A question for non-Catholic Christians on salvation

[reen12]

Dear Mystophilus,

quote: Mystophilus

…allow me to suggest that imperfect creatures will always fail to accurately comprehend a perfect God.

Alas, this is a point that I had recognized, with clarity,
by 1958.
In any case, thanks for the thought, :tiphat:

Best,

reen12

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Do you believe in the Resurrection?
(Well at least the resurrection of a thread that died 2 years ago.)

Like Zooey, above, I am a United Methodist and have some ideas on this that are not specifically Methodist. Unlike her, I don’t think that Mary’s faith has anything to do with God’s acceptance of children.

I think that each person is accountable to God to the degree that they are able to understand the revelation of God which they have received. Based on Romans 2 I see that there are different levels of revelation and also different levels of accountability in this world, even among adults. I apply this same principle to all persons of all ages. I believe that God is not limited in his ability to converse with infants, just because I am. I think that no person is able to fully understand all there is to know about God, so such knowledge is not essential to salvation. All that is truly necessary is for God to choose to save. We have the assurance that God will act to save those who believe, confess their faith and are baptized. I don’t believe this assurance for some to at the same time become a restriction denying God to be gracious to others. I affirm that God is a God of love and mercy. Thus I trust God to do what is right. Though I do not know with certainty the eternal destiny of infants who die, other than that it is one of just two options, heaven or hell, yet I believe it may be that God communicates with us even while yet in the womb making himself known to us and that we can come to whatever level of infant faith that is acceptable to God without adults even being aware of it. As I do not think that baptism is necessary for salvation, but rather is a sign (not a generating cause) of God’s grace, I do not find the absence of baptism to be prohibitive in a child’s, infant’s, or fetus’ opportunity to go to heaven. I believe scripture when Paul quotes from Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
and,
“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God’.”
As Paul applies this not only to Jews but to Gentiles, so I believe God may apply it not only to adults but even to infants.

Now officially, the United Methodist Church says precious little about what happens to infants who die unbaptized. We talk about original sin and inherited depravity, that all persons are stained with the consequences of Adam’s sin and that we are by nature sinners from birth. And we see baptism as a promise from God of a person’s reception into the family of God, though we are a bit duplicitous and also say that salvation is by grace alone through faith. So, we leave your question unresolved and cast our hopes on God’s mercy and grace, for without it all persons are damned to hell for eternity.

 

[The_Truthinator]

I do not hold the sacramental value of baptism. However, I do uphold Original Sin.

So now we reach a dilemma: What does happen to those too young to accept the Sacrifice of Christ, who then would remain stained with Original Sin? I maintain that Original Sin is little more than the transferral of Adam’s (and Eve’s, for that matter) sinful nature to his children, his children’s children, and so on, to the present day. I believe that this inherit corruption is responsible for death on both a physical and spiritual level. However, I do not believe a just God, as I serve, would transfer their *guilt *to the children. All humanity is born with a tendency towards wrongdoing, even at an infant’s age. However, as they are unable to consciously choose between right and wrong, they are not responsible for any personal sin, any guilt on their part. (Granted, it is more than possible that God does in fact bestow the guilt upon the children, and if this is the chase, then their fate is even more mysterious, but I trust my God, so that to me is alright.)

If not, I think it’s only fair to say God, who wishes for all to know him, will receive them into his Kingdom. And in any case, their fate is in his merciful hands … and that is encouragement enough for me.

 

[believers]

Would someone please address the following, for me,
in terms of the theology of their own Christian denomination?

Catholicism holds that it cannot state with *certainty *that
the souls of infants who die without Baptism are received
into heaven…i.e., the beatific vision.
It “entrusts” these little people to the “mercy of God.”

What do other Christian denominations hold, with reference
to the eternal destiny of these infants?
Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut.

reen12*

Jesus demonstrated on earth that He holds them in higher regard than adults. He said we adults must become like little children. Let’s not forget that Jesus paid for Adam’s sin when He went to the cross.

Mat 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[dougfreed]

I believe that they go to heaven…
Us from dust

 

[JonNC]

Would someone please address the following, for me,
in terms of the theology of their own Christian denomination?

Catholicism holds that it cannot state with *certainty *that
the souls of infants who die without Baptism are received
into heaven…i.e., the beatific vision.
It “entrusts” these little people to the “mercy of God.”

What do other Christian denominations hold, with reference
to the eternal destiny of these infants?
Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut.

reen12*

reen,
This my take alone, and not a reflection of any church’s doctrine. A child is clear born into sin. The sacrament of Baptism clearly brings forgiveness of sins. There is no reason on earth to believe that unbaptized children go to heaven. But in Christ, there is no reason to believe they don’t.

