A question for converts...either into the Church or from it

[ErikaA]

Why believe one and not the other? Why believe any of it at all?

Because my husband and I made vows (promises) to one another. But suppose we didn’t. Suppose we were into wife swapping. Would we be wrong? Would we be hurting anyone?

Granted, it’s not my bag, but really, all this prudish talk of sexual morality is so foreign to me. I don’t get it. Jesus certainly didn’t refrain from cavorting with sinners or defending adulterers. And he equates lustful thoughts to adultery which tells me we’re all guilty of sexual impurity in some form or another. So why fret?

Of course, I think sex is good. I rather like it. And I don’t try to vault myself to a higher moral plane by repudiating it. Plus, I was pretty wild in college. On the other hand, I had a good friend who was a sincere(?) Catholic who used to give guys blow jobs in the parking lot of our favorite bar. Did she miss something in catechism?

 

[AgnosTheist]

The confusion caused by the notion that there are “essential” and “non-essential” doctrines. (Doctrine is doctrine. All of it is essential.)

remember the poll i made about mary? about half of the catholics who voted there thinks that the doctrine on mary’s perpetual virginity is not essential to salvation. the difference with protestants is that instead of 50%, they are 100% in agreement. thats just their point of view. but just about anything can become an issue to somebody that causes them to lose faith. for me one of them is too much devotion to mary. and i’m sure its also the reason for many apostate catholics. is it fair then to say that the rcc had created this as a ‘condition’ that leads peope to abandon their faith?

for me a ‘condition’ is a violation that the governing body chooses to ignore, cover up or justify. and both the catholic & protestant hierarchies are guilty of this. and this betrayal became reasons for apostasy.

The blatant man-made-ness of it - if the Pope was wrong, what makes Martin Luther/John Calvin/Simons Mennos/take your pick to be right? If they can make up a new religion based on their understanding of the Bible, then so can I.

arent you overreacting on this? nobody is saying that luther, calvin & simons are infallible.

The me-centered-ness of it. That you find yourself a religion that agrees with you. Because there is absolutely no way to know which one agrees with God. (God will understand - right?)

i think thats a secular point of view that is held both by cradle catholics and cradle protestants. logically it does make sense. there is no way to know for certain. its all about faith. its all about opinion.

 

[jmcrae]

remember the poll i made about mary? about half of the catholics who voted there thinks that the doctrine on mary’s perpetual virginity is not essential to salvation.

The beauty of the Catholic faith is that their opinion doesn’t matter. In any of the Protestant churches, they would take a vote and decide that Mary doesn’t matter, henceforth and forever more - even though everyone up until this moment in time thought she was important.

In the Catholic Church, doctrine doesn’t change according to a vote or an opinion poll. Mary will continue to be important and necessary to salvation, no matter what anyone’s private opinion of her may be.

arent you overreaction on this? nobody is saying that luther, calvin & simons are infallible.

That’s right. That’s why any Protestant can feel justified in starting up his or her own religion, and why we have literally thousands of tiny little Protestant religions springing up every single week.

I think thats a secular point of view that is held both by cradle catholics and cradle protestants. logically it does make sense. there is no way to know for certain. its all about faith. its all about opinion.

Well, the Catholic Church is based on history - but once you’ve thrown out history and say that history was “faked,” and then, because you can no longer prove anything, you’ve bought into the “anything goes” idea, then yeah - it’s all up to faith. And it no longer even matters what you put your faith in, as long as you can say that you have “faith.” You could name your car “Jesus” and put your faith in your car, and you’d be “saved” because you have “put your faith in Jesus.”

And then you can feel justified in becoming an atheist when it breaks down on a lonely road at 40 below zero.

 

[SolaFide]

It seems like when someone enters the Catholic Church, they have nothing bad to say about their old denomination. It also seems like when some leave the Catholic Church, they have nothing good to say about it. Why? I know not all former Catholics are like that, but there are many who are. What is the reason? I would like non-Catholics and converts to give some reasons before the cradle Catholics jump in. Why the venom?

I’ve seen many ex-Catholics get saved and have this “venom” you talk about. The reason is that they are mad. Mad because they read the Bible themselves and realize they’ve been lied to for years. That’s what at least 7 ex-Catholics have told me once they get saved…those exact words “We’ve been lied to for years”

 

[strngrnrth]

I’ve seen many ex-Catholics get saved and have this “venom” you talk about. The reason is that they are mad. Mad because they read the Bible themselves and realize they’ve been lied to for years. That’s what at least 7 ex-Catholics have told me once they get saved…those exact words “We’ve been lied to for years”

I feel that way about my years as a Protestant now that I’m a candidate. I’m probably not the only one in my class who feels that way at least sometimes.

