A question for all Protestants

[Teneas]

Scripture interprets itself and with the reason that God gave us, it is plain to see when things such as venerating Mary or indulgences do not parallel Scripture and in many cases contradict it. It is up to you to prove how these so called traditions are truth and you can’t do it.

It has been done here many times, we can not prove what you won’t listen to with open mind. Scripture interpreting itself is a load of crud when used the way you would use it. If scripture interpreted itself, it sure has interpreted itself into about 40,000 some odd denominations. Sounds like scripture is really confused to me.

If it’s truly up to individual interpretation of scripture that interprets itself, then you should respect every single person’s interpretation. In fact, lets see you lead by example and keep quiet about how others interpret that scripture that clearly interprets itself, and therefore can’t be wrong. You wouldn’t want to go against your very own beliefs and teachings now would ya?

 

[Justy90]

It has been done here many times, we can not prove what you won’t listen to with open mind. Scripture interpreting itself is a load of crud when used the way you would use it. If scripture interpreted itself, it sure has interpreted itself into about 40,000 some odd denominations. Sounds like scripture is really confused to me.

If it’s truly up to individual interpretation of scripture that interprets itself, then you should respect every single person’s interpretation. In fact, lets see you lead by example and keep quiet about how others interpret that scripture that clearly interprets itself, and therefore can’t be wrong. You wouldn’t want to go against your very own beliefs and teachings now would ya?

Oh wow, it was 30,000 last week now it’s 40,000! 10,000 more in a week. Care to tell us what the new 10,000 Protestant denominations are and what their individual Bible interpretations are? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Teneas]

Oh wow, it was 30,000 last week now it’s 40,000! 10,000 more in a week. Care to tell us what the new 10,000 Protestant denominations are and what their individual Bible interpretations are? Inquiring minds want to know!

You got my point, it’s late. You know what I meant, and are to upset to actually ever say you are mistaken. It was my mistake about the 40,000, I meant 30,000. I would still like to see you actually be a man of your word and honor all interpretations completely as valid interpretations, since scripture interprets itself, and will not have error in it. I doubt you will though, as your statement holds no truth and can’t be held as something dear and honorable enough to show just how you feel about it, by acting upon it.

 

[joe370]

Scripture interprets itself and with the reason that God gave us, it is plain to see when things such as venerating Mary or indulgences do not parallel Scripture and in many cases contradict it. It is up to you to prove how these so called traditions are truth and you can’t do it.

Justy, if Scripture interprets itself and with the reason that God gave us, then my sister who believes that Jesus was speaking symbolically, regarding the Eucharist is right, and I too am right about the Eucharist, even though I believe the exact opposite of what my sister believes - right?

What is wrong with having profound respect for someone, especially the “blessed” Mother of God?

Sola scriptura (scripture alone) - does not claim (anywhere in the Scripture) - that Scripture interprets itself, so why do you believe this to be true??? Prove me wrong and I will concede! Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition of the 16th century. The burden of proof is on you to prove that this doctrine/tradition was in fact passed on to the apostles and then to their successors, in perpetuity, by Jesus Christ. This is of course impossible; I attempted to do just that as a former Lutheran, and ended up a Catholic in the process.

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.” John 16:13

Justy, do you believe that the holy spirit is “forever” guiding Jesus’ church into all truth? Notice I didn’t say CC.

 

[jericho777]

“Upon this rock I will build My” Church,This is Our Lord speaking, what more do you need.

Bill the rock is "Christ, the Son of the living God.” the gates of hell will not prevail against Him not Peter. Christ is God and Peter is human things built on man always fail. You are miss interpretating scripture.

 

[jericho777]

It’s obvious that all denominations besides the Catholic Church have great courage then.

It depends wether you are going to let scripture say what it says or do you have to defend man made rules.

 

[Justy90]

Justy, if Scripture interprets itself and with the reason that God gave us, then my sister who believes that Jesus was speaking symbolically, regarding the Eucharist is right, and I too am right about the Eucharist, even though I believe the exact opposite of what my sister believes - right?

Is it a symbol or is it the Body and Blood of Christ? Which? You tell me.