Jon

 

[dougfreed]

The child knows no sin. How can you say the child has sin? We are judge by our own actions or sins if you will. That is why no one should be baptized until they are old enough to understand what baptism is and what the symbolism represents.

reen,
This my take alone, and not a reflection of any church’s doctrine. A child is clear born into sin. The sacrament of Baptism clearly brings forgiveness of sins. There is no reason on earth to believe that unbaptized children go to heaven. But in Christ, there is no reason to believe they don’t.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

The child knows no sin. How can you say the child has sin? We are judge by our own actions or sins if you will. That is why no one should be baptized until they are old enough to understand what baptism is and what the symbolism represents.

Romans 5

12
4 Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned 5 –
13
for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.
14
But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.

Formula of Concord Solid Declaration

5] 1. And first, it is true that Christians should regard and recognize as sin not only the actual transgression of God’s commandments; but also that the horrible, dreadful hereditary malady by which the entire nature is corrupted should above all things be regarded and recognized as sin indeed, yea, as the chief sin, which is a root and fountain-head of all actual sins. 6] And by Dr. Luther it is called a nature-sin or person-sin, thereby to indicate that, even though a person would think, speak, or do nothing evil (which, however, is impossible in this life, since the fall of our first parents), his nature and person are nevertheless sinful, that is, thoroughly and utterly infected and corrupted before God by original sin, as by a spiritual leprosy; and on account of this corruption and because of the fall of the first man the nature or person is accused or condemned by God’s Law, so that we are by nature the children of wrath, death, and damnation, unless we are delivered therefrom by the merit of Christ.

While an infant may not be capable of individual sins, he/she is born into original sin, as described in Romans 5, and in the Lutheran Confessions. It is the necessity of Baptism.

Jon

 

[dougfreed]

Jon,
I am not saying Baptism is not a necessity. I am saying Christ died for our sins therefore the child would be forgiven and would go to heaven. Baptism is something one does as an outward sign that you are choosing to follow Christ and his teachings, which means you should be of a decision age when you get baptized not a baby who can’t make a decision. To baptize a baby is to make the parents feel good not for the child to follow Christ.

Romans 5

Formula of Concord Solid Declaration

While an infant may not be capable of individual sins, he/she is born into original sin, as described in Romans 5, and in the Lutheran Confessions. ** It is the necessity of Baptism**.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon,
I am not saying Baptism is not a necessity. I am saying Christ died for our sins therefore the child would be forgiven and would go to heaven. Baptism is something one does as an outward sign that you are choosing to follow Christ and his teachings, which means you should be of a decision age when you get baptized not a baby who can’t make a decision. To baptize a baby is to make the parents feel good not for the child to follow Christ.

Baptism is something God does to wash away sin, and make one His. It may make parents feel good, to be sure, but that is irrelevant. Since the time of the Apostles, and in scripture itself ("go into all nations, baptizing them…), the sacrament of Holy Baptism has been a gift of God to humankind, including infants (“suffer the little children to come unto me…”). Why would we delay His gift of Holy Baptism? It is His outward sign for us, not ours to Him.

Augsburg Confession

1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.

Jon

 

[IowaJay]

In Lutheran circles, I have heard it stated that baptism is necessary, but not absolutely necessary. God’s grace knows no bounds, and we trust that the merciful God we know through Jesus Christ will have mercy on them.

 

[Reformed]

Elect infants who die in infancy will be in Heaven because the Spirit applies the work of Christ on the elect infant’s behalf before he dies. I believe John the Baptist was converted in his mother’s womb without participating in a sacrament (infant baptism or infant circumcision). Who are the elect infants? Only God knows. We can consider 1 Cor and Acts 2 with covenant children in the discussion.

 

[rbarcia]

2 Samuel 12

20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

21 His servants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

 

[Zooey]

Baptism is something God does to wash away sin, and make one His. It may make parents feel good, to be sure, but that is irrelevant. Since the time of the Apostles, and in scripture itself ("go into all nations, baptizing them…), the sacrament of Holy Baptism has been a gift of God to humankind, including infants (“suffer the little children to come unto me…”). Why would we delay His gift of Holy Baptism? It is His outward sign for us, not ours to Him.

Augsburg Confession

1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.

 

[dougfreed]

What are you stating by these verses?

2 Samuel 12

20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

21 His servants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Hello dear Reen!
You might now I was a Baptist in my previous life , so I will give you our take on that.

Every Baptist denom I have been affiliated with viewed infants as tainted with original sin. However, that original sin debt was paid for by Christ. So, until they can express faith in Christ and can reasonably understand the gift Christ has given, then they are “covered” by the sacrifice of Christ till they can