A question for all Protestants being lead by the Holy Spirit

[Prodigal_Son1]

I love this statement.

Why do you choose to ‘attack individual posters’ as opposed to debating theology? Your tone is more than noticable.

 

[shawn38]

Please read John 13 through 18 and tell me who all is the audience Christ is speaking too? Others show up in John 18, but they’ve come to arrest Him.

Again, who is the audience Christ is speaking too in Matthew 28?

Do these commands only apply to the apostles? No, but the apostles were the audience.

Jn 13:34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Jn 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in Goda; trust also in me."
Jn 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
Jn 14:27 Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Jn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Is Christ only preparing a place for the apostles (audience) only? No, but everyone in Christ.

Multitude examples not specifically the apostles mentioned:
Jn 14:6 **No one **comes to the Father except through me.
Jn 14:12 anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Jn 14:17 The **world **cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

1 Corinthians and many other locations verify that the Holy Spirit comes into all that accept Christ. Are we to suppose that the Holy Spirit does not teach us the truth?

1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?

Though the direct audience was the apostles for that was who Christ was keeping company with. However that does not mean that it was not applicable to all who are in Christ. Are the apostles the only one’s to go and make disciples? No.

I could go on to Jn 15 to 18, but hopefully I proved my point.

 

[shawn38]

Please read John 13 through 18 and tell me who all is the audience Christ is speaking too? Others show up in John 18, but they’ve come to arrest Him.

Again, who is the audience Christ is speaking too in Matthew 28?

Based on your premise, Paul’s teachings in the letters to the Corinthians would not be applicable to the Galatians, or the letter to the Romans to the Ephesians. Paul did address particular problems existing within those churches and addressed them, but his teachings were applicable to all christians.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Do these commands only apply to the apostles? No, but the apostles were the audience.

Jn 13:34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Jn 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in Goda; trust also in me."
Jn 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
Jn 14:27 Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Jn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Is Christ only preparing a place for the apostles (audience) only? No, but everyone in Christ.

Multitude examples not specifically the apostles mentioned:
Jn 14:6 **No one **comes to the Father except through me.
Jn 14:12 anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Jn 14:17 The **world **cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

1 Corinthians and many other locations verify that the Holy Spirit comes into all that accept Christ. Are we to suppose that the Holy Spirit does not teach us the truth?

1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?

Though the direct audience was the apostles for that was who Christ was keeping company with. However that does not mean that it was not applicable to all who are in Christ. Are the apostles the only one’s to go and make disciples? No.

I could go on to Jn 15 to 18, but hopefully I proved my point.

Christ was giving specific instructions on those things the Apostles were to teach the people. He promised them the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truths and to bring all things He had spoken to them to their minds, so that THEY could teach and preach with confidence.

Let’s go with your ‘interpretation’. Show me an example of anyone who made themself a disciple, or appointed another to be in an office within the Church, without themself being appointed. Or, show me the scriptures where Christ taught the people to ‘teach’ and ‘preach’, when He spoke to the multitudes. Show me the scriptures where Christ appointed a ‘crowd’ at large. He did not teach them, the Apostles, to do something He did not do Himself.

 

[Xavierlives]

Protestants get annoyed with this 30-36,000 claim because many denominations fall under groups that are doctrinally related, making the number inaccurate. The best they can reduce it to is about 4000 denominations, and I would cut that in half just to give them the benefit of the doubt, and call it 2000 denominations. The way I see it, 2000 is just as scandalous as 36,000, so it’s better to just use the term “thousands” of denominations, and not give any number to it.

The problem is the Catholic Church wants to be the only church. We see in Revelation that seven churches are mentioned, so that kind of puts a kink into the system that the CC is the only church.

The way that Catholics like to reride protestants is to say there are a billion denominations. It is nothing but a bunch of hooey. When Catholics recognize there is more than one, then there might be one.

You risk becoming arrogant because the spirit filled Protestant feels as though his religious experience is being negated with this challenge. What you are negating is the principle of private judgement, not a persons personal religious convictions. Protestants have the Holy Spirit, but their communion with the Church is incomplete.

