A Question for LDS

[dianaiad]

“it just…is” Oh! Well, that clears it up.

Let me ask you a question. How could God create the physical universe if he was already part of that physical universe? Space, time, and matter didn’t exist UNTIL the universe existed. If God the Father has a physical body he could not have created the universe.
What am I missing?

You are missing the part, I think, that your argument is as much against God in any form, spirit or not, as it is against God having a physical body.

After all, if God is apart from the universe He created, then it doesn’t much matter what He is comprised of, does it?

 

[RebeccaJ]

You see, we believe that when Jesus sacrificed Himself, and redeemed us, he really did “buy us with a price…” We are His. He bought us, with that sacrifice, from His Father…so anything that we ask of God MUST be done through Jesus, as He is the Only Path, the Way, the Truth and the Light.

Yes, we believe the same, and believe that we should praise Him day and night. Including with prayers.

My view is, you are missing out on what it means to be Christian, in this fear you (the collective you) have against praying to the One to whom you Belong.

You know, all those important words. If Jesus were not equal to His Father in every way, as God, He could not have done this…so in praying to the Father through His Son is worshiping both of Them. It is acknowledging the great Price that He paid to redeem us.

So tell Him directly. It seems kind of strange that you say, “Father, thank, you for the Sacrifice of your Son, in the Name of Your Son.”

Y’know, we don’t all have to say exactly the same things in the same way for God to hear us; He hears our hearts, even if we don’t all get the words just so.

Are you referring to Catholic written prayers? Catholics talk to God, just to say what is in our hearts. We like our traditional prayers too, that we say in communion, through the ages.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not quite.

Rebecca, someone who didn’t understand the nuances could, with very similar reasoning, say that you worship Mary. After all, you DO pray to her.

I know that you do not worship Mary, so don’t get excited. I know the difference between asking her to intercede for you with God, and worshiping her–even when that difference is very, very thin in some folks.

In the same vein, it would be nice if you understood that there is a difference between the way we think of Jesus as God and the way YOU claim we do. We don’t believe that Jesus is A God. We believe He is God. We believe the Father is God. We believe that the Holy Ghost is God. Not “GODS,” “GOD.” They are absolutely separate individuals, we believe, sharing the same purpose and goals—and that thing called ‘Godhead.’

I know very well that when LDS say, GOD, they are referring to God the Father.

When a Christian says GOD, I know very well they are referring to the Holy Trinity. One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I’m sorry, but I don’t believe you. I think it is good that you believe this, as it brings you closer to understanding the true nature of God. But no, it is not what your church teaches. And it is not how Mormons think.

From the Bible dictionary at LDS.org:

"When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is** the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God**…]**The Holy Ghost is also a God **and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc. "

From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

“Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2).”

Far more separate than modalists. Somewhat more separate than most trinitarians. But it is “God,” a quality/something that these Persons share…a Godhead. Not 'Gods."

Separate altogether, complete, unequivocally, is LDS belief. Except for “purpose”, you believe that is united because Jesus has absolute obedience to the Father.

Someone likened it to a ‘job title.’ It’s as dumb an analogy as the clover leaf for the trinity, but there is something in it, I suppose…just as two people can share the job of ‘secretary’ to the CEO of a company–one works in the morning, the other in the afternoon. They may both be "Secretary,’ but there is only one job.

God is not a job title.

We believe that “God” is more than that, but certainly nothing like the modalists–or most trinitarians.

I don’t understand what you mean here.

The problem, of course, is words…and the intent of the speaker. You want to characterize it as "you believe that Jesus is A God, not God,’ because saying it that way makes a point for you.

But it’s not quite accurate, not to the extent you are presenting it, anyway.

No, it isn’t about points. It’s about what is Truth, and what is not.

Perhaps that is why you reply as you do, with a washed over version of Mormonism, almost wholly made up. Trying to erase “points”?

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

You seem to be under the erroneous belief that the Rosary is the only prayer we pray. We have some very beautiful prayers that are to the Holy Spirit, directly. We believe that when we pray to the Holy Spirit, God the Father hears them as well. When we pray to God the Father, Jesus hears them too. etc.etc.etc. When we pray with Mary, we are praying to God. So yeah, all of our prayers, are to God.

I’m not criticizing. Just helping to get the clear picture out to non-LDS who know nothing about LDS. Especially when terms are being used that have a different meaning. Such as “worship”. Catholic worship is very external (internal too of course). We worship with all of our senses. To say that you worship Jesus, is not the same as a Catholic saying we worship Jesus. Prayers, said aloud, alone and together as a community, are a very important and integral part of our worship.