What is wrong with having profound respect for someone, especially the “blessed” Mother of God?

Absolutely. Upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

 

[Justy90]

You got my point, it’s late. You know what I meant, and are to upset to actually ever say you are mistaken. It was my mistake about the 40,000, I meant 30,000. I would still like to see you actually be a man of your word and honor all interpretations completely as valid interpretations, since scripture interprets itself, and will not have error in it. I doubt you will though, as your statement holds no truth and can’t be held as something dear and honorable enough to show just how you feel about it, by acting upon it.

Hold on here a minute. Even with 30,000 as your alleged number of Protestant denominations, can you list them and tell us what each believes and how they differ from one another? I’d be curious to know.

 

[GratefulFred]

“Now I beseech you…that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
Paul, 1 Corinthians 1:10, The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), KJV.

Divided Christianity:
According to David Barrett et al, editors of the “World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200,” there are 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world today. “Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations.” 1

Differences among Christian faith groups are so great that some observers have suggested that a useful way of classifying Christian groups is to view them as a number of separate religions with different beliefs and practices, who share:

1. 
   *]The name “Christianity,”
   *]The text of the Bible, and
   *]Not a great deal else.
   
   They often take various conflicting positions on such topics as abortion, homosexuality, physician assisted suicide, therapeutic cloning, disciplining children, divorce, etc. They have very different beliefs on historical Christian teachings, such as the virgin birth, the atonement, the resurrection, Heaven, Hell, salvation, Satan, demons, etc.
   
   Source: religioustolerance.org/chr_divi.htm

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hold on here a minute. Even with 30,000 as your alleged number of Protestant denominations, can you list them and tell us what each believes and how they differ from one another? I’d be curious to know.

You could simply open the Yellow Pages.

Or try the **World Christian Encylopedia **published by Oxford Press and edited by David Barrett.

ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZSFEB0W7L.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01.jpg

The publisher has a major facility located in Cary, NC near my home, and I have held this book (two volumes, actually) in my own hands and confirmed the numbers printed there. You can view more information about this book here:

amazon.com/World-Christia…/dp/0195103181

For a more conservative number, try this The World Christian Database produced by the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (Presbyterian) available here:

worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/

 

[chessmane4e5]

Bill the rock is "Christ, the Son of the living God.” the gates of hell will not prevail against Him not Peter. Christ is God and Peter is human things built on man always fail. You are miss interpretating scripture.

Then why did Jesus rename Simon to Rock?

So I suppose all 11 Apostles misunderstood Jesus as well? Then all followed Peter as the Leader.

What about Jesus giving Peter the Keys to the Kingdom?

What about John 21:15-19? Jesus is telling Peter, and Peter alone, to feed the sheep?

If you take each of these and look at them separately, I am sure they can all be explained. But the point of Scripture is to look at it as a Whole. Taking all this information together leads to only one conclusion.

As for the Greek translation of petra and petros, read this.

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

But this is also good.
catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

 

[Randy_Carson]

Bill the rock is "Christ, the Son of the living God.” the gates of hell will not prevail against Him not Peter. Christ is God and Peter is human things built on man always fail. You are miss interpretating scripture.

This is incorrect.

Jesus said, “You are Kepha and on this kepha I will build my church.”

Sure, the scriptures refer to Jesus as the cornerstone elsewhere, but in this passage, Jesus portrays Himself as the builder and not as the foundation.

Now, it is true that things built on man normally fail, but the Catholic Church built by Christ has not failed in 2,000 years.

Consequently, you can see that Jesus has built well and that the promise of the Holy Spirit to lead the Church into all truth has meant that the gates of hell have never prevailed against her.

Never will, either, no matter how the winds of the Protestant Rebellion howl.

 

[Teneas]

Hold on here a minute. Even with 30,000 as your alleged number of Protestant denominations, can you list them and tell us what each believes and how they differ from one another? I’d be curious to know.

Was just a number that gets thrown around. If it’s not correct, I will glady name the correct number. However, it said in the World Christian Encyclopedia that there were 33,820 denominations.

We can change the subject of the thread if you want of course, but jumping around usually isn’t my thing.

