A question for Catholics only please

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Beeliner I have read many accounts of fatima and never read the one you posted about

Sr Lucy was told by her Bishop to write an account of what had happened ,to be given to the Holy Father. One the envelope she requested it not be opened until 1960, because she felt before that date it would not be understood

Pope John XXIII opened the letter and red it but said it was not for his time…Pope Paul VI did the same

I have never once heard that Lucy claimed anything was to be forwarded to the Pope by our Lady
 
I can’t tell you either yes or no…tis not my place to do so. However, I personally am rather skeptical about claims of apparitions of the Virgin Mary being found in a piece of “cinnamon toast” or anything like that.

The Church has always been most careful about declaring apparitions being valid. Cautious almost to the point of absurdly so, and with good reason. The Church, being the Deposit of Faith, must be cautious…to prevent being the victim of a sham or scam or heresy.

Things that you read or see in the “National Enquirer”…🤷 Not likely to be more than trick photography…considering the number of “Alien Baby stories”… But those that the Church endorses, I have no problem with…

The Blessed Virgin Mary is just exactly who and what the Church says she is…and I shall believe it forever!!👍
 
I have been a Catholic for 4 years and I still have struggles when it comes to Marian devotions and Mary sightings around the world. My question is this, is it possible that all this could be Satan influenceing the church.(2 Cor.11:13-15)?:confused:

If yes, please explain.

if no, please explain.
Interesting how God almighty works, the Blessed Virgin Mary is what inspired my faith, then through her, a deeper understanding of God.

Remember that Satan HATES Mary and is at complete and total enmity with Our Lady so the Miserable one would not use, in a certain sense, his greatest enemy (the one who bore Our Lord), as a means to tempt or influence his Enemy.
 
Beeliner I have read many accounts of fatima and never read the one you posted about

Sr Lucy was told by her Bishop to write an account of what had happened ,to be given to the Holy Father. One the envelope she requested it not be opened until 1960, because she felt before that date it would not be understood

Pope John XXIII opened the letter and red it but said it was not for his time…Pope Paul VI did the same

I have never once heard that Lucy claimed anything was to be forwarded to the Pope by our Lady
Thank you. My observation was from memory, and I will check into it further.

I think that, in general though, that would be good cause for casting some doubt on a claimed apparition, though not heretical per se.
 
Thank you. My observation was from memory, and I will check into it further.

I think that, in general though, that would be good cause for casting some doubt on a claimed apparition, though not heretical per se.
P.S. to the previous post:

red, I see no reason why we cannot both be right on this. As I recall, she was indeed asked by her bishop to prepare such an account, and that that account included a message she claimed that the Lady asked her to deliver to the pope. I further recall that the message concerned Russia.

Unfortunately, I will not have time to research that today, but will rejoin the discussion tonight, tomorrow or as soon as possible, because it’s certainly an interesting topic, and I expect that this thread will become a long one.
 
Mary, the Mother of God, was and still is, an instrument of God and will always be. God will not allow Mary to be an instrument of evil, at least convincingly. The Mother/Son relationship is forever and perfectly natural. If you can’t grasp this issue you have little understanding of any issue IMO.🤷
 
trrocks03;4032435]As there are two sides to life (good and evil) there are two sides to the Marian issue.
The catholics, who honor Mary for being such a holy woman
And the select non-catholics who believe that catholics worship Mary, thus hating the Catholic church.*
In my opinion, if satan is involved, then it is the latter option. Honor vs. Hate, which is more satan-like? Wouldn’t it make sense that satan would try to find a way to make people hate God’s church? Spreading lies is a common form of work for satan.
Hi
The answer to the bold ed part is “No”,
Almost saved is totally lost. Have you ever heard of the illustration about the frog and a pan of water? If you put a frog in a pan of cool water, put that pan on a stove and turn on the heat, the frog will stay in the pan long enough to die, but if you put that same frog in a pan of hot water it will jump out immediately. Satan doesn’t care if you “Hate” the church, but he does want you to be lost.
 