I totally agree Becca!! We make up the Body of Christ. Mary, the saints and all of us in His Church. When we pray to Mary for intersession, we are praying from within Jesus’ body to God! I love that analogy…

 

[RebeccaJ]

I totally agree Becca!! We make up the Body of Christ. Mary, the saints and all of us in His Church. When we pray to Mary for intersession, we are praying from within Jesus’ body to God! I love that analogy…

I love our belief too, that when more than two of us are gathered in Christ’s name, we are all gathered together. I think of it often at Mass. All of us, everywhere, the living and the dead, praying together. The Litany of Saints, at Easter Vigil, all of us, everywhere, at every Easter Vigil, praying together. I think it is pretty darn amazing!

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, we believe the same, and believe that we should praise Him day and night. Including with prayers.

My view is, you are missing out on what it means to be Christian, in this fear you (the collective you) have against praying to the One to whom you Belong.

So tell Him directly. It seems kind of strange that you say, “Father, thank, you for the Sacrifice of your Son, in the Name of Your Son.”

Are you referring to Catholic written prayers? Catholics talk to God, just to say what is in our hearts. We like our traditional prayers too, that we say in communion, through the ages.

It’s not ‘fear,’ Rebecca. It’s simply the way we pray and the way we worship…and I was referring to all prayer, not simply ‘written’ prayers. As strange as it may seem to you that we do not pray directly to Jesus, it is as strange to us that people would recite words written by someone else as personal prayers to God. “Strange” being in the eye of the beholder. The intent is in the heart of the one doing the praying, and I think that whatever the form or the address, if the mind and heart are actually praying, not rattling off a memorized set of sentences, then God will hear.

When I looked up the rosary to see what was recited when you pray it, I found many sites. Most of them have, along with instructions on how to do it, illustrations of numbered knots, or beads, with the proper prayers assigned to each number. Almost all of them have some form of the following reminder: do not mindlessly recite these words, but meditate upon them as you say the prayers so that it is not mechanical and superficial.

Mormons do believe that it’s harder to become mechanical and superficial if you don’t have a memorized prayer at hand; if you have to come up with your own words every time–if you have to think about what you are saying.

At the end of it, though, it’s the attitude of the person doing the praying that determines whether it is a prayer or a mindless recital of endless words to no purpose; two people may be standing together, saying the same words…and one is praying, and the other not.

I’m rather certain that God knows which is which.

 

[dianaiad]

I know very well that when LDS say, GOD, they are referring to God the Father.

When a Christian says GOD, I know very well they are referring to the Holy Trinity. One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I’m sorry, but I don’t believe you. I think it is good that you believe this, as it brings you closer to understanding the true nature of God. But no, it is not what your church teaches. And it is not how Mormons think.

There you go with the ‘true Scott’ thing.

I’m a Mormon. Therefore if I “think” or “believe” something, then obviously Mormons “think” or ‘believe’ something. Perhaps not ALL Mormons do, but I do, and I’m a Mormon; therefore…

You may not like the way I am stumbling through an explanation of the LDS idea of the Godhead, but my fumbling explanation is still far more accurate than your bald assertion that we believe that Jesus is A God, not “God.”

There is a huge difference here between being a Member of the Godhead, and being an entirely separate God. We know the difference. We’re the ones who believe it and understand it (in as far as mere humans can understand it) and we get to tell you what those beliefs are. You do not get to tell us, and you do NOT get to tell me that I’m no true Mormon because what I tell you of our beliefs disagrees with your claims regarding our beliefs. After all, if your Christian fundamentalist neighbor hands you a pamphlet claiming that you sell indulgences, and you disagree with that description, does that make you 'no true Catholic?"

Think about it. You are no longer LDS. You are Catholic. That means that you can be a primary source regarding Catholicism, but only secondary source regarding Mormonism; any Mormon trumps you, just as any Catholic would trump me if I said something about Catholicism that a Catholic disagreed with.

 

[majick275]

There you go with the ‘true Scott’ thing.

I’m a Mormon. Therefore if I “think” or “believe” something, then obviously Mormons “think” or ‘believe’ something. Perhaps not ALL Mormons do, but I do, and I’m a Mormon; therefore…

You may not like the way I am stumbling through an explanation of the LDS idea of the Godhead, but my fumbling explanation is still far more accurate than your bald assertion that we believe that Jesus is A God, not “God.”

