A Question for LDS

[ParkerD]

Why does God have to have a body for you to know and do these things?

Nice testimony bearing.

And as usual, you didn’t answer what I asked. I’m beginning to wonder if you are able to comprehend written English.

Rebecca,
I don’t know how a Catholic feels about their body. I feel a sacred kinship with Heavenly Father that strengthens my relationship with Him, not yours. You can project anything you want and think you know my feelings, but here is a news flash for you–I own my own feelings. You don’t know them at all.

I tried to answer your question as best I understood what you asked. I don’t have any feeling at all that there is a “problem” with Catholic belief in the Trinity, for them to worship and get answers from God.

But you’re right–we don’t seem to be able to communicate here. It’s probably pointless to try, especially since although I majored in English you don’t think I comprehend the language. I suppose that you would get the better of me in Spanish, also.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I know this. But do you pray to Jesus?

          NOT UNLESS HE APPEARS IN MY PRESENCE (which hasn't happened)

You pray to the Holy Spirit?

IF BY THE WORD “PRAY” YOU MEAN “TALK TO HIM AS THOUGH HE IS PRESENT AND CAN INFLUENCE MY LIFE BY PROVIDING GUIDANCE,” THEN YES. If you mean the Lord’s prayer kind of prayer, then “no.”

These are all good internal types of worships. Any external?

If by “external” you mean, that which could be heard by others or seen by others, then NO–we pray to Heavenly Father.

 

[amontoya]

If by “external” you mean, that which could be heard by others or seen by others, then NO–we pray to Heavenly Father.

Is it official LDS doctrine that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit should be worshipped externally, unless you are in their physical presence? Could you be in the Holy Spirit’s physical presence, since He is only Spirit?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
I don’t know how a Catholic feels about their body. I feel a sacred kinship with Heavenly Father that strengthens my relationship with Him, not yours. You can project anything you want and think you know my feelings, but here is a news flash for you–I own my own feelings. You don’t know them at all.

I tried to answer your question as best I understood what you asked. I don’t have any feeling at all that there is a “problem” with Catholic belief in the Trinity, for them to worship and get answers from God.

But you’re right–we don’t seem to be able to communicate here. It’s probably pointless to try, especially since although I majored in English you don’t think I comprehend the language. I suppose that you would get the better of me in Spanish, also.

I said nothing about feelings, Mr. Projectionist.

It’s alright ParkerD, I’m not trying to beat you up. Trying to get you to answer some questions is all. You answer them as though I did ask, “How do you feel about…”, but if that is your answer, then that is your answer.

 

[dianaiad]

How is it that a body is required for you to attain godhood, but for Jesus and the Holy Spirit it is not?

Why do LDS have such a problem with the Christian belief that God the Father is spirit?

We wouldn’t have a problem if He were just Spirit.

But He isn’t. (shrug) It’s not a problem, Rebecca. It just…is.

but then you too believe that God has a body of flesh and bones, don’t you? After all, isn’t Christ God? Doesn’t He have such a body?

If He doesn’t, what happened to it? There isn’t anywhere in the scriptures that say He died again, or left it in some airport baggage room. He died, He was resurrected; He has a body.

So God has one.

Why are you so adamantly against that idea? Where in any scripture or writing or anywhere at all is there something that says that Christ LOST it again?

 

[dianaiad]

How do you worship them?

Do you pray to them?

We pray to God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ (Who, if you remember, "bought us with a price) through the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We wouldn’t have a problem if He were just Spirit.

God the Father is Spirit. He isn’t anything else.

But He isn’t. (shrug) It’s not a problem, Rebecca. It just…is.

He is.

If it isn’t a problem, then why do you not believe in the ONE True God?

but then you too believe that God has a body of flesh and bones, don’t you? After all, isn’t Christ God? Doesn’t He have such a body?

Jesus is God but He is not God the Father.

If He doesn’t, what happened to it? There isn’t anywhere in the scriptures that say He died again, or left it in some airport baggage room. He died, He was resurrected; He has a body.

So God has one.

Why are you so adamantly against that idea? Where in any scripture or writing or anywhere at all is there something that says that Christ LOST it again?

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, I know this. But do you pray to Jesus?

You pray to the Holy Spirit?

These are all good internal types of worships. Any external?

Hmmn.

I see that the text of the Rosary contains one prayer to Jesus, two to God the Father, and three to Mary.None to the Holy Ghost and two creedal statements.

If you pray the entire rosary, evidently you will say something like 54 ‘Hail Mary’s,’ 7 “Our Father’s,” 8 creedal statements (“I believe in God” and “Glory be to the Father”), 6 prayers to Jesus (“Fatima Prayer”) and one “Memorare” . There are some “announce…” but if they included the text I didn’t see what it was.