I’m sure we all know the phrase “you shall know them by their fruits”. It most perfectly describes how we should view Marian apparitions. What fruit comes? If people are guided to God and His Church, and the the apparition does not deviate from Church teaching, then we can be more comfortable that the apparition is the real deal. The Church has given us a safeguard, however, when it says that we are not required to believe in ANY apparition-- of Mary, Jesus or anyone else. The period of public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. However, as has been stated many times, the Church will investigate the matter and if there is nothing found that is contrary to the faith, the Church will tell us just that-- and then we can choose to believe in the apparition if we want to.

But we must be really careful. Some apparitions, which I won’t name because I am not supposed to, are extremely popular with lay people, but they have caused dissension in the local Church. A true apparition will NEVER cause dissention, that is to say, if the the apparition is really Mary the seers and/or faithful will not disregard what their Bishop is telling them to do; they will be obedient to the Church. However, in the cases of certain unapproved apparitions, the Bishop has told seers to stop talking about it until the investigation is complete-- and the seers continued to defy the Bishop and kept revealing what they had allegedly seen. This, I believe, is Satan at work. Mary would never cause disobedience.
 
I have been a Catholic for 4 years and I still have struggles when it comes to Marian devotions and Mary sightings around the world. My question is this, is it possible that all this could be Satan influenceing the church.(2 Cor.11:13-15)?:confused:

If yes, please explain.

if no, please explain.
It is dogma. It can not be in error since we have the teaching of Jesus teaching us that Satan would not prevail against His Church.

What is evil is giving ear to doubt and being paranoid. Why would Mary who only brings people to Jesus be evil? It’s exactly like Jesus telling the Pharisees that they were at risk of sinning against the Holy Spirt for accusing Him of being evil for healing through false gods. It’s insanity. The Devil does not bring goodness and positive things to The Church. Mary only directs her intercessions for the advance of her Son’s mission.

Ironically though, it is the cowardly preoccupation of those who find reason to be jealous of Mary’s special status who want to attack an innocent woman. In this Mary hows who does not have the true faith and proper spiritual alignment. I would not want to stand before Jesus on my day of judgement and look him into the eye and say “I believe in you Jesus but I have a problem with those who revere your mother”. I don’t think any who have an active disdain for Mary nor the Catholic Church have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting into heaven.

James
 
what i find most amazing in her apparitions is that she always comes to the innocent ones. i never heard of a priest or a bishop seeing her. and her apparitions comes with many miracles. I BELIEVE>
 
what i find most amazing in her apparitions is that she always comes to the innocent ones. i never heard of a priest or a bishop seeing her. and her apparitions comes with many miracles. I BELIEVE>
I don’t think you meant to imply that our celibate priests are not "innocent’. I note too that in ALL cases where Mary has revealed something she has always instructed that the person witnessing the apparition to go convey it to the Church authority - the bishop. Mary always works through the authority of the Church - never around it. She does often seem to have a preference for appearing to young children or those not very sophisticated. Recall that one of the most amazing apparitions with a tangible artifact is Our Lady of Guadeloupe. In this case she appeared to a very modest local grown man named Juan Diego. This contradicts your theory a bit.

My own thoughts is that she chooses very modest and unsophisticated non-worldly people for a reason related to credibility. She wants to make it very clear that no child or meek person has a sophisticated enough mind to possibly construct “a false story” without producing some contradictions or errors. It just gives more credibility when she uses children or very modest common people who have never ventured out of their villages or have low education. These people could not possibly know things well outside of their cultural experience and education much less come up with symbols and things that have deep significance to theologians and scholars. Note too that Catholic priests and bishops are as a rule very well trained and have enough theology and training to be in a position to construct false stories that could easily pass severe scrutiny through deliberate application of their knowledge. So she does not use the highly educated to bring messages since people would immediately claim they ised their knowledge to make it all up. This is my theory on why Mary rarely appears directly to priests and bishops.

