptural with tradition of men.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Holy Spirit teaches us all things (Jn 14:26, 1 Jn 2:27), expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words (1Cor 2:13), guiding us into all truth (Jn 16:13) for the Spirit is truth (1 Jn 5:6) and God’s word is truth (Jn 17:17). The Spirit reminds us of everything Jesus said (Jn 14:26), the living and enduring word of God (1 Ptr 1:23).

I disagree with the Holy Spirit teaching us all things as written in John 14:26. Those words were only spoken to the men Christ chose and appointed over His Church. That was not spoken to the multitudes.

1 John 2:27 speaks of an ‘annointing’ and not specifically the Holy Spirit. John is telling them, ‘they’ have been taught sufficiently already and have the grace and knowledge of the Church, which has the unction of the Holy Ghost and those false teachers do not.

1 Corinthians 2:13 speaks in the spirit of thing the author was speaking. Paul was an Apostle, an authority in the Church. In otherwords, Paul delivered words, not of human wisdom, but wisdom of the Holy Spirit within him.

John 16:13, the audience of those words spoken has not changed from the Apostles. The same for John 17:17. In fact, read John 13 through John 18 and you’ll see, Christ is only speaking to those He chose and appointed over His Church. These words were not spoken to the ‘multitudes’. Who was being spoken to, is an important part of reading in context. Let’s go one step further. Show me anytime Christ made such statements to the multitudes, in any of the Gospels. Show me anytime Christ spoke to the multitudes and commanded them to ‘teach’ or ‘preach’.

1 John 5:6 is speaking of the spirit by which the author testifies the truth of Christ.

1 Peter 1:23 does not speak of the Holy Spirit, specifically. And the ‘word of God’, which is Christ, who was born of incorruptible seed and lives forever, which by we can live forever.

As I mentioned above, one must consider the audience being spoken to, or written to, to receive the correct context. We, today, are mostly ‘laypersons’, or the ‘multitude’. Those of Apostolic succession are the authority.

The Holy Spirit works within us, when we receive the truth from the Holy Spirit within the Church. That’s who Christ’s promises were made to, when He spoke those things to the men He chose and appointed over His Church. Where does scriptures tell us that we receive the Holy Spirit through scriptures, specifically?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Lets not lump Biblical tradition which is scriptural with tradition of men.

While we’re not lumping, please show us where scriptures state that scriptures are the ‘final authority’? Show us where scriptures teach us to specifically interpret scriptures for ourselves, individually?

If those things are not in scriptures, they are ‘traditions’ which are NOT scriptural.

 

[po18guy]

The Holy Spirit always unites.
The demon always divides.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Holy Spirit always unites.

That gives me an idea for a new thread. We know the Catholic Church has communicated with other Churches, in hopes of unification. But how many Protestant Churches are seeking unification with other Churches?

 

[po18guy]

That gives me an idea for a new thread. We know the Catholic Church has communicated with other Churches, in hopes of unification. But how many Protestant Churches are seeking unification with other Churches?

We have seen the first tentative steps toward Christian re-unity in England. Additional steps will apparently be taken in Canada. The reunification of the Body of Christ will take, perhaps, even longer to accomplish than it took to divide. No matter what one’s Christian bent may be, there is only one organization through which this can possibly occur.

As I see it, the divisions in Christendom boil down to the difference between denial of self and indulgence of self. Only one is the teaching of Christ.

 

[shawn38]

I disagree with the Holy Spirit teaching us all things as written in John 14:26. Those words were only spoken to the men Christ chose and appointed over His Church. That was not spoken to the multitudes.

Jn 14:26 is applies to all in Christ Jesus for whom the Holy Spirit dwells. Referenced at the end.

1 John 2:27 speaks of an ‘annointing’ and not specifically the Holy Spirit. John is telling them, ‘they’ have been taught sufficiently already and have the grace and knowledge of the Church, which has the unction of the Holy Ghost and those false teachers do not.

1 Jn 2:27 “the anointing you received from him remains in you” is the same reference in 1 Jn 2:20 references .“But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth”. How do we know we know the truth? The Spirit of truth (Jn 14:17, Jn b 15:26, Jn 16:13) now lives with us (Jn 14:17) and will be in us (Jn 14:17, Rom 8:4, 1 Jn 4:4), sent into our hearts by God (Gal 4:6). He has given us of His Spirit, we know that we live in Him and He in us (1 Jn 4:13). God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38). This is the same annoiting.