There is a huge difference here between being a Member of the Godhead, and being an entirely separate God. We know the difference. We’re the ones who believe it and understand it (in as far as mere humans can understand it) and we get to tell you what those beliefs are. You do not get to tell us, and you do NOT get to tell me that I’m no true Mormon because what I tell you of our beliefs disagrees with your claims regarding our beliefs. After all, if your Christian fundamentalist neighbor hands you a pamphlet claiming that you sell indulgences, and you disagree with that description, does that make you 'no true Catholic?"

Think about it. You are no longer LDS. You are Catholic. That means that you can be a primary source regarding Catholicism, but only secondary source regarding Mormonism; any Mormon trumps you, just as any Catholic would trump me if I said something about Catholicism that a Catholic disagreed with.

this is hilarious. we have the writings of mormons prophets as well as mormon “scriptures” and the temple ceremony to describe to us the mormon doctrine on deity. we do not need any fundamentalist pamphlets to show that mormons believe in an infinite number of Gods, many of which are “higher up” than the ONE they worship (elohim). it is also obvious from mormon sources that Jesus, in mormon doctrine, is A God who is subordinate to Elohim (and by extension those who are above elohim). Mormons don’t really WORSHIP christ either as they do NOT pray to him, making the distinction that only Elohim is to be addressed directly. (despite the BoM examples of people praying to Jesus). the Role and nature of the Holy Spirit in mormon doctrine is even less defined. he is only invoked at baptism and has been been described in mormon scripture as not even being a separate person. (while that section has since been removed from the canon it is still referred to in mormon scripture as a good source for teaching)

This is a perfect example of why mormons have such low credibility. they either don’t know their own doctrine (because they have no trained clergy to teach it and have no authoritative catechism equivalent to refer to) OR they won’t discuss it (Temple) OR they deliberately obscure (milk before meat…don’t scare away the investigators with “deep doctrine”). this has been exacerbated in recent times due to a conscious effort to focus on very basic doctrines to appear more mainstream. those who were active mormons in the 70’s remember very different lessons and certainly had a different temple experience.

 

[Tmaque]

You are missing the part, I think, that your argument is as much against God in any form, spirit or not, as it is against God having a physical body.

After all, if God is apart from the universe He created, then it doesn’t much matter what He is comprised of, does it?

It’s not IF God was apart from what he created. It’s he MUST be apart from what he created. You can’t be a 2x4 in a wall and claim you created the house. You can’t “create” yourself. Are you “part” of your house? No, you’re free to come and go because you’re not part of it. If God were made of matter he would be part of the universe. Matter cannot exist outside of space and time. If God were matter he could not have created the universe.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Think about it. You are no longer LDS. You are Catholic. That means that you can be a primary source regarding Catholicism, but only secondary source regarding Mormonism; any Mormon trumps you, just as any Catholic would trump me if I said something about Catholicism that a Catholic disagreed with.

I gave you primary sources Diana. From the lds website. I was raised LDS. I had more than 20 years of lds teachings, every day for four of those years. It isn’t about trumping. It is about what is truth and what is not.

Are you going to address what your church teaches compared to what you are saying?

God/gods?

The God/a god?

Do you need more primary sources?

 

[ParkerD]

Majik and others,
The discussion here about “subordinate” relationships doesn’t show an understanding of “omniscience” and “omnipotence”. These words mean “all knowledge” and “all power”. God having all knowledge and all power means that God the Father and God the Son act in exactly the same way because their “all knowledge” gives Them the correct vantage point to provide unconditional love in a perfect way. One does exactly what the Other would do. They have the “same mind” not meaning they are one Being, but that to hear from one would be exactly the same as to hear from the other. That is what “all knowledge” and “all truth” mean. They know all things. They act in exactly the same way, because of this.

For you to think one is subordinate to the other shows “you don’t know what you’re talking about.”

 

[majick275]

Majik and others,
The discussion here about “subordinate” relationships doesn’t show an understanding of “omniscience” and “omnipotence”. These words mean “all knowledge” and “all power”. God having all knowledge and all power means that God the Father and God the Son act in exactly the same way because their “all knowledge” gives Them the correct vantage point to provide unconditional love in a perfect way. One does exactly what the Other would do. They have the “same mind” not meaning they are one Being, but that to hear from one would be exactly the same as to hear from the other. That is what “all knowledge” and “all truth” mean. They know all things. They act in exactly the same way, because of this.