James
 
I don’t think you meant to imply that our celibate priests are not "innocent’. I note too that in ALL cases where Mary has revealed something she has always instructed that the person witnessing the apparition to go convey it to the Church authority - the bishop. Mary always works through the authority of the Church - never around it. She does often seem to have a preference for appearing to young children or those not very sophisticated. Recall that one of the most amazing apparitions with a tangible artifact is Our Lady of Guadeloupe. In this case she appeared to a very modest local grown man named Juan Diego. This contradicts your theory a bit.

My own thoughts is that she chooses very modest and unsophisticated non-worldly people for a reason related to credibility. She wants to make it very clear that no child or meek person has a sophisticated enough mind to possibly construct “a false story” without producing some contradictions or errors. It just gives more credibility when she uses children or very modest common people who have never ventured out of their villages or have low education. These people could not possibly know things well outside of their cultural experience and education much less come up with symbols and things that have deep significance to theologians and scholars. Note too that Catholic priests and bishops are as a rule very well trained and have enough theology and training to be in a position to construct false stories that could easily pass severe scrutiny through deliberate application of their knowledge. So she does not use the highly educated to bring messages since people would immediately claim they ised their knowledge to make it all up. This is my theory on why Mary rarely appears directly to priests and bishops.

James
i agree with you in all.
 
This is for redrosetea, following up on our exchange of early this morning:
Letter of Sr. Lucia to Pope Pius XII requesting the Consecration of the World and Russia to the Immaculate Heart
Most Holy Father,
Humbly prostrated at your feet, I come as the last sheep of the fold entrusted to you to open my heart, by order of my spiritual director.
I am the only survivor of the children to whom our Lady appeared in Fátima (Portugal) from the 13th of May to the 13th of October 1917. The Blessed Virgin has granted me many graces, the greatest of all being my admission to the Institute of Saint Dorothy. (To here this is copy of the sketch the Bishop sent me.)
I come, Most Holy Father, to renew a request that has already been brought to you several times. The request, Most Holy Father, is from our Lord and our good Mother in Heaven. [beeliner’s emphasis]
In 1917, in the portion of the apparitions that we have designated “the secret,” the Blessed Virgin revealed the end of the war that was then afflicting Europe, and predicted another forthcoming, saying that to prevent it She would come and ask the consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart as well as the Communion of reparation on the first Saturday. She promised peace and the conversion of that nation if Her request was attended to. She announced that otherwise this nation would spread her errors throughout the world, and there would be wars, persecutions of the Holy Church, martyrdom of many Christians, several persecutions and sufferings reserved for Your Holiness, and the annihilation of several nations.
Most Holy Father, this remained a secret until 1926 according to the express will of our Lady. Then, in a revelation She asked that the Communion of reparation on the first Saturdays of five consecutive months be propagated throughout the world, with its conditions of doing the following with the same purpose; going to confession, meditating for a quarter of an hour on the mysteries of the Rosary and saying the Rosary with the aim of making reparation for the insults, sacrileges and indifferences committed against Her Immaculate Heart. Our good Heavenly Mother promises to assist the persons who practise this devotion, in the hour of their death, with all the necessary graces for their salvation. I exposed the request of our Lady to my confessor, who tried to have it fulfilled, but only on the 13th of September 1939 did His Excellency the Bishop of Leiria make public in Fatima this request of our Lady.
I take this opportunity, Most Holy Father, to ask you to bless and extend this devotion to the whole world. In 1929, through another apparition, our Lady asked for the consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart, promising its conversion through this means and the hindering of the propagation of its errors.
Sometime afterwards I told my confessor of the request of our Lady. He tried to fulfill it by making it known to Pius XI.
In several intimate communications our Lord has not stopped insisting on this request, promising lately, to shorten the days of tribulation which He has determined to punish the nations for their crimes, through war, famine and several persecutions of the Holy Church and Your Holiness, if you will consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, with a special mention for Russia, and order that all the Bishops of the world do the same in union with Your Holiness. I truly feel your sufferings, Most Holy Father! And, at much as I can through my humble prayers and sacrifices, I try to lessen them, close to our Lord and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Most Holy Father, if in the union of my soul with God I have not been deceived, our Lord promises a special protection to our country in this war, due to the consecration of the nation by the Portuguese Prelates, to the Immaculate Heart of Mary; as proof of the graces that would have been granted to other nations, had they also consecrated themselves to Her.
Now, Most Holy Father, allow me to make one more request, which is but an ardent wish of my humble heart; that the feast in honour of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be extended throughout the whole world as one of the main feasts of the Holy Church.
With the deepest respect and reverence I ask for the Apostolic Blessing. May God protect Your Holiness.
Tuy, Spain, 2nd of December of 1940.
Maria Lucia de Jesus
ewtn.com/expert/answers/FatimaConsecration.htm

