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DerekW
Guest
hello here !
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schaick
Guest
I had never thought of that look what I just found:
answeringislam.org/authors/masihiyyen/gnostic_islamic_crucifixion.html
I think Mohammad was also influenced by the Collyridians when he thought Christians considered Mary a part of the Trinity.
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schaick
Guest
Muslims might be able to get to the truth if they actually read the Holy Bible. See the parts I made bold:
Romans 11
13** I am talking to you Gentiles**. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and **you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, **18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
So you could say that as a person becomes a Christian/ believer of the truth they become the found/adopted sheep of Israel.
As a Gentile you too could someday be grafted on to the olive tree.
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hamba2han
Guest
The Book of Romans was written by Paul and so Muslims generally are not really interested in the things found in the New Testament that Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself did not speak about.
I have asked Christian Zionists many times to point out just one verse in the NT where Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself says something about the Jews that might suggest that he would support the Zionist state of Israel when he returns to the world and so far, I have not yet gotten even a single plausible answer from any of these Christian Zionists.
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schaick
Guest
You really need to read the entire Gospel!! Are you afraid to or do you worry that you might be punished or killed for reading it?
All nations means all people here:
Matthew 28
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
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hamba2han
Guest
In general, there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts the Qur’an… and the only instances where contradictions between the Bible and the Qur’an are found to occur is where the Bible also contradicts itself.
For example, two out of the three verses below agrees with each other and also with the Qur’an:
He said to them, "Go into ALL the world and preach the good news to ALL creation. … (Mark 16:15)
"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." … (Matthew 15:24)
"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." … (Matthew 10:5-6)
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FaithJoy
Guest
If God’s plan was to have Jesus give the good news to the lost people of Israel and for His followers go spread out to what he preached, why would that be a bad thing. Obviously Jesus had a plan and fulfill prophecies to Israel in which Israel ONLY knew. Then after that,His followers would have the job to spread the good news. Seems to be a very good plan to me considering Jesus ONLY could spend 33yrs on this earth. Followers Have countless yrs.
You see,Hamba,you are misunderstanding the Bible. You think the followers of Jesus and Jesus have the same mission given by God. I don’t know were you came to that conclusion.
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MontChevalier
Guest
You have yet to give any amble proof on how the Muslims have any connection to the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments were sent ONLY to the Jews. You cannot follow them without following also the other Jewish Laws. And you can’t be a Christian without first understanding which of the Jewish Laws were abrogated by Christ himself. That’s why we’re called Judeo-Christians. We are what comes next.
Oh, and when it says “I was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.” Christ means that HE was sent to the Jews FIRST.
You wanna talk contradiction?
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Then Adam received commandments from his Lord, and his Lord repented (fataba) towards him; for He is Oft-Repenting (huwa al-tawwabu), Most Merciful. Surah. 2:37
Our Lord! And make us submissive unto you and of our seed a nation submissive unto you, and show us our ways of worship, and repent (watub) toward us. Lo! You are the Repenting (anta al-tawwabu), the merciful. Surah. 2:128
Except those who repent (taboo) and make amends and openly declare: To them I repent (atoobu); for I am Oft-Repenting (wa ana al-tawwabu), Most Merciful. Surah. 2:160
Do they not know that Allah accepts repentance (al-tawbata) from his servants and takes the alms, and that Allah is the Oft-returning (huwa al-tawwabu), the Merciful? Surah. 9:104
And to the three who were left behind, until the earth became strait to them notwithstanding its spaciousness and their souls were also straightened to them; and they knew it for certain that there was no refuge from Allah but in Him; then He repented (taba) to them that they might repent (liyatooboo); surely Allah is the Oft-repenting (huwa al-tawwabu), the Merciful. Surah. 9:118I think that statement about Satan and Muhammad seems to fit in here.
-MontChevalier
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schaick
Guest
LOL! good post. Laughed so hard about the no contradictions with the Holy Bible. There are contradictions with-in just the Quran!