This is another derision. Catholics want to believe protestants are so proud. Like there is some boasting “Woo-Hoo! Look at me! I am SO smart!” This in fact is quite the opposite. Most protestants are humble people looking for answers to life’s complex problems in the Word. They trust many of the same authorities you trust (or at least the same type). Protestants are working out their faith with fear and trembling.

The answer to the OP question for Catholics should be obvious. “clearness of scripture” is not in scripture, private interpretation of scripture is against scripture, and scripture tells us the Magisterium and Tradition cannot be separated from Scripture.

Where does private interpretation come into the mix? I understand Catholics view things as the Word=The Magisterium=Tradition. The flaw to this thought really lies in the mathematics. If these were equals then, the Magisterium is equal to God. This is a slippery slope the pharisees found themselves in when Christ was being executed. They had worked out a system where they could speak for God. Christ came along to show them different.

I think that sola scriptura has greatly contributed to the fragmentation of Protestantism right from its inception. So what has been the basis for Catholic unity for 1500 years before the revolt and after? Is it because we don’t need to think on what the scriptures mean, and we “agree” by default of the Magisterium? No. Catholic unity is based on the Eucharist. That is what keeps us as One Body.

IMO, sola scriptura is the secondary cause of disunity among Protestants.

The first cause is they have no Eucharist.

Hmm… interesting way to close it out. Does one need the Eucharist to get to heaven?

 

[Xavierlives]

it doesn’t matter if there are 5, or 30,000 or 1million protestant denominations

if all are guided by the Holy Spirit, there should be just one and the same interpretation of Scripture

Just a question: Have you ever been reading the scripture and think you know what is being said, only to go to some Catholic reference to find out you were way off? So at that moment, you were being led by something other than the Holy Spirit because if you were unified, you would know the answers immediately.

What is happening here is the Catholic Church is teaching Catholics what the Holy Spirit says. This is quenching the Holy Spirit.

 

[Xavierlives]

Why do you choose to ‘attack individual posters’ as opposed to debating theology? Your tone is more than noticable.

Really? Is your tone noticable?

 

[shawn38]

Christ was giving specific instructions on those things the Apostles were to teach the people. He promised them the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truths and to bring all things He had spoken to them to their minds, so that THEY could teach and preach with confidence.

Heb 5:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. Heb 6:1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

Though the disciples that Paul was speaking of at the time were not prepared for teaching yet, they should be eventually mature to that point. These instructions for the Hebrews to teach are the same that the apostles taught.

Heb 6:12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

2 Tim 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth.

They are able to do this because of the Holy Spirit working in them.

Let’s go with your ‘interpretation’. Show me an example of anyone who made themself a disciple, or appointed another to be in an office within the Church, without themself being appointed.

Where does it say that Christ told them to? We have the Great Commissioning where they’re to go out and make disciples just as mentioned earlier in this post.

Or, show me the scriptures where Christ taught the people to ‘teach’ and ‘preach’, when He spoke to the multitudes.

Show me the scriptures where Christ appointed a ‘crowd’ at large. He did not teach them, the Apostles, to do something He did not do Himself.
Appoint them to do what? The Great Commissioning had yet to happen. The apostles had yet to receive the Holy Spirit which did was not to come until after Christ had finished His work.

Jesus did teach large crowds though
Mark 4:1 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2He taught them many things

 

[shawn38]

Christ was giving specific instructions on those things the Apostles were to teach the people. He promised them the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truths and to bring all things He had spoken to them to their minds, so that THEY could teach and preach with confidence.

Jn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Is Christ preparing a place in Heaven for the apostles (audience) only? Is He?

 

[CMatt25]

Just because you want things to be simple does not make it so. You trivialize things by trying to make them so black and white.

:clapping:

 

[CMatt25]

I am a convert from Protestantism to Catholicism. I was not ‘stuck’. I prayed, read scriptures, researched and reflected.