I hope to comment, and to exchange views with red and the other contributors to this thread, on several other aspects of the Fatima phenomenon as soon as time permits.
 
is it possible that all this could be Satan influenceing the church.(2 Cor.11:13-15)?:confused:
Absolutely! It’s not only possible but has happened ever since Judas… and Christ was tempted by Satan in the desert… certainly Satan’s trying to influence the church, and not only influence it but destroy it… Check out this website, which started from Catholic Answers…

stobie.home.sprynet.com/religion/tactics-enemy.htm

Also, from what I understand, the Catholic church will state which sightings of the Virgin Mary are approved or not … for example, Medjugorje is one of the ones not approved.

I need to clarify that I’m not saying that all Marian apparitions are of the evil one – what I’m trying to say, and I guess, not saying too well, is to let the Catholic church investigate each claim of a Marian visit and trust in the outcome of the investigation.

My two cents.
 
It is often noted that there are two versions of Mormon history - there’s the Mormon version, and then there’s the non-Mormon version, and one can take one’s choice.

With regard to the Fatima phenomenon, Catholics are not so lucky. There are MANY different versions of exactly what transpired there. Here, for example, is a fairly straightforward account that begins with the assumption that the apparitions were genuine:

members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian6.htm

Wikipedia reports pretty much the same series of events, but from a neutral perspective. It is strongly recommended that the reader, after perusing the Wikipedia article, go to the top of the page and click on the tab labelled ‘discussion’. The discussion is every bit as interesting as the article itself.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fatima

But here are several other factors that the open-minded may wish to consider, and these come from a variety of sources. Some are mentioned in passing in one or both of the preceding links:
  1. The series of apparitions in the cove is, of course,
    well-publicized. Less well known is that Lucia had reported
    similar visits from heavenly personalities since early childhood,
    and also later in life, until the Church advised her to stop
    reporting them, which she did.
  2. Lucia’s mother, the person who probably knew her better than
    anyone else, according to most reports, never believed a word of
    it. She was quoted as having told a reporter. “My daughter has
    been a liar all of her life”.
  3. It is also rarely reported that each of the three children perceived the Lady differently. Lucia claimed that she was able to ‘walk with’ the Lady, which presumably meant carry on a normal, two-way conversation. Jacinta claimed that she was able to see and hear the lady but not converse with her. Fransisco claimed to only see but not hear the Lady.
  4. According to some accounts, Lucia claimed that the Lady had
    told her that nearly all the soldiers, on both sides, who had
    fallen in WWI had gone to hell as a result of their participation
    in the war. This revelation did not seem to lead the Church toward advising its young men not to serve in the military, nor does it do so today.
  5. The ‘prophecies’ involving the end of the war and the even
    worse war (WWII) to follow are well-known. What is sometimes
    missed, however, is that Lucia did not report these until 1941. It
    is not difficult to report ‘prophecies’ of events that have already
    taken place or are in progress.
Also, according to Lucia, the Lady claimed that the next war would begin during the reign of Pius XI. This was, in effect, two ‘prophecies’ in one, since there was no indication in 1917 that the man who would later be pope would take that name. Actually, WWII began several months into the reign of Pius XII (not XI), in September of 1939.
  1. History does not support the Lady’s predictions concerning Russia. The Russian Orthodox Church is firmly entrenched there as the state Church, there is no indication of any mass conversions to Roman Catholicism, and Russian Communism, far from ‘spreading its errors throughout the world’, is now history, thanks not to divine intervention, but rather to a very human and visionary leader, Mikhail Gorbatchev.
  2. Many published accounts seem to imply that the so-called ‘miracle of the sun’ was seen by all present, and in fact, many did witness such a phenomenon and some were indeed terrified by it. Less well known, however, is that many others present, when asked later for a description, reported having seen nothing remarkable at all - only that it had been raining, and at some point the rain stopped, the clouds parted, and the sun broke through.
References to Lisbon newspapers which allegedly reported the solar event, some so specific as to give the actual date and page number, all seem to be fraudulent. No such paper has ever surfaced, nor do the archives of the newspapers cited contain any such reports.
  1. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, nearly everyone seriously interested in Fatima is aware that several blatantly heretical and/or schismatic cults have formed around the phenomenon, some making claims so outrageous and ridiculous that the effect is considerable embarrassment to the Church. These groups, through their websites and publications, attempt to pass themselves off as either fully in communion with Rome, or as the true voice of the Catholicism, Rome be damned.
In posting this impromptu list, I take no advocacy position. My purpose is only to offer a somewhat broader perspective to the Fatima story.