 

[ralphinal]

Rebecca,
I am sorry that you had to suffer in order to grow. I am glad that you have found happiness with a God that truly forgives.

Erika,
Thank you for your honesty. The birth Control issue is a difficult one. I am not getting into that on this thread. I will say that yes, your friend missed something in Catholicism. It is far, far too common.

Sola,
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It is hard for me to see how the Church lies. I may be too close to the issue. It would explain some of the anger, though. My question is why don’t Protestants who become Catholic have the same anger with their former church?

 

[po18guy]

But I’ll tell you what tees people off about Catholicism. It’s not Catholic doctrine. It’s the artificial contraception stance.

All of Christendom was against contraception until about the 1920s. Then, something changed, and it wasn’t God. Contraception is pure conceit. It denies the reception of God’s love, and focuses on the self. Who tempted Christian leaders to finally accept contraception? Who tempts, period?

 

[ErikaA]

All of Christendom was against contraception until about the 1920s. Then, something changed, and it wasn’t God. Contraception is pure conceit. It denies the reception of God’s love, and focuses on the self.

But isn’t sex itself mostly self-concerned? I know this is way off topic, so I apologize for that, but seriously, isn’t it MOSTLY motivated by the personal desire for pleasure? Sure, I want to satisfy my husband’s desires and in that regard, sex can be truly selfless. (I believe in fact that oral sex is the most selfless sexual act) However, that he wants to reach the “higher ground” would signal that its his own pleasure he’s after ultimately. And ditto for me of course.

If we forbade things solely on the basis of their selfishness, there’s very little we couldn’t condemn. Even going into the missionary field, if done for the desire to grow closer to God, could be construed as selfish. Does not Jesus himself appeal to our selfish natures when he promises “rewards in Heaven”, paradise, etc?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

It seems like when someone enters the Catholic Church, they have nothing bad to say about their old denomination. It also seems like when some leave the Catholic Church, they have nothing good to say about it. Why? I know not all former Catholics are like that, but there are many who are. What is the reason? I would like non-Catholics and converts to give some reasons before the cradle Catholics jump in. Why the venom?

I’ve read plenty of criticisms, often very severe, of the churches to which converts to Catholicism making them used to belong.​

It may well be that ex-Catholics are doing no more than criticising the church of which they were formerly members. Conversion from a creed can be very traumatic - especially if it was strongly held; so it’s perhaps not surprising that ex-Protestants & ex-Catholics are apt to be harsh towards their former homes. I see no reason tothink the CC is being specially picked on; IMO, it is just one target among others of a familiar (if regrettable) psychological reflex: the new home is wonderful (it must be, otherwise conversion to it would have been pointless), therefore, the old home must be bad.

So our experiences don’t agree

 

[ralphinal]

I’ve read plenty of criticisms, often very severe, of the churches to which converts to Catholicism making them used to belong.​

It may well be that ex-Catholics are doing no more than criticising the church of which they were formerly members. Conversion from a creed can be very traumatic - especially if it was strongly held; so it’s perhaps not surprising that ex-Protestants & ex-Catholics are apt to be harsh towards their former homes. I see no reason tothink the CC is being specially picked on; IMO, it is just one target among others of a familiar (if regrettable) psychological reflex: the new home is wonderful (it must be, otherwise conversion to it would have been pointless), therefore, the old home must be bad.

So our experiences don’t agree

I do agree that the Church is not being targeted or picked on by this process. It is just an interesting dynamic that I, and many other posters and non-posters, have seen. Do you see a good deal of anti-protestant rhetoric from converts to Catholicism? I also agree that the conversion from a creed can be traumatic. It just seems to be an overwhelingly one directional thing.

 

[po18guy]

But isn’t sex itself mostly self-concerned? I know this is way off topic, so I apologize for that, but seriously, isn’t it MOSTLY motivated by the personal desire for pleasure?

Our lives are not our own. We neither gave life to ourselves, nor do we take it back at the end. It is a gift of God. Such as it is with reproduction. Who gave us that desire for pleasure? It is the same One who gives us the pleasure which is the object of the desire. This points to a larger purpose than just the self. Just as raising children points to a larger purpose that the self.

Contraception and abortion point only to self, and allow us to emulate the doomed civilizations of the past, well documented in scripture. When we separate God, who gave us our lives and our bodies, from what we do with and to our lives and bodies, we err.

If life is not ours to give or keep, then sexual relations just might not be ours, either.

 

[po18guy]

I do agree that the Church is not being targeted or picked on by this process. It is just an interesting dynamic that I, and many other posters and non-posters, have seen. Do you see a good deal of anti-protestant rhetoric from converts to Catholicism? I also agree that the conversion from a creed can be traumatic. It just seems to be an overwhelingly one directional thing.