There is a real dilemma for Muslims. Islam can not succeed without discrediting the Holy Bible, but the Quran validates, confirms the Gospel and Torah and basically the whole Bible. So Muslims are going against Mohammad by not confirming the Holy Bible.
5.46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
5.47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
*6.87 (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.
6.88 This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them.
6.89 These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.
6.90 Those were the (prophets) who received Allah’s guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: “No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations.” *
See this verse it says concealed not corrupted:
6.91 No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: “Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)” Say: “Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers.” Say: “Allah (sent it down)”: Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.
The whole Bible is confirmed in the following verse- funny though Mohammad did not know about the spurious and false Gospels so did he confirm the fake scriptures here? Did he know the Bible was made up of many “books”? Which book is"this is a book referring to? The Quran had not been written yet it was just a jumble of verses, so which book is confirming the Book?
*6.92 And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers. *
5.68 Say: “O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.” It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith
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hamba2han
Guest
Well, since you are talking about God’s plan for the Jews, then I do think that both Muslims and Christians can certainly agree that over the past 2000 years or so, there has not been a single Christian or Jew born who knew more about God’s plan for the Jews than what Jesus Christ (pbuh) knew.
And so, who should any faithful Muslim or Christian believe – either Jesus Christ (pbuh) who says that the Lord will take away His Covenant from the Jews and give it to another nation in Matthew 21:43… or Christian Zionists like John Hagee who says things about the Jews which are completely opposite to what Jesus (pbuh) himself said about the Jews as recorded in the New Testament?
If people who profess to follow Jesus Christ (pbuh) only believe in the things that he says as recorded in the New Testament, then they will not have any doubts or confusion regarding the matter of God’s plan for the Jews because Jesus (pbuh) himself has spoken about it.
In other words, followers need to actually FOLLOW the one whom they profess to follow and it is absolutely illogical and incomprehensible for followers to have a different mission than the mission of their leader… and this is especially true when the followers do NOT receive divine revelation like their leader has.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Who other than the Jews are of “the children of Jacob”? Even the Samaritans who were/are biologically descended from Jacob(Israel) were considered to not belong to the House of Israel- Even Jesus affirmed this in the gospels,and this regardless of the fact they retained belief in and worship of the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and they considered Jacob their father.
I don’t know what studies you’re referring to- the only ones I’m aware of simply say that the Semites have a common origin- A simple truth- Abraham was himself from the lands inhabited by Arabs. I don’t know that they say, that any Arabs are descended from Jacob, or Ishmael, or Abraham for that matter, or just simply from some earlier common ancestor(s) preceding even Abraham- It’s not like Abraham dropped out of nowhere, he did belong to a particular people.
Yes, Muslim polemicists generally ignore parts of the New Testament that they cannot twist to their liking.
Perhaps you don’t know this, but most Christians are not zionists, so this argument is irrelevant- you’re in debate with Christians, not Zionists.
I’m so confident that an adequate answer has/will be given here, I wont even bother with this one
Of course, as expected you take things out of context to suit your purposes. Before the Resurrection, Jesus only focused on Israel, after, he sent the Apostles everywhere in the world. You can’t accept this because it removes your prophet’s claimed reason for being. he had to say Jesus was not the final and full revelation- How else could he retain a contrary position and still maintain his claim to prophet-hood? This was also why he taught the false doctrine that God somehow allowed all revelations to be corrupted but would (without reason) protect Mohammed’s
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Marybeloved
Guest
This is what Mathew 21:43 actually says,
**"Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. "
**
I don’t know about you, but I see nothing about God taking away his Covenant with the Jews- Where did you get the idea? Don’t you know that when Jesus himself began his public ministry, he started by saying “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand”? The Jews themselves expected the establishment of this kingdom on earth by their long awaited messiah, an earthly kingdom, which is why they rejected Christ’s claim to messiah-ship, who said “My kingdom is not of this world”.