With the basic Fatima message of prayer and penitence in a sinful world I take no exception whatever.
 
There are always going to be detractors for anything including the immaculate conception…How did Lucia arrange the miracle of the sun, seen by 70,000 people…I read 2 newspaper accounts by a press that was violently anti cleric

How do we know the people that are saying these things about Lucia are telling the truth? Why would the church protect a liar ,it has more to lose than to gain by doing so?

There has never been a shortage of revisionists of history and there never will be
…Did Lucia arrage for JP II to be shot on Our Ladies Feast Day?
 
My question is this, is it possible that all this could be Satan influenceing the church.(2 Cor.11:13-15)?:confused:
Satan the mimic that he is, probably is deceiving many into seeing what they really aren’t.

And when he gets them on the side of disobedience like Adam and Eve, then he’ll have a field day with them.

Which is the reason we should not preempt the Church, or as sheep walk ahead of the shepherd.

Stick to Church approved ones.
 
I have been a Catholic for 4 years and I still have struggles when it comes to Marian devotions and Mary sightings around the world. My question is this, is it possible that all this could be Satan influenceing the church.(2 Cor.11:13-15)?:confused:

If yes, please explain.

if no, please explain.
99% of reported apparitions are rejected by the Church. We don’t buy into so-called miracles as gullibly as our protestant brethren do (like that Todd Bentley guy).

As for the 1% that are not rejected, a Catholic is free to accept or reject them. Read your Catechism, paragraph 67:
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm
 
There are always going to be detractors for anything including the immaculate conception…How did Lucia arrange the miracle of the sun, seen by 70,000 people…I read 2 newspaper accounts by a press that was violently anti cleric

How do we know the people that are saying these things about Lucia are telling the truth? Why would the church protect a liar ,it has more to lose than to gain by doing so?

There has never been a shortage of revisionists of history and there never will be
…Did Lucia arrage for JP II to be shot on Our Ladies Feast Day?
red, I don’t think that you were paying attention. Seventy thousand people did not see that. The accounts are fabrications, and the newspapers cited have found no evidence that any such story ever appeared.

I suggest that you wait for such a day to occur. After the rain stops, look directly at the sun, if you are foolish enough, as the clouds dissipate, and tell me what you see. My guess is that it will be something akin to what SOME of the witnesses reported. Miracle or meteorology?

But then, I addressed my post to ‘the open-minded’.

Going back to our previous discussion, though, I continue to believe that the most significant factor against the apparitions is Lucia’s claim that the Lady directed her to give a message to the pope, which I documented for you as you requested.

She later claimed that Christ Himself had directed her similarly.

By what logic do you suggest that Christ and His Mother did not reveal themselves to the pope directly? Why would, or should, his holiness be more inclined to believe a young girl prone to hallucinations?
 
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