For you to think one is subordinate to the other shows “you don’t know what you’re talking about.”

no it shows a knowledge of LDS scriptures and eternal progression. the son OBEYS the father from the council in heaven during the pre-existence on. you might want to read lecture 5 of the lectures on faith regarding the “shared mind”. I think the temple ceremony gives a very clear depiction of the subordinate relationship.

 

[amontoya]

Amontoya,

Looking for the context of the scriptures you are referring to, I only find the expression “my Father’s house” in John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Here are verses where Christ talked about the temple:
Luke 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

The verse I was referring to is Luke 2:49, when Jesus’ parents find Him in the Temple He says, “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”

Perhaps you are more familiar than I am with the Jewish temple rites from the Old Testament. Did they also refer to Elohim?

As far as LDS are concerned, the temple is the house of the Father and the house of the Son. But Jesus has the particular position in the Godhead whereby He functions as our Advocate with our communication with Heavenly Father. He is our Advocate with the Father.

I think some Old Testament Jews understood whom they were referring to when they referred to Elohim or whom they were referring to when they referred to Jehovah, and some didn’t. I think Moses clearly understood the distinction.

When building the Tabernacle, which prefigures the Temple, it is the LORD who directs the Isrealites on how to worship Him. In the Bible, the word LORD written in all caps stands in for the Hebrew YHWH, which has been translated as Jehovah. LDS believe that this Jehovah is Jesus. My point is that, since the Jehovah/Jesus God of the Old Testament commands people to worship Him, how does that coincide with the official LDS doctrine that Jesus must not be worshipped outside of His physical presence?

Also, why is it that in the Old Testament, we see Jehovah(Jesus) telling people to build a Temple and offer sacrifices to Him, to worship Him, and to have no other Gods before Him? Why does He not direct worship to Elohim instead? If, as the LDS church claims, every prophet from the beginning received the same “Gospel of Jesus Christ,” and as you say, “Moses understood the distinction,” why did he instruct the Isrealites to worship Jehovah(Jesus) instead of Elohim?

 

[Tmaque]

I may be wrong but it seems that LDS theology continues to evolve. Trying to get a straight answer is like nailing Jello to a wall. I think that’s why the LDS Church doesn’t have a Teaching or Catechism. They don’t want to get locked into any of their dogmas. It also seems like the beliefs are too varied in the LDS Church. Geographical differences in doctrine regarding the nature of God seems to be widespread.

I suspect in time LDS doctrine will evolve into a true trinitarian form. I also suspect they will eventually claim that the BOM is allegorical and not meant to be read in a historical way. They keep dropping objectionable and intellectually indefensible doctrines like polygamy, Africans and priesthood, the belief that the Lamanites(BOM peoples) are the primary ancestors of the native Americans, and on and on. I think they will continue to change as time goes until they end up with doctrines very similar to mainstream protestantism.

 

[Jerusha]

I agree with you. There are many passages in the BOM that prophesy that religions similar to Mormonism as it is now practiced will come to an end. Of course, that is natural with religions founded on the shifting sands.

 

[ParkerD]

The verse I was referring to is Luke 2:49, when Jesus’ parents find Him in the Temple He says, “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”

When building the Tabernacle, which prefigures the Temple, it is the LORD who directs the Isrealites on how to worship Him. In the Bible, the word LORD written in all caps stands in for the Hebrew YHWH, which has been translated as Jehovah. LDS believe that this Jehovah is Jesus. My point is that, since the Jehovah/Jesus God of the Old Testament commands people to worship Him, how does that coincide with the official LDS doctrine that Jesus must not be worshipped outside of His physical presence?

Also, why is it that in the Old Testament, we see Jehovah(Jesus) telling people to build a Temple and offer sacrifices to Him, to worship Him, and to have no other Gods before Him? Why does He not direct worship to Elohim instead? If, as the LDS church claims, every prophet from the beginning received the same “Gospel of Jesus Christ,” and as you say, “Moses understood the distinction,” why did he instruct the Isrealites to worship Jehovah(Jesus) instead of Elohim?

Please see the following passage from Exodus 6:
1 Then the Lord said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land.
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord.

It appears to me that Jehovah can speak for the Father because He has the same authority and the same omniscience and will as the Father, but that He identified Himself to Moses as Jehovah and explained that Moses was getting more understanding than He had given to Abraham. All Abraham knew was that “God Almighty” was speaking to Him. Moses knew that Jehovah was speaking to him.