God made many Covenants- With Adam (more of a promise of salvation, rather); With Noah after the flood; With Abraham; With the Jews, through Moses; Finally the* “New and Everlasting covenant”* with Jesus Christ, the new Adam on behalf of the whole human race- These covenants were sealed in blood, and Jesus told us that his blood was of the New and Everlasting covenant shed for all for the forgiveness of sins.
I don’t know why you should believe that the “Kingdom” being given to others (not Jews) takes away their covenant- The two are independent, just like the covenant of the Hebrews (through Moses) did not vitiate any of the previous covenants. You see the idea of replacing and vitiating what God already did before is Muhammad’s innovation- It has no precedence in Christianity or Judaism- There’s no such thing as abrogation with us- Again, that is a Muhammadan invention.
And last I checked, John Hagee was no pope, nor Church Magisterium, but a singular voice speaking for himself- Again, Zionism is not the dominant Christian position.
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rain_bow
Guest
Well yes Mary, I also heard that Nestorians, Mormons, and Jehova’s witness are considered as heretic Christian groups right?But why? Nestorians and mormons consider jesus as son of God. And JW also consider the same,but claims that Jesus is actually saint michael, am I wrong? I mean I am just curious,because I do not know those stuff very well.
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rain_bow
Guest
Actually i believe that all were the illusion of Mohammed, and later he trusted all his illusion as the truth.Patients of Schizophrenia can see such things, like an angel is calling him or something like that.I read a book written by a psychiatrist and knew about this disease.Though I am not sure that if he was ill or really power hungry man who wanted to rule the Arabia as Prophet!
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rain_bow
Guest
Hey folks, I am observing a poster here named “hamba2han”. And I found that he/she always uses emotion than rationality!I am reading his/her articles but do not know how to reply!! Do not Mind hamba2han please,my intention is not to insult you,but I found that you always led by emotion.
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hamba2han
Guest
Here is a link to a Christian perspective on who are the Children of Israel and while I do not agree with all that is said in this article, nevertheless it does illustrate that it is not only Jews who are of the Children of Israel.
Also, genetic studies have shown that the Pashtun people of Afghanistan and the Lemba people of Africa are very likely to be the descendants of the ancient tribes of Israel.
And BTW, what good would a Covenant be if it does not allow entry into the Kingdom of God?.. Is this not the whole purpose of entering into a Covenant with God i.e. to enter into His Kingdom?
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Marybeloved
Guest
Hallo, Rainbow, great to see you here
There are some beliefs which are so universal and fundamental in Christianity, that disbelief in them qualifies you as a non-christian- I know it’s harsh, but it’s true. Like the muslim belief in one God and Mohammed’s prophet-hood, they constitute the foundation of everything else.
They are:
a) Belief in the Trinity, which is 1) One God 2) in three divine persons;
b) Belief in the incarnation and hypo-static union, that is: that the 2nd person of the blessed Trinity took flesh in Mary’s womb and became One Divine person possessing two natures, the complete divine nature, and a complete human nature - You’ll hear Christians saying: Jesus was 100% God and 100% man, not 50-50-This is what they are referring to.
c) Others are Jesus’ life, suffering, crucifixion, death, resurrection, ascension, 2nd coming, belief in the last judgment, resurrection of everyone at the end of the world, belief in The decent of God the Holy Spirit on the church on Pentecost. You’ll find them in the christian creeds.
All Christians accept these things as truth- be they Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants- disbelief in them earns you any lable from heretic to apostate to non-christian, depending on the extent of your denials.
To be Honest, the JWs and Mormons are not even considered just heretics but non-Christians. When people become Catholics from other Christian groups, such as orthodox and protestants, they are never re-baptized, just received into the Church. Re-baptizing a validly baptized Christian is considered blasphemy and a denial of God’s power. The Church does not even permit us to call them “converts” because they are Christians. But JWs and Mormons coming to the church are baptized the same way former Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists are baptized.