Edit: And of course I can’t name them, or tell you all what they believe. Heck, I am willing to bet that 95% of those that call themselves the same denomination can’t even tell you what all the others believe.

 

[tweetymom]

Bill the rock is "Christ, the Son of the living God.” the gates of hell will not prevail against Him not Peter. Christ is God and Peter is human things built on man always fail. You are miss interpretating scripture.

Agreed

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by joe370 View Post
Justy, if Scripture interprets itself and with the reason that God gave us, then my sister who believes that Jesus was speaking symbolically, regarding the Eucharist is right, and I too am right about the Eucharist, even though I believe the exact opposite of what my sister believes - right?
Is it a symbol or is it the Body and Blood of Christ? Which? You tell me.

I am glad you asked! I can give you my opinion (the Body and Blood of Christ) - but I do not have the final authority to make that call. Do you ? Does my sister? Jesus did not hand me the bible and tell me to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” He told the leaders of just one church to do this, in the 1st century, the church of Matthew 16, and evidently you believe that church to be the Anglican church founded by Robert Duncan, Archbishop and Primate of the ACNA, as opposed to Jesus Christ, in the 1st century?

Justy, if the CC, (any church for that matter) - MUST defer to the bible alone as their final authority, (as opposed to church authority, regardless of denomination) - for edification and doctrinal truth, then who or what determines, in the end, whether or not their interpretation regarding doctrinal truth, is correct or incorrect???

Quote:
What is wrong with having profound respect for someone, especially the “blessed” Mother of God?
Nothing at all except if it borders worship and it takes on the elements on divinity. I was there for nearly 35 years Joe. I’ve seen it time and again.

So, you believe that some of the members of the CC to which you once attended, were worshiping Mary as if she was God? Did they tell you that they believed that Mary is divine…is God? If so, why then didn’t you attempt to correct them or perhaps ask them to talk to someone of authority in the CC, to set them straight doctrinally speaking, instead leaving the church founded by Jesus Christ? (BTW, if Jesus did NOT found the CC, then please give me the name of the man that did?) - As a former Lutheran, I was told that the CC teaches such heresy, but I could not believe that the church that can trace her lineage all the way back to the Apostles, could be guilty of such blasphemy, and upon investigating the matter myself, I found out that this inane rhetoric was nothing more than lies perpetuated by almost every PC. Why that is, I’ll never know. The CC absolutely, unequivocally

does not​

teach such blatant heresy. If people belonging to the CC are doing this, they should be corrected immediately. If the CC does teach such heresy, then perhaps you could provide some evidence that backs up your claim.

 

[joe370]

Quote:
Sola scriptura (scripture alone) - does not claim (anywhere in the Scripture) - that Scripture interprets itself, so why do you believe this to be true??? Prove me wrong and I will concede! Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition of the 16th century. The burden of proof is on you to prove that this doctrine/tradition was in fact passed on to the apostles and then to their successors, in perpetuity, by Jesus Christ. This is of course impossible; I attempted to do just that as a former Lutheran, and ended up a Catholic in the process.
Well ok.

So, you admit that Sola scriptura (scripture alone) - does not claim (anywhere in the Scripture) - that Scripture interprets itself??? If so, then why do you believe this to be true??? Like I said, prove me wrong and I will concede! Again, sola scriptura is a man-made tradition of the 16th century.

For me truth seeking deeply led me out of the Roman church and years later, I know why

.

I think I saw you on my way into the RCC. LOL…Jesus is the way and the truth and if truth led you out of the CC, then I guess you better obey Him.

Quote:
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.” John 16:13
And how do you get Roman Catholic church out o that?

Quote:
Justy, do you believe that the holy spirit is “forever” guiding Jesus’ church into all truth? Notice I didn’t say CC.
Absolutely. Upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

So, when Jesus said, Upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, he was in fact referring to the following churches, just to name a few? The holy spirit is guiding the following churches (again, just to name a few) - into all truth??? I left the CC out because you do not believe that Jesus founded the CC, or that the CC is the church of Matthew 16 -correct?