 

[ParkerD]

Amontoya,
Also, I find no passage of scripture where Moses instructs the Israelites to worship Jehovah. To what passage are you referring?

 

[amontoya]

It appears to me that Jehovah can speak for the Father because He has the same authority and the same omniscience and will as the Father, but that He identified Himself to Moses as Jehovah and explained that Moses was getting more understanding than He had given to Abraham. All Abraham knew was that “God Almighty” was speaking to Him. Moses knew that Jehovah was speaking to him.

Exodus 3:14-15, “God replied, ‘I am who I am.’ Then He added, ‘This is what you shall tell the Isrealites: I AM has sent me to you.’ God spoke further to Moses, 'Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, this is my title for all generations.”

The utterance “I am who I am” is the source for the word YHWH which is the proper personal name of the God of Israel. It has been translated as Yahweh, or as Jehovah. Out of reverence for this name the term Adonai, “my Lord,” was used as a subsitute. The term LORD in the present version of the Bible is representative of this traditional usage.

Exodus 20:2-3, “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods besides me.”

Here, the LORD, using His proper personal name (Jehovah/Jesus according to LDS), is saying that He alone (Jehovah/Jesus) is to be the object of the Israelites’ worship. He does not say that He is only to be worshipped when physically present, which is official LDS teaching. He also does not say that worship should be given to Elohim through Jehovah, which is also LDS teaching.

Also, I find no passage of scripture where Moses instructs the Israelites to worship Jehovah. To what passage are you referring?

The majority of the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are taken up by the LORD (Jehovah/Jesus) speaking through Moses to the Israelites instructing them on the proper way to worship Him.

But if you need a specific verse, “Worship the LORD your God…” Exodus 23:25. Remember, LORD stands in for YHWH or Jehovah.

 

[ParkerD]

Exodus 3:14-15, “God replied, ‘I am who I am.’ Then He added, ‘This is what you shall tell the Isrealites: I AM has sent me to you.’ God spoke further to Moses, 'Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, this is my title for all generations.”

The utterance “I am who I am” is the source for the word YHWH which is the proper personal name of the God of Israel. It has been translated as Yahweh, or as Jehovah. Out of reverence for this name the term Adonai, “my Lord,” was used as a subsitute. The term LORD in the present version of the Bible is representative of this traditional usage.

Exodus 20:2-3, “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods besides me.”

Here, the LORD, using His proper personal name (Jehovah/Jesus according to LDS), is saying that He alone (Jehovah/Jesus) is to be the object of the Israelites’ worship. He does not say that He is only to be worshipped when physically present, which is official LDS teaching. He also does not say that worship should be given to Elohim through Jehovah, which is also LDS teaching.

The majority of the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are taken up by the LORD (Jehovah/Jesus) speaking through Moses to the Israelites instructing them on the proper way to worship Him.

But if you need a specific verse, “Worship the LORD your God…” Exodus 23:25. Remember, LORD stands in for YHWH or Jehovah.

Amontoya,
Well said. But 23:25 in the Latin Vulgate Bible online is translated as:
25 And you shall serve the Lord your God, that I may bless your bread and your waters, and may take away sickness from the midst of thee.

In the Latin Vulgate Bible online, I searched for “worship the Lord your God” and found that it gave no results with that exact phrase. The closest one was from Judith–a non-Mosaic text.

But I fully admit that the Bible is confusing about the Godhead, and I really can see why Christianity generally took what I consider the “safe” approach to the subject since they had the Nicene creed as an accepted doctrinal position, and the Old Testament does imply “one God” many times. I think the New Testament, especially when Jesus identified Himself as I AM, and even such verses as the one you mentioned about Him being “about My Father’s business”, differentiate.

I doubt that anyone will agree intellectually with the LDS belief about the Godhead. It’s too ingrained in thinking the other way. It would take a spiritual awakening, a non-intellectual approach, as Paul taught in 1 Cor 2:9-14.

Thanks, Amontoya. You have been forthright and kind. I appreciate those qualities here.

 

[amontoya]

Thanks, Amontoya. You have been forthright and kind. I appreciate those qualities here.

And thank you, ParkerD. I’ve enjoyed the discussion.

Incidentally, in that passage that you quoted from Exodus 6, when God calls Himself “God Almighty” the phrase is “El Shaddai.” Prior to revealing His name, YHWH, to Moses, God was known as El or Elohim, which to me contradicts the idea that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.