So…your ratio of prayers is 4 to one in favor of Mary. You see nothing at all wrong with this. Given what I understand about Marian devotion, I don’t either–except that it doesn’t leave you any room to criticize anybody else’s ratio of prayers to Whomever. ALL of our prayers go to God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ. ALL of them. ALL of our ordinances are done in the name of God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and by the power of the Holy Ghost.

So to see you criticize us about Who our prayers are addressed to is…well, a bit much.

 

[dianaiad]

God the Father is Spirit. He isn’t anything else.

He is.

If it isn’t a problem, then why do you not believe in the ONE True God?

Jesus is God but He is not God the Father.

What in the world are you talking about?

(throwing hands up…)

This is quite true; Jesus is God but He is not God the Father.

Unless of course a MORMON says exactly this, and then you get all huffy about it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hmmn.

I see that the text of the Rosary contains one prayer to Jesus, two to God the Father, and three to Mary.None to the Holy Ghost and two creedal statements.

If you pray the entire rosary, evidently you will say something like 54 ‘Hail Mary’s,’ 7 “Our Father’s,” 8 creedal statements (“I believe in God” and “Glory be to the Father”), 6 prayers to Jesus (“Fatima Prayer”) and one “Memorare” . There are some “announce…” but if they included the text I didn’t see what it was.

So…your ratio of prayers is 4 to one in favor of Mary. You see nothing at all wrong with this. Given what I understand about Marian devotion, I don’t either–except that it doesn’t leave you any room to criticize anybody else’s ratio of prayers to Whomever. ALL of our prayers go to God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ. ALL of them. ALL of our ordinances are done in the name of God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and by the power of the Holy Ghost.

So to see you criticize us about Who our prayers are addressed to is…well, a bit much.

You seem to be under the erroneous belief that the Rosary is the only prayer we pray. We have some very beautiful prayers that are to the Holy Spirit, directly. We believe that when we pray to the Holy Spirit, God the Father hears them as well. When we pray to God the Father, Jesus hears them too. etc.etc.etc. When we pray with Mary, we are praying to God. So yeah, all of our prayers, are to God.

I’m not criticizing. Just helping to get the clear picture out to non-LDS who know nothing about LDS. Especially when terms are being used that have a different meaning. Such as “worship”. Catholic worship is very external (internal too of course). We worship with all of our senses. To say that you worship Jesus, is not the same as a Catholic saying we worship Jesus. Prayers, said aloud, alone and together as a community, are a very important and integral part of our worship.

 

[ParkerD]

Is it official LDS doctrine that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit should be worshipped externally, unless you are in their physical presence? Could you be in the Holy Spirit’s physical presence, since He is only Spirit?

Amontoya,
Hi. Answer to the first question is Yes. Answer to the second question is that a spirit body would have the appearance of a body if we were in their presence and we had pure enough eyes to see them. Spirit is “refined matter”: “All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;” (D & C 131:8)

 

[RebeccaJ]

(throwing hands up…)

This is quite true; Jesus is God but He is not God the Father.

Unless of course a MORMON says exactly this, and then you get all huffy about it.

I don’t get huffy, just want to make sure that YOU understand the difference.

You believe Jesus is A God. Not THE God.

It is a very important difference to understand. Not something trivial that I’m using to pick on Mormons.

 

[Stephen168]

Just helping to get the clear picture out to non-LDS who know nothing about LDS. Especially when terms are being used that have a different meaning. Such as “worship”.

I do appreciate it

 

[amontoya]

Amontoya,
Hi. Answer to the first question is Yes. Answer to the second question is that a spirit body would have the appearance of a body if we were in their presence and we had pure enough eyes to see them. Spirit is “refined matter”: “All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;” (D & C 131:8)

So, why would the people of the Old Testament externally worship Jehovah(Jesus) in the Temple? Also, the Temple was used for worship of Jehovah as He directed, so if Jesus is Jehovah, why would He refer to the Temple as, “my Father’s house?”

 

[ParkerD]

So, why would the people of the Old Testament externally worship Jehovah(Jesus) in the Temple? Also, the Temple was used for worship of Jehovah as He directed, so if Jesus is Jehovah, why would He refer to the Temple as, “my Father’s house?”

Amontoya,

Looking for the context of the scriptures you are referring to, I only find the expression “my Father’s house” in John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Here are verses where Christ talked about the temple:
Luke 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Perhaps you are more familiar than I am with the Jewish temple rites from the Old Testament. Did they also refer to Elohim?

As far as LDS are concerned, the temple is the house of the Father and the house of the Son. But Jesus has the particular position in the Godhead whereby He functions as our Advocate with our communication with Heavenly Father. He is our Advocate with the Father.

I think some Old Testament Jews understood whom they were referring to when they referred to Elohim or whom they were referring to when they referred to Jehovah, and some didn’t. I think Moses clearly understood the distinction.

 

[Tmaque]

We wouldn’t have a problem if He were just Spirit.

But He isn’t. (shrug) It’s not a problem, Rebecca. It just…is.

but then you too believe that God has a body of flesh and bones, don’t you? After all, isn’t Christ God? Doesn’t He have such a body?