The JWs deny the Trinity and also do not accept Jesus’ Divinity, they think he was the incarnation of St. Michael the Archangel (a creature!) in Mary’s womb, not the incarnation of God the Son/God the Word. So when they call Jesus “the Son of God” they mean something radically different from the fundamental Christian belief. To us, they are more like Muslims than Christians- Therefore non-Christians. (It’s no coincidence that Muslim polemicists use JW works when arguing against the trinity and divinity of Christ- The JWs and Muslims share many beliefs!!)
The Mormons are worse! They are not even monotheists! They think the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three gods, they think people can also become gods! They believe in a new revelation after Christ given to their prophet Joseph Smith, called the book of Mormons which purportedly corrects the corruptions by Christians of the revelations given by Christ- here they are identical to Muslims!
They cannot by any measure be considered Christians- Scholars just classify them so because they call themselves “The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-Day Saints”.The Nestorians in their attempts at understanding how Christ was both God and man, ended up by saying that Jesus was a union of two persons, one Divine, one Human- Which essentially meant that a human and God were living together but were not one person-that’s why they are considered Heretics to this day.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Hamba, a covenant is like a contract but much deeper- Blood covenants involve people pledging to be one people and pledging certain things to one another. In each of the Covenants that God made with different people, certain things were promised by God and the people and both were bound to each other as per the terms of the covenant.
This may appear strange to a Muslim due to the Islamic view of God as a completely transcendent being who has no real relationships with people- He’s the slave owner- we’re the slaves, this is the Islamic view, not the Judaic or Christian view of God as one in real relationships with his people. In the OT you’ll find Prophets arguing with God all the time, reminding him of his promises, even complaining to him and you’ll also find God in a sense “arguing his case” against the people based on the covenant terms, not just on the fact that he’s the big boss. We believe that even though God is our God, has absolute rights over us, if he wanted slaves he would have made us like animals- unable to disobey in any way- Rather he made creatures with free will, who could love and be in true relationships (of mutuality) with God and with each other.
So to answer your question, a Covenant means that God will keep his end of the bargain. The Israelites were to obey God’s Laws and he in turn was to take care of them- It was a covenant relationship sealed in blood. Even when the ancient Isrealites kept falling into idolatry God did not repudiate the covenant but always called them back and he held true to his covenant. So the Jews do have a covenant with God. It may seem to you to be no good at all, but it is a covenant with God and is therefore very holy. We don’t know how God will treat the Jews, we don’t even know if they can be punished for not being Christians- we do know that they have their own Covenant and that eventually, because of it, because God is ever-faithful, they will be converted as a group.
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Marybeloved
Guest
I should also say that I was wrong in the post to which you were replying. Those Arabs who influenced Muhammad’s understanding of Christian beliefs were not Nestorians but Gnostics- You can read about them here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Peace!
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rain_bow
Guest
ThanksHallo, Rainbow, great to see you here
Its Okay,its not harsh because I am not Christian
.Thanks for your explanation, now I know the differences.
I do not think that polytheist peoples are worse because I had a friend who practiced Wicca,though I never asked to her what is it, just I know that it is a form of Neo-Paganism, and she was a wonderful womanThe Mormons are worse! They are not even monotheists! They think the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three gods, they think people can also become gods! They believe in a new revelation after Christ given to their prophet Joseph Smith, called the book of Mormons which purportedly corrects the corruptions by Christians of the revelations given by Christ- here they are identical to Muslims!
.And also many peoples do not consider Christians as monotheist, because of trinity, but since this is off topic so lets not talk about it. and As I said, still trinity is not clear to me, so I think I need to understand it 1st.
I hope you also confess that trinity is very complex and difficult to understand for non Christians
.Well yes, as you explained about mainstream Christianity, so I guess indeed The Nestorians are heretic according to mainstream Christianity and Mohammad just took his idea from those peoples, when he wrote his book Koran
.Anyway thanks again for your nice explanation, atleast it is clear now the difference between mainstream Christianity and other heretic or non Christian denominations, who claim themselves Christian. :hug1:
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