1457- United Brethren (Moravians)
1517- Lutherans: Martin Luther.
1519- Anabaptists: Grebel (after Ulrich Zwingli)
1534- Church of England: Henry VIII- 70 m.
1536- Calvinism: John Calvin
1560- Presbyterians: J. Knox (Calvin)
1570- Puritans: T. Cartwright
1582- Congregationalism: R. Brown
1605- Baptists: John Smith (Zwingli)
1620- Episcopalians: S. Seabury (Henry VIII)
1654- Quakers: Fox-
1741- Shakers: Ann Lee
1744- Methodists: J and C. Wesley
1774- Unitarians: T. Lindsay
1800- Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
1830- Mormons: Joseph Smith
1846- Adventists: W. Miller
1852- Jehovah’s Witnesses: C.Russel
1865- Salvation Army: M. Jones
1879- Christian Science: Mary Baker
1900- Pentecostals: C.F. Parham
1934- Worldwide Ch. of God: Armstrong
1954- Moonies: Sun M. Moon
1957- United Church of Christ
1969- Children of God: David “Mo” Berg

Clearly these churches do not qualify as the church of Matthew 16 or John 16:13, for they were not established by Jesus in the 1st century. Please help me find the church of Matthew 16, for all these churches were founded by men as opposed to God. The church of Matthew 16 was founded by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost? Let’s assume it’s not the CC; that shouldn’t be that difficult for you. LOL… If I am not currently attending the church of Matthew 16, established by God as opposed to mere men, then I need to know don’t you think?

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by jericho777 View Post
Bill the rock is "Christ, the Son of the living God.” the gates of hell will not prevail against Him not Peter. Christ is God and Peter is human things built on man always fail. You are miss interpretating scripture.

Hey Jericho, of course Jesus is the Divine Rock on which the CC is built, after all He is God. But, as the builder, Jesus still said: you are Kepha and on this kepha, I will build my church. This always troubled me as a former Lutheran.

If I said to you:

This is my boat and on this boat I will build my mast, would you think that I was referring to something else other than my hypothetical boat? If not, then why do you believe that Jesus was referring to something else other than Kepha (cephas, transliterated)?

Again, no one is denying that Jesus is the Divine Rock, Cornerstone; if Jesus were to remove that Cornerstone (Himself) - the church built by Christ, on Simon, renamed Kepha, would no doubt collapse under the heavy hammer of the evil one. However, as long as that Divine Cornerstone ( the chief foundation of the church - Christ) - remains firmly intact in the House of the Living God and the Pillar and Foundation of truth, surely the fellow citizens and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of Kepha and the other apostles and prophets of the 1st century, will forever be joined together and rise to become a holy temple in the Lord, in which God lives by his Spirit - right?

 

[jericho777]

Hey Jericho, of course Jesus is the Divine Rock on which the CC is built, after all He is God. But, as the builder, Jesus still said: you are Kepha and on this kepha, I will build my church. This always troubled me as a former Lutheran.

If I said to you:

This is my boat and on this boat I will build my mast, would you think that I was referring to something else other than my hypothetical boat? If not, then why do you believe that Jesus was referring to something else other than Kepha (cephas, transliterated)?

Again, no one is denying that Jesus is the Divine Rock, Cornerstone; if Jesus were to remove that Cornerstone (Himself) - the church built by Christ, on Simon, renamed Kepha, would no doubt collapse under the heavy hammer of the evil one. However, as long as that Divine Cornerstone ( the chief foundation of the church - Christ) - remains firmly intact in the House of the Living God and the Pillar and Foundation of truth, surely the fellow citizens and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of Kepha and the other apostles and prophets of the 1st century, will forever be joined together and rise to become a holy temple in the Lord, in which God lives by his Spirit - right?

Let’s look at Mat16:16-18 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

The revelation that Christ is the son of God is the rock that the church will be built on.

1 Peter 2:4-7 Is the corresponding passage in it Peter himself having the opportunity to establish himself as the rock in Mat 16 does not and instead points to Christ alone as the rock.

"As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,

a chosen and precious cornerstone,

and the one who trusts in him

will never be put to shame.”