You did all of those things to interpret and discern where you believe the Holy Spirit was leading you and yet you deny others the same opportunity to discern where they believe the Holy Spirit is leading them?

 

[shawn38]

Christ was giving specific instructions on those things the Apostles were to teach the people. He promised them the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truths and to bring all things He had spoken to them to their minds, so that THEY could teach and preach with confidence.

Do you believe that those in Christ receive the Holy Spirit?
Jn 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 8:15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe that those in Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit?
Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
2 Cor 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

**Do you believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside those who are in Christ? **
Rom 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
1 Cor 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

We’ll see if we can find common ground.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Heb 5:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. Heb 6:1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

Though the disciples that Paul was speaking of at the time were not prepared for teaching yet, they should be eventually mature to that point. These instructions for the Hebrews to teach are the same that the apostles taught.

Heb 6:12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

Paul wrote letters of instructions, corrections and even rebukes to all the Churches, These letters were shared among the ‘congregation’, even though they were written to those appointed in authority over the Churches.

If you read Hebrews 5 ‘entirely’, it supports my view, as opposed to your view. Let’s change the emphasis and see what happens. (For room to fit a response, I am using select verses and invite you to read the entire chapter.)

**Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Heb 5:2 Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have much to say and hard to be intelligibly uttered: because you are become weak to hear**.
Heb 5:12 For whereas for the time you ought to be masters, you have need to be taught again what are the first elements of the words of God: and you are become such as have need of milk and not of strong meat.

We see, when reading in the context of the entire chapter, Paul is addressing the authority over the Church, because they were slow to learn, and by that time, they should’ve been teachers, but were not.

This was not for every person of the Church. You know scriptures well enough to know there are specific requirements, for specific offices.

2 Tim 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth.

Paul appointed Timothy and wrote a letter of instruction to him, even instructing him to commend faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also. It wasn’t for everyone. There was a selection, acceptance process to who would be in authority, in offices within the Church.

**2Ti 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.
1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.

1Ti 5:22 Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins. Keep thyself chaste.

Tit 1:5 For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:
**

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Where does it say that Christ told them to? We have the Great Commissioning where they’re to go out and make disciples just as mentioned earlier in this post.

Appoint them to do what? The Great Commissioning had yet to happen. The apostles had yet to receive the Holy Spirit which did was not to come until after Christ had finished His work.

The great commission, yes we’ve discussed it and apparently I didn’t make myself clear, or you missed it. Christ was only speaking to those He chose and appointed. The ‘great commission’ was not to the multitudes.

Mat 28:16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Jesus did teach large crowds though
Mark 4:1 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2He taught them many things

You’re stretching, it appears. This does not indicate that Christ taught them to ‘take it upon yourselfs and of yourselfs to appoint yourselfs…’ He didn’t make ‘blanket’ appointed on crowds and He did not teach the Apostles to do it. There were those who were appointed and there were the multitudes. They received different instructions.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Do you believe that those in Christ receive the Holy Spirit?
Jn 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 8:15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe that those in Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit?
Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
2 Cor 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

**Do you believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside those who are in Christ? **
Rom 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
1 Cor 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

We’ll see if we can find common ground.

Yes, yes, and yes. Receiving gifts of the Holy Spirit does not appoint/ordain us to positions of authority. Christ clearly established an authoritative Church, with authoritative offices, filled by those He chose and appointed. With that authority, those men appointed other men. NO ONE appointed themself to a position, or someone else to a position without having the proper authority as established by Christ, Himself.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You did all of those things to interpret and discern where you believe the Holy Spirit was leading you and yet you deny others the same opportunity to discern where they believe the Holy Spirit is leading them?

