A Question for LDS

[RebeccaJ]

But how do you know that baptism in the Catholic Church can save you from death and eternal punishment? How do you know that communion in the Catholic Church can bring you to Christ? How do you know that marriage in the Catholic Church creates an eternal family?

Because this is what Jesus and the Apostles teach us.

 

[Scriptorian]

God does not have a body. It is irrational to think he does. It is a restriction to his omnipresence. Omnipresence is an attribute of the Christian God.

The body is not considered evil by the Catholic Church. Have you seen the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel?

I may be mistaken, but I thought that the Catholic belief was that the body is a prison. Isn’t that why so many monks in the past have practiced corporeal punishment?

Sorry if that is not accurate.

As far as omnipresence, God is omnipresent through his spirit. I do not understand it completely, but somehow this spirit (or light) enlightens “every man who cometh into the world.” (John 1:9) It is also is the law that gives order to the universe. The laws of nature are really the laws of God. This light, these laws, this spirit is in all things and through all things and round about all things.

But Joseph Smith once said that if you could stare into heaven for five minutes you would know more than an all the books ever written about the subject. It takes a revelation from God to understand the nature of God.

When was the last time there was a revelation of God to the Catholic Church?

 

[RebeccaJ]

oh, this again. Your church has lied to you. We believe in revelation.

 

[Scriptorian]

Because this is what Jesus and the Apostles teach us.

I don’t remember them ever mentioning the Catholic Church. There is a great disconnect (inconsistencies) between what the Bible teaches and what the modern Catholic Church practices. Why do you think that is?

 

[Scriptorian]

oh, this again. Your church has lied to you. We believe in revelation.

I know you do. But when was he last time God revealed himself to anyone from your church?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I know you do. But when was he last time God revealed himself to anyone from your church?

God reveals Himself to everyone, every day. From the catechism:

By his Revelation, “the invisible God, from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends, and moves among them, in order to invite and receive them into his own company.” The adequate response to this invitation is faith.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t remember them ever mentioning the Catholic Church. There is a great disconnect (inconsistencies) between what the Bible teaches and what the modern Catholic Church practices. Why do you think that is?

I find no disconnect or inconsistencies.

 

[Scriptorian]

That does not mean that God is a part of His creation or arose from within that creation. If I build a house, I can visit that house any time I want; I can walk through that house and spend time in any part of it I choose, because it is mine. That does not mean that I am part of the house.

Likewise, God created the universe, and so He cares for it and can be in it and throughout it as he wishes. But God is not a part of the universe that He created.

Have you ever built a house? I haven’t. But I have created programs and systems and websites. Those creations of mine bear my mark, my style, my personality, my character even. There is part of me in every one of them. How much more would a such an incomprehensibly complex creation like the universe reflect the nature of God?

I don’t think that God arose from the universe, though. Just that he is very much a part of it.

Just for discussion’s sake, if God is perfect and good, how could he create people or things that were imperfect or evil? Ponder that one for a while.

 

[Scriptorian]

I find no disconnect or inconsistencies.

Shall we start with this one from Peter (in the book of Acts):

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

Peter taught that we should be baptized for the remission of sins and that we would then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That presents two problems for the modern Catholic:

1. 
   *]Why are infants baptized when they clearly do not have sins? Even if you include “original sin” that is only one sin.
   *]How do those who are baptized in the Catholic Church receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? What do you believe that gift is?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Shall we start with this one from Peter (in the book of Acts):

Peter taught that we should be baptized for the remission of sins and that we would then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That presents two problems for the modern Catholic:

1. 
   *]Why are infants baptized when they clearly do not have sins? Even if you include “original sin” that is only one sin.
   *]How do those who are baptized in the Catholic Church receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? What do you believe that gift is?

1. 
   LDS do not understand original sin properly. You can study up on the correct meaning. What sins are your 8 year olds repenting of before they are baptized?
   
   Children are baptized, which initiates them into the Church. The graces of their baptism helps them to grow into a Christian life. When they are 7-14 years of age, they are confirmed and receive their first Holy Communion.
   
   An adult convert is baptized and confirmed, usually on the same day, and usually at Easter Vigil (the Saturday before Easter).
   
   Confirmation is done by a priest or bishop, who anoints the person with holy oil and gives to them the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands.

 

[Scriptorian]

God reveals Himself to everyone, every day. From the catechism:

By his Revelation, “the invisible God, from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends, and moves among them, in order to invite and receive them into his own company.” The adequate response to this invitation is faith.

How could Jesus say that “he which is of God” has seen God the Father?

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46)

How can anyone see God if he is invisible (in the literal sense)? Didn’t Moses see him? Didn’t he appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Didn’t he appear twice to Solomon?

I can’t have faith in a God that is unknowable, invisible, and incomprehensible. I prefer a God that is tangible, visible, and unchanging. A God that says, “Come unto me.” A God that will walk among the lepers and touch the eyes of the blind to heal them. A God that will eat honeycomb and broiled fish with his servants.

If Christ was perfect, how can you say that he is so different from the Father? Did Christ not himself say to Phillip:

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14: 9)

Jesus was in the very image of the father both spiritually and physically. I challenge you to find any scripture to the contrary.

 

[RebeccaJ]

How could Jesus say that “he which is of God” has seen God the Father?

Matthew 16

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah.** For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.**

The Holy Spirit guides all to Truth.