7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,"

Also see Eph 2:19-22 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[joe370]

Let’s look at Mat16:16-18

Sure…

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

The revelation that Christ is the son of God is the rock that the church will be built on.

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. If Jesus said the following, I would agree with you, but He didn’t: I tell you that you are Peter, and on your revelation I will build my church. The Greek word for the second rock is petra [masculine in gender] - which points directly to the first rock, petros [feminine in gender]. That is why Jesus changed Simon’s name to rock, a solid foundation, metaphorically speaking. The Greek word Apokalupto (revelation) - does not mean rock; it means, as you know:

To uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up.

1. disclose, make bare
2. to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

Jesus built His church on people (the apostles and prophets) - on confessors, not a confession or a revelation.

*…but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. Eph.2 *

Jericho, If I said to you:

I tell you this is my boat and on this boat I will build my mast, would you think that I was referring to something else other than my hypothetical boat? If not, then why do you believe that Jesus was referring to something else other than Kepha (cephas, transliterated)?

The second boat refers directly to the first boat.

1 Peter 2:4-7 - Is the corresponding passage in it Peter himself having the opportunity to establish himself as the rock in Mat 16 does not and instead points to Christ alone as the rock.

For it says in scripture: "Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion, a cornerstone, chosen and precious, and whoever believes in it shall not be put to shame. Therefore, its value is for you who have faith, but for those without faith: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”

I already agreed that Jesus is the Divine Rock/Cornerstone.

So, are you saying that Jesus built His church on Simon’s revelation, or on Himself? Why the name change if the church is to be built on Simon’s revelation.

"As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,

a chosen and precious cornerstone,

and the one who trusts in him

will never be put to shame.”

7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,"

Amen brother! I agree with you; Jesus is the stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Every Catholic agrees with you.

I am trying to understand your position; I promise, but it does not make any sense to me. That perspective made no sense to me a s a former Lutheran. The bible tells us that the foundation of Jesus’ church, God’s House, are people, the apostles and prophets, and that is why Jesus said: And I tell you that you are Peter (Cephas) - and on this rock (cephas) - I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it; Peter is a person and an Apostle!

The words, “and on this rock,” are not referring to the revelation made to Simon a few verses earlier. Logically or grammatically (to me anyway) - the words, “and on this rock,” point to the first rock, just as the words, “and on this boat I will build my mast” point to the first boat. I am not being biased either, I promise. I would have no problem believing that Jesus built his church on Peter’s revelation, as well as the Apostles and Prophets, but to me, that is not the case. Perhaps you could shed a little more light on your supposition.

 

[joe370]

The Trinity is clearly demonstrated throughout the bible. The foundation and complete revelation is plainly laid out. The argument you are using is the one used by JW’s in relationship to Jesus and His divinity. Where as throughout both OT and NT Jesus is demonstrated as God incarnate. Peter, Paul, and John all exercise great authority in scripture. No one ever refers to Peter as pope. He only refers to himself as a fellow elder nothing more.
Reply With Quote

Jericho, I was perusing the thread and thought I would respond to your post. Could you show me the passages in the bible that clearly demonstrate that Jesus and the holy spirit are one, and that the Father and the holy spirit are one; perhaps I overlooked them.

This is all I could find so far, and nowhere do these verses indicate that the Son and the holy spirit are one, *(the words, “There is one body [church] - and one Spirit” *comes close but it doesn’t say that they are one like John 17 does regarding the Father and the Son; the bible also says that there is one body and one baptism, that doesn’t mean they are one) - or that the Father and the Son are one:

John 17 - "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one."

Mattew 28:19 - " therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…"

2 Cor. 13:14 - “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”

Eph. 4:4-7 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

The word pope is nothing more than a nickname for the Bishop of Rome, and the word bishop is very biblical. Seems harmless enough to me. The words sola scriptura (scriptura alone) - Trinity, bible, incarnation, (John 1:1,14 - original sin, theotokos (mother of God) - rapture, (1 Thess. 4:16-18; many different interpretations) - divinity, monotheism (Isaiah 43:10; 44:8) - are not found in the bible either.