A question for Catholic libertarians

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People can contribute now to the government, but the reverse is happening with people trying to find all kinds of tax loopholes to avoid paying taxes. There was even a man running for President of the USA on the Rpublican ticket who admitted that he had set up corporations and offices in the Cayman islands to avoid US taxes. So, the idea that people are going to pay taxes voluntarily and at a rate comparable to what they are now paying is not credible.
What that former presidential candidate did was nothing more than what the current Secretary of State did…when he berthed his yacht in a neighboring state to avoid taxes.

Under the current tax code it is all very legal.

But perhaps if there was no tax code or IRS and people knew that their taxes ONLY supported the proper functions of a government (the military, police & fire protection and the court system) then they would be happy to freely contribute a fair portion of their wealth to support such a government.
 
But perhaps if there was no tax code or IRS and people knew that their taxes ONLY supported the proper functions of a government (the military, police & fire protection and the court system) then they would be happy to freely contribute a fair portion of their wealth to support such a government.
Do you seriously want us to believe that people would be happy to pay taxes?
 
Do you seriously want us to believe that people would be happy to pay taxes?
Why not? People are happy to contribute to the Catholic Church and various charities.

Private charities, I might add, are more efficient than government welfare programs. And we are forced to pay for those…
 
Because there are reports of money being embezzled and not being used for the intended purpose.
There may be “reports” of embezzlement…but there are tens of thousands of actual cases of government welfare fraud, waste and abuse.
 
Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s obviously means that not everything is rightfully Caesar’s. St. Augustine reminds us that an unjust law is no law at all. Put not your faith in princes nor in the children of men.
 
The Libertarian argument for voluntary taxes (and government).

What if your neighbor decided that you have to pay him about a dollar a month? Well, obviously you could say “no.” Take that one step further. What if your whole neighborhood decided that you have to pay 100 dollars each month for new fences or the “American’s for Clean Toilets” organization? And…
What if the whole population of the U.S. decided that you have to pay 500 dollars each month? Just because 320,000,000 people say you have to do something doesn’t mean you have to. Might does not make Right.
 
Just because 320,000,000 people say you have to do something doesn’t mean you have to. Might does not make Right.
They have the prisons, the guns, the grenades, the tanks, and all kinds of weapons to back up their demand that you pay your taxes. So, you are wrong. You have to pay or else.
 
They have the prisons, the guns, the grenades, the tanks, and all kinds of weapons to back up their demand that you pay your taxes. So, you are wrong. You have to pay or else.
Alas, yes. The freedom that we cherish isn’t all that free.
 
They have the prisons, the guns, the grenades, the tanks, and all kinds of weapons to back up their demand that you pay your taxes. So, you are wrong. You have to pay or else.
That’s his whole point. We comply with this system because there are serious (and potentially fatal) consequences if we refuse to.
 
They have the prisons, the guns, the grenades, the tanks, and all kinds of weapons to back up their demand that you pay your taxes. So, you are wrong. You have to pay or else.
When a government has to resort to all the above…in order to take from one and give to another…that government has become a thief.
 
When a government has to resort to all the above…in order to take from one and give to another…that government has become a thief.
Let’s talk about a patent and trademark office. How does that fit into your scheme of the ideal government? Would there be different and competing private patent and trademark offices? How would conflicting claims be resolved? It seems expensive to go to court in every case in comparison with the existing system, which allows one to prove priority by being the first person to file a particular claim.

Similarly, there is ownership of land and some associated database.

Similarly, there are banks – not merely collections of contracts with depositors, employees, etc, but registered corporations, with articles of incorporation, corporate bylaws, etc that must be filed with the appropriate bureaucracy.

The advantage of such records is that it is possible to access official records. The alternative would be for all business transactions to be built on top of the sandy foundation of distinguishing between authentic and fraudulent paper documents.
 
Let’s talk about a patent and trademark office.
No.

Let’s finish the discussion about a government that robs Peter to pay Paul.

Unless you agree with me in that respect…then we can move on to legitimate services and responsibilities of a proper government.
 