1 Corinthians 2:13 speaks in the spirit of thing the author was speaking.as an Apostle, an authority in the Church. In otherwords, Paul delivered words, not of human wisdom, but wisdom of the Holy Spirit within him.

True. And this same Spirit of truth (Jn 14:17, Jn b 15:26, Jn 16:13) now lives with us (Jn 14:17), the true believer who has called upon the Lord (Acts 2:21) after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, has repented and was saved (Acts 2:38), and then sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) in their heart (Gal 4:6, Jn 14:17), a seal of ownership (2 Cor 1:21).

John 16:13, the audience of those words spoken has not changed from the Apostles. The same for John 17:17. In fact, read John 13 through John 18 and you’ll see, Christ is only speaking to those He chose and appointed over His Church. These words were not spoken to the ‘multitudes’. Who was being spoken to, is an important part of reading in context. Let’s go one step further. Show me anytime Christ made such statements to the multitudes, in any of the Gospels. Show me anytime Christ spoke to the multitudes and commanded them to ‘teach’ or ‘preach’.

1 John 5:6 is speaking of the spirit by which the author testifies the truth of Christ.

True. Jn 5:32 reaffirms “There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.”

1 Peter 1:23 does not speak of the Holy Spirit, specifically.

Sure it does. Titus 3:5-6 “He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,”

And the ‘word of God’, which is Christ, who was born of incorruptible seed and lives forever, which by we can live forever.

True.

As I mentioned above, one must consider the audience being spoken to, or written to, to receive the correct context. We, today, are mostly ‘laypersons’, or the ‘multitude’. Those of Apostolic succession are the authority.

Where can you prove that? Though the audience for much of Jesus’ teachings were the apostles, the teachings are not confined to them. Matt 28:19-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” The apostles are to teach the disciples everything that Jesus had commanded. Everything!

The Holy Spirit works within us, when we receive the truth from the Holy Spirit within the Church.

The Holy Spirit begins His good works in us (Phil 1:5, Eph 2:10) to will and to act according to His good purpose (Phil 2:13) to live a holy life (1 Thess 4:7) in all we do (1 Ptr 1:15), made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb 10:10), having been brought near through the blood of Christ (Eph 2:13)… The Holy Spirit reveals to us what God has prepared for us (1 Cor 2:9-10), what we are called to do (Acts 13:2), and enables us to understand what God has freely given us (1 Cor 2:12). Never does the Holy Spirit require a church as a means of enlightning.

That’s who Christ’s promises were made to, when He spoke those things to the men He chose and appointed over His Church

Which promise? Verse please so I know what you’re referencing.
Eternal life to all that believe? (Matt 19:29, Mk 10:30, Lk 18:30, Jn 3:15-16, Jn 3:36, Jn 4:14, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:40, Jn 6:54, Jn 10:28, Jn 17:2, , Acts 13:48, Rom 2:7, Rom 5:21, Rom 6:22-23, Gal 6:8, 1 Tim 1:16-17, Titus 3:7, 1 Jn 1:2, 1 Jn 2:25, 1 Jn 5:11, 1 Jn 5:13, Jude 1:21).

Where does scriptures tell us that we receive the Holy Spirit through scriptures, specifically?

No where. But one can read and believe. But still that faith is the result of God’s calling (1 Thess 4:7, Acts 2:39, 1 Ptr 1:15)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Jn 14:26 is applies to all in Christ Jesus for whom the Holy Spirit dwells. Referenced at the end.

Please read John 13 through 18 and tell me who all is the audience Christ is speaking too? Others show up in John 18, but they’ve come to arrest Him.

Where can you prove that? Though the audience for much of Jesus’ teachings were the apostles, the teachings are not confined to them. Matt 28:19-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” The apostles are to teach the disciples everything that Jesus had commanded. Everything!

Again, who is the audience Christ is speaking too in Matthew 28?