If He doesn’t, what happened to it? There isn’t anywhere in the scriptures that say He died again, or left it in some airport baggage room. He died, He was resurrected; He has a body.

So God has one.

Why are you so adamantly against that idea? Where in any scripture or writing or anywhere at all is there something that says that Christ LOST it again?

“it just…is” Oh! Well, that clears it up.

Let me ask you a question. How could God create the physical universe if he was already part of that physical universe? Space, time, and matter didn’t exist UNTIL the universe existed. If God the Father has a physical body he could not have created the universe.
What am I missing?

 

[Tmaque]

Amontoya,

Looking for the context of the scriptures you are referring to, I only find the expression “my Father’s house” in John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Here are verses where Christ talked about the temple:
Luke 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Christ was quoting scripture here. When he says “my house” he’s restating God’s words, not his own. Jews worshiped one God. They had no concept of Jesus as God, nor did they think God as a “father” in the sense we do now. That’s why Christ was killed, because he said we were children of God and he was the true Son of God.

 

[Tmaque]

Amontoya,
Hi. Answer to the first question is Yes. Answer to the second question is that a spirit body would have the appearance of a body if we were in their presence and we had pure enough eyes to see them. Spirit is “refined matter”: “All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;” (D & C 131:8)

Catholics do not believe that spirit is "refined matter’. We believe it is wholly other and not part of our physical universe in any way. God is not matter. He is pure mind.

 

[dianaiad]

You seem to be under the erroneous belief that the Rosary is the only prayer we pray. We have some very beautiful prayers that are to the Holy Spirit, directly. We believe that when we pray to the Holy Spirit, God the Father hears them as well. When we pray to God the Father, Jesus hears them too. etc.etc.etc. When we pray with Mary, we are praying to God. So yeah, all of our prayers, are to God.

I’m not criticizing. Just helping to get the clear picture out to non-LDS who know nothing about LDS. Especially when terms are being used that have a different meaning. Such as “worship”. Catholic worship is very external (internal too of course). We worship with all of our senses. To say that you worship Jesus, is not the same as a Catholic saying we worship Jesus. Prayers, said aloud, alone and together as a community, are a very important and integral part of our worship.

It may not be the only prayer you pray, and I’ll accept this correction from you regarding the number and types. The problem is that you are representing LDS as somehow dismissing Jesus the Christ because we pray to God THROUGH Him rather than pray directly to Christ, Himself. Perhaps that’s understandable, given what you just said about a prayer to Mary being a prayer to God; since you do not believe that asking Mary to intercede for you is actually worshiping her, then perhaps you see our praying to the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ is very much the same sort of thing as your plea for intercession with God from Mary.

But it’s not.

You see, we believe that when Jesus sacrificed Himself, and redeemed us, he really did “buy us with a price…” We are His. He bought us, with that sacrifice, from His Father…so anything that we ask of God MUST be done through Jesus, as He is the Only Path, the Way, the Truth and the Light.

You know, all those important words. If Jesus were not equal to His Father in every way, as God, He could not have done this…so in praying to the Father through His Son is worshiping both of Them. It is acknowledging the great Price that He paid to redeem us.

Y’know, we don’t all have to say exactly the same things in the same way for God to hear us; He hears our hearts, even if we don’t all get the words just so.

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t get huffy, just want to make sure that YOU understand the difference.

You believe Jesus is A God. Not THE God.

It is a very important difference to understand. Not something trivial that I’m using to pick on Mormons.

Not quite.

Rebecca, someone who didn’t understand the nuances could, with very similar reasoning, say that you worship Mary. After all, you DO pray to her.

I know that you do not worship Mary, so don’t get excited. I know the difference between asking her to intercede for you with God, and worshiping her–even when that difference is very, very thin in some folks.

In the same vein, it would be nice if you understood that there is a difference between the way we think of Jesus as God and the way YOU claim we do. We don’t believe that Jesus is A God. We believe He is God. We believe the Father is God. We believe that the Holy Ghost is God. Not “GODS,” “GOD.” They are absolutely separate individuals, we believe, sharing the same purpose and goals—and that thing called ‘Godhead.’

Far more separate than modalists. Somewhat more separate than most trinitarians. But it is “God,” a quality/something that these Persons share…a Godhead. Not 'Gods."

Someone likened it to a ‘job title.’ It’s as dumb an analogy as the clover leaf for the trinity, but there is something in it, I suppose…just as two people can share the job of ‘secretary’ to the CEO of a company–one works in the morning, the other in the afternoon. They may both be "Secretary,’ but there is only one job.

We believe that “God” is more than that, but certainly nothing like the modalists–or most trinitarians.

The problem, of course, is words…and the intent of the speaker. You want to characterize it as "you believe that Jesus is A God, not God,’ because saying it that way makes a point for you.

But it’s not quite accurate, not to the extent you are presenting it, anyway.