Could it be the emotion that is associated with rejection of the truth? And, by “truth” I mean the fullness of truth, since nearly all faiths have at least some truths in them. It is a variation of living in denial, and that is not pretty, either.

Christ’s peace.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Because my husband and I made vows (promises) to one another. But suppose we didn’t. Suppose we were into wife swapping. Would we be wrong? Would we be hurting anyone?

Granted, it’s not my bag, but really, all this prudish talk of sexual morality is so foreign to me. I don’t get it. Jesus certainly didn’t refrain from cavorting with sinners or defending adulterers. And he equates lustful thoughts to adultery which tells me we’re all guilty of sexual impurity in some form or another. So why fret?

Of course, I think sex is good. I rather like it. And I don’t try to vault myself to a higher moral plane by repudiating it. Plus, I was pretty wild in college. On the other hand, I had a good friend who was a sincere(?) Catholic who used to give guys blow jobs in the parking lot of our favorite bar. Did she miss something in catechism?

I understand completely. And no, I am not a prude. I like sex, a whole lot.

I am not a Catholic, I am an inquirer in RCIA so I can’t really tell you anything definitive about Catholicism itself, as I am still learning. That is why my question. It wasn’t a slam or anything. Just, how people think and come to their beliefs interests me. And sometimes it becomes a learning experience for myself.

I have enough experience though and have been down some dark paths. Sex is self gratifying, of course, but there is a line in there somewhere, where self gratification can turn into the using of a sexual partner. Can this happen in a marriage? Certainly can and does.

From what I have read re: the CC stance on artificial contraception, it kind of falls into this. I think. I am still trying to work it out myself. But, it looks to me that the CC views the use of artificial contraception as crossing that line. Where sexual gratification becomes an act of “using” another person, rather than loving them. In the strongest sense of the word, love. Artificial contraception says, in its use, that the sex act is for reason and one reason alone, self gratification. And the CC is saying it is possible and preferable to keep on the other side of that line.

Possibly? Still trying to get it clear myself.

Take care.

Rebecca

 

[ErikaA]

Our lives are not our own. We neither gave life to ourselves, nor do we take it back at the end. It is a gift of God. Such as it is with reproduction. Who gave us that desire for pleasure? It is the same One who gives us the pleasure which is the object of the desire. This points to a larger purpose than just the self. Just as raising children points to a larger purpose that the self.

Contraception and abortion point only to self, and allow us to emulate the doomed civilizations of the past, well documented in scripture. When we separate God, who gave us our lives and our bodies, from what we do with and to our lives and bodies, we err.

If life is not ours to give or keep, then sexual relations just might not be ours, either.

But then why stop with the discussion of sexual morality? You could apply this logic to smoking, overeating, drinking, gossiping, etc. Which of course Paul does (okay not smoking specifically). So we are all guilty of satisfying our own cravings without thinking about God’s role in it all. Are we not?

With that said, I think He expects us to love ourselves. After all, when Jesus tells us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, he assumes (rightly) that we love ourselves. Jesus appeals to our self love. He doesn’t admonish us to stop loving ourselves. It’s how we go about loving ourselves that you and I may differ on. You may think if I do not adhere strictly to the RCC’s teaching on artificial contraception, that I’m not loving myself. But if I find that teaching contrary to my own conscience and reason, then I would be a hypocrite to adopt it as my own. At least that’s how I see it.

 

[jmcrae]

You may think if I do not adhere strictly to the RCC’s teaching on artificial contraception, that I’m not loving myself.

Why were doctors sued, then when they did this to a group of mentally handicapped people? Why was Hitler denounced for doing the same thing to Jews and other “undesirables”?

If doing it to other people is “bad” then how can doing it to yourself be “loving”?

 

[homewardbound]

I’m gonna be weird and answer the OP.

I like one comment someone made about how most Catholics who leave are lapsed anyway and most Protestants who convert are already strong in their faith and are just expandinf upon that faith. I couldn’t agree more.

I will forever be grateful to my mother for being raised Christian. She did her job to the best of her ability. Have I been hurt by people in the Baptist faith? YES. More than most. I was used and sexually molested and I lost my faith completely for most of my youth because of people who were supposedly men of God. Am I bitter? Not anymore. And I was never angry at the denomination or church or people themselves. Only at those individuals who hurt me.

I can blame no one but myself for falling away from God and blaming Him for my troubles. I came to Catholicism through much study and prayer and discernment. I would venture most people who leave Catholicism do not leave by studying their own faith and others and weighing them against each other. They just leave because they get bitter about something or other and decide to blame the Church for it all. Thats the difference and why it seems most used-to-be Catholics are so angry, and most converts to Catholicism are so happy.

We found the truth. They left it behind. Who is going to be the most angry? The ones leaving God’s truth of course!