Ok, the Apostles did and are teaching everything He commanded. Show me where Christ spoke those words to the multitudes? Surely He did everything He was commanding them to teach. Where in scriptures does He tell the ‘multitudes’ to ‘teach’ or ‘preach’?

The Holy Spirit begins His good works in us (Phil 1:5, Eph 2:10) to will and to act according to His good purpose (Phil 2:13) to live a holy life (1 Thess 4:7) in all we do (1 Ptr 1:15), made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb 10:10), having been brought near through the blood of Christ (Eph 2:13)… The Holy Spirit reveals to us what God has prepared for us (1 Cor 2:9-10), what we are called to do (Acts 13:2), and enables us to understand what God has freely given us (1 Cor 2:12). Never does the Holy Spirit require a church as a means of enlightning.

Those letters were written to the Church’s, specifically those the Apostles appointed themselves. They were instructions, corrections and even reprovings. Sure, those letters were read to the multitudes, just as they are read by and to the multitudes today. Nowhere did Christ give a ‘blanket’ authority to the multitudes. I’m open to correction if you wish to provide the scriptures.

Which promise? Verse please so I know what you’re referencing.
Eternal life to all that believe? (Matt 19:29, Mk 10:30, Lk 18:30, Jn 3:15-16, Jn 3:36, Jn 4:14, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:40, Jn 6:54, Jn 10:28, Jn 17:2, , Acts 13:48, Rom 2:7, Rom 5:21, Rom 6:22-23, Gal 6:8, 1 Tim 1:16-17, Titus 3:7, 1 Jn 1:2, 1 Jn 2:25, 1 Jn 5:11, 1 Jn 5:13, Jude 1:21).

Eternal life was a teaching He commanded them to teach the people, the multitudes, the laypersons.

No where. But one can read and believe. But still that faith is the result of God’s calling (1 Thess 4:7, Acts 2:39, 1 Ptr 1:15)

For us to be able to read it for ourselves and teach ourselves, it must be written so in sciptures. It’s not in there. In fact, Christ corrected many misinterpretations of scriptures. Acts tells us of the Ethiopian who had scriptures, but could not understand them, until Philip preached Jesus to him. Then He believe and was baptized.

Peter specifically warns against people ‘wresting’ scriptures, to their own destruction. He goes on to warn of being led aside by the error of the unwise.

We have multiple denominations, all with different doctrines, all based on ‘private interpretations’. Since they don’t agree, it’s easy to see that someone has wrested the scriptures.

 

[po18guy]

Bottom line: If a spirit leads you to separate from your brothers in Christ, it is not the Holy Spirit, but rather a passing spirit. For, as Paul wrote: “And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14).

 

[BrianH]

Brian, as I view that type argument as a ‘justification’, I didn’t necessarily mean you specifically and apologize for my poor choice of words.

As for your question, I have addressed it as best as I could in post #24.

Two people, with opposing views, claim to be right. This does not invalidate both views, especially when one considers the time span between the two views in theological discussions.

What gives the more modern view more insight over the older view?

Hey thanks Prodigal.
I agree you did try. I think we just view this very differently.

As far as your question, I see more development in Catholicism than I do the other forms of Apostolic churches. That raises a whole new set of questions for me.
Is that good? Is that bad?
On the other hand, since I have considered Judaism at times in my life, the question strikes rather close to me as well.
I think I am cursed to remain what I am.
I cannot fake it if I truly don’t believe it.

 

[JonNC]

If the meaning of the Bible is so clear-----so easliy interpreteted==and the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves,then why are there over 36,000 non-catholic church and millions protestants ,all interpreting the Bible differently

Bill,
Overlooking the rhetoric about “every Christian” interpreting for him/herself. From the Catholic perspective, the catechism states that the Spirit uses (non-Catholic) Churches and ecclesial communities for the purpose of salvation. Also, Cr. Ratzinger has said that there is a true presence of Christ in a Lutheran Eucharist. Therefore, if I am receiving sanctifying grace, and a kind of real presence of the Lord in my Lutheran Church, which will lead me to the Church Triumphant, then, clearly, I am being led by the Holy Spirit into Truth. If the CC wants to claim that this takes place under it’s umbrella, then so be it.

Jon

 

[Jon_Hus]

This is a forum where theology is debated.

I love this statement.