CMatt25, I kindly ask that, in your effort to support those who challenge the Catholic Church, you don’t assume or tell me what I am or am not doing. I am in no way denying others the same opportunity. I prayed, read scriptures, researched, and reflected. Most of those that come here and challenge Catholicism push scriptures, reject any writings previous to the reformation, including the early Church fathers, listen to what a preacher tells them and that’s it. There is no researching the history of the Bible, or the Church or writings that have a hint of Catholicism about them. I am sharing my experience, as I experienced it. If the Catholic view appears to limit one making the scriptures the sole authority, or that we should not be interpreting scriptures for ourselves, then your problem is with the Catholic Church, not me. Next, you have to place your problem with Him who built that Church, and I really don’t think you want to go there. I happen to have faith in Him, His Church and His scriptures.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt25, I kindly ask that, in your effort to support those who challenge the Catholic Church, you don’t assume or tell me what I am or am not doing. I am in no way denying others the same opportunity. I prayed, read scriptures, researched, and reflected. Most of those that come here and challenge Catholicism push scriptures, reject any writings previous to the reformation, including the early Church fathers, listen to what a preacher tells them and that’s it. There is no researching the history of the Bible, or the Church or writings that have a hint of Catholicism about them. I am sharing my experience, as I experienced it. If the Catholic view appears to limit one making the scriptures the sole authority, or that we should not be interpreting scriptures for ourselves, then your problem is with the Catholic Church, not me. Next, you have to place your problem with Him who built that Church, and I really don’t think you want to go there. I happen to have faith in Him, His Church and His scriptures.

Prodigal, I was merely asking a question. You must have missed the “?”.

My post: "You did all of those things to interpret and discern where you believe the Holy Spirit was leading you and yet you deny others the same opportunity to discern where they believe the Holy Spirit is leading them**?**

It simply appeared to me you sometimes attack those who do almost exactly what you did ( ok with the exception in your opinion of not researching history enough to your satisfaction)… but who arrive at a different interpretation or discernment than you did. You don’t think they have studied history enough and they might say for instance you improperly reject the need for Christ to reform His Church so the gates do not prevail. Different views Prod but united in faith and belief in Christ.

But I am glad to know now you are not denying others of faith the same opportunity to experience Christ as they experience Him. God bless you Prodigal and peace.

 

[shawn38]

Yes, yes, and yes. Receiving gifts of the Holy Spirit does not appoint/ordain us to positions of authority. Christ clearly established an authoritative Church, with authoritative offices, filled by those He chose and appointed. With that authority, those men appointed other men. NO ONE appointed themself to a position, or someone else to a position without having the proper authority as established by Christ, Himself.

Can we agree on the following?

The Holy Spirit tells people that they are lost and need Jesus.
The Holy Spirit shows people that Jesus was so righteous and holy that only he deserved to go to heaven.
The Holy Spirit shows a lost person that he belongs to the devil and that lost people go to hell when they die.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal, I was merely asking a question. You must have missed the “?”.

My post: "You did all of those things to interpret and discern where you believe the Holy Spirit was leading you and yet you deny others the same opportunity to discern where they believe the Holy Spirit is leading them**?**

It simply appeared to me you sometimes attack those who do almost exactly what you did ( ok with the exception in your opinion of not researching history enough to your satisfaction)… but who arrive at a different interpretation or discernment than you did. You don’t think they have studied history enough and they might say for instance you improperly reject the need for Christ to reform His Church so the gates do not prevail. Different views Prod but united in faith and belief in Christ.

But I am glad to know now you are not denying others of faith the same opportunity to experience Christ as they experience Him. God bless you Prodigal and peace.

God gave us free will. Who am I to try and take that away? All I can do is share my experience and the things I learned through an honest research with my cup emptied out for Him to fill, instead of what I had filled it with. There’s serving Him the way He wants to be served and there’s serving Him the way some are willing to serve…only one of them is obedience, in my honest opinion.

 

[Nicea325]

**Many major protestant denominations celebrate the Eucharist, you make really large assumptions by saying that’s why there is fragmentation but clearly it is not the Eucharist. **

Yeah and it differs amongst themselves.Some teach it is only symbolic (the majority) and others that it is the literal Body of Christ.

That is not an assumption,but a fact.