How can anyone see God if he is invisible (in the literal sense)? Didn’t Moses see him? Didn’t he appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Didn’t he appear twice to Solomon?

God can appear in any form He likes. Sometimes He appeared as an Angel. Sometimes as a burning bush. Do you think God is a burning bush?

I can’t have faith in a God that is unknowable, invisible, and incomprehensible. I prefer a God that is tangible, visible, and unchanging. A God that says, “Come unto me.” A God that will walk among the lepers and touch the eyes of the blind to heal them. A God that will eat honeycomb and broiled fish with his servants.

Yes, this is the God of Christianity.

If Christ was perfect, how can you say that he is so different from the Father? Did Christ not himself say to Phillip:

Yes, this is a description of the Trinity.

Jesus was in the very image of the father both spiritually and physically. I challenge you to find any scripture to the contrary.

John 4

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.

 

[Stephen168]

As far as omnipresence, God is omnipresent through his spirit.

A spirit doesn’t have a body; that is why having a physical body is a restriction to God.

But Joseph Smith once said that if you could stare into heaven for five minutes you would know more than an all the books ever written about the subject.

But is it true.

When was the last time there was a revelation of God to the Catholic Church?

What do you mean by ‘revelation of God?’

 

[kikkichan]

I may be mistaken, but I thought that the Catholic belief was that the “body is a prison”. Isn’t that why so many monks in the past have practiced corporeal punishment?
…

Scriptorian,

I think you are referring to mortification, (not corporeal punishment), and it has nothing to do with the body being a prison.

NEW ADVENT: Home

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Mortification: The term originated with St. Paul, who traces an instructive analogy between Christ dying to a mortal and rising to an immortal life, and His followers who renounce their past life of sin and rise through grace to a new life of holiness. “If you live after the flesh”, says the apostle, “you shall die, but if through the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live” (Rom., viii, 13; cf. also Col., iii, 5, and Gal., v, 24)

If you’ve ever had to force yourself to work-out instead of watching TV, or denied yourself dessert while dieting, you’ve may have practiced self-mortification!
-kc

 

[Scriptorian]

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah.** For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.**

God is not flesh and blood. He is flesh and bone. Just as Jesus was after he was resurrected. God the Father is a resurrected being with a tangible body.

The Holy Spirit guides all to Truth.

I agree.

God can appear in any form He likes. Sometimes He appeared as an Angel. Sometimes as a burning bush. Do you think God is a burning bush?

God does not appear in any form, but the way he communicates may be through many forms. He wasn’t a bush, for example, but he was in the midst of the burning bush. He wasn’t a cloud, but he was in the midst of the cloud. He wasn’t a fire, but he was in the midst of the fire. But we aren’t talking about how God communicates, just whether or not he has a physical body.

Yes, this is the God of Christianity.

That may be so, but that is not the God described in the Christian Bible.

Yes, this is a description of the Trinity.

The “Trinity” is something that the Catholics made up. It is a confusing, illogical, non-scriptural, mystical pile of rubbish. Few ideas in all of history have done more to darken the minds of man concerning God than this horrible doctrine. What a theological mess! It just doesn’t make any sense. And if you say that it doesn’t make sense people respond that it is because God is unknowable and incomprehensible. How convenient.

Again, not according to scripture:

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)

As for your scripture:

John 4

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.

This does not say anything about Christ. Are you saying that Christ does not have a spirit?

Look, basically, I want you to understand that God is not the impersonal, unknowable, incomprehensible, untouchable, invisible being that is also the biggest, smallest, nearest, and farthest being in the universe while also being totally unrelated to us he is also our father.

If you do not understand the nature of God, you do not understand yourself. We are his children. His children. He is our father. Our father. How much more straightforward do the scriptures need to be?

 

[Scriptorian]

What do you mean by ‘revelation of God?’

I am so glad you asked that question. A revelation of God is when God speaks to man face to face in order to reveal to him the mysteries of heaven. Such revelations are prevalent in the scriptures and occur with the prophets in all ages. Some examples:

Gen. 32: 30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Ex. 33: 11
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Ezek. 20: 35
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

I have heard the voice of a prophet just today who has seen the Lord face to face and speaks with him as a man speaks with his friend. This man leads the Church of Jesus Christ and upon the rock of revelation Christ has always established his church. He promised Peter that he would not leave him comfortless, and he didn’t. He came to him and was with him always. He still visits his servants today and does not leave them comfortless.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you…
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14:18,23)

 

[Scriptorian]

Scriptorian,

I think you are referring to mortification, (not corporeal punishment), and it has nothing to do with the body being a prison.

If you’ve ever had to force yourself to work-out instead of watching TV, or denied yourself dessert while dieting, you’ve may have practiced self-mortification!
-kc

How is making yourself more healthy self-mortification? I think you mean things like self-inflicted poverty or denying yourself sexual gratification. I don’t know that dieting would be part of that.

I was referring more to the extremes of that practice where people would inflict upon themselves bodily harm literally putting the flesh to death, or near death. The prison reference was just how I heard someone explain it to me once.

 

[Stephen168]

God the Father is a resurrected being with a tangible body.

Where was he born?

 

[Stephen168]

How is making yourself more healthy self-mortification?

What do you mean by healthy?

 

[Stephen168]

I am so glad you asked that question. A revelation of God is when God speaks to man face to face in order to reveal to him the mysteries of heaven. Such revelations are prevalent in the scriptures and occur with the prophets in all ages. Some examples:

Do you have example of this happening recently?