Unless you agree with me in that respect…then we can move on to legitimate services and responsibilities of a proper government.
Do you feel comfortable telling citizens of Switzerland that their country does not have a proper government?
The vote on conscription was the third in Switzerland on the matter in almost quarter of a century.
Pacifists and left-wing parties campaigned for abolition. They did not expect to win, but rather muster more than a 30% share of the vote.
Male Swiss citizens aged between 18 and 34 begin service with weeks of basic training. They then keep their uniforms and weapons at home to be ready for tours of duty. Women can serve voluntarily.
Conscientious objectors have the option of undertaking non-military service, for example in environmental projects. Men who do not serve pay a special tax of 4% of their salary.
The above is from the following:
“Switzerland referendum voters to keep army conscription”
22 September 2013
Link:
bbc.com/news/world-europe-24195870
It sounds as though you want your own prescriptive theory of government to take priority over self-determination of peoples. However, surely your own ideas have been influenced by your own thinking and reading and the historical context in which that thinking and reading has occurred. There is only one you. As a unique individual, you have neither the right nor the power to speak for people of all times and all places. So I get the impression that your attitude is paradoxical.

The problem of government is not just the problem of what is the ideal system of laws, but also the problem of how to get from here to there. Otherwise, you could claim to be very interested in languages and in practice confine your attention to only one language: Esperanto.
 
A lot of you have been talking about taxation, so I’m going to explain the Catholic concepts of just and unjust taxation:

The Church teaches that authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it (CCC 1903).
So, in order for taxation to be legitimate it must: 1) seek the common good; and 2) be attained by morally licit means (ends don’t justify the means). The Church has long taught how taxation is only just when used for justice, and that when it deviates from justice it becomes theft. This is what prompted St. Augustine to ask, “Without justice, what are kingdoms but great robberies”. This is the difference between just and unjust taxation: just taxation is that which is based on justice, being in accordance with the Church’s requirements, while unjust taxation is utter theft, against the Church’s requirements.

Any type of welfare that follows from the common good requirement would have to help those in need who are unemployed, unable to work, or living in poverty. Everyone has rights to food, clothing, shelter, health, work, and other things that are needed to give someone a basic sense of humanity, and these need to be given if someone cannot attain them for themselves. However, we are also told “he who shall not work, shall not eat” (2 Thessalonians 3:10), so if someone who is physically able to work refuses to do so, and instead wants to be dependent on the community for his needs, does not deserve welfare, and all welfare will be withheld from him until he chooses to work. Aside from welfare, the common good could also call for funding for the military, infrastructure, and other things needed for a well-coordinated society.

Now we get to the second requirement: the means must be just. The means must not violate the dignity or independence of the human person and must not violate the moral law. Also, subsidiarity is an important principle in determining the morality of a tax. A tax that goes toward stimulating the economy of a local community may fit the common good requirement, but if this tax was enacted by the federal government, it would most certainly be unjust because it ignores subsidiarity. Also, one must remember that subsidiarity calls for private initiative first before the political community intervenes. If subsidiarity was actually practiced to its fullest, I believe taxation would be greatly diminished, as local charities and other organizations would step in. I emphasize here that local, private means MUST be used before force is used.

So, all taxation must be a duty of justice rather than theft, and must be used solely for the common good and must be obtained by morally licit means, with private means being tried before public ones.
 
Do you feel comfortable telling citizens of Switzerland that their country does not have a proper government?
The only purpose of a proper government is to protect people’s rights.

The only functions of a proper government are: the police, to protect us from criminals; the military, to protect us from foreign invaders; and the courts, to protect our property and contracts from breach or fraud by others, to settle disputes by rational rules, according to objective law.

Since Switzerland has “army conscription”, it does not have a proper government.

Conscription is involuntary servitude. Since the only function of a proper government is to protect our rights, it cannot claim title to our life in exchange for that protection.
It sounds as though you want your own prescriptive theory of government to take priority over self-determination of peoples. However, surely your own ideas have been influenced by your own thinking and reading and the historical context in which that thinking and reading has occurred. There is only one you. As a unique individual, you have neither the right nor the power to speak for people of all times and all places. So I get the impression that your attitude is paradoxical.
I have the right and power to speak for SOME of the people all the time in all places.
I also have the right and power to speak for ALL of the people some of the time in some places.
The problem of government is not just the problem of what is the ideal system of laws, but also the problem of how to get from here to there. Otherwise, you could claim to be very interested in languages and in practice confine your attention to only one language: Esperanto.
The only “Problem” a government has is to remember that its source of authority is “the consent of the governed.” This means that the government is not the ruler, but the servant or agent of the citizens; it means that the government as such has no rights or power except that which is delegated to it by the citizens for a specific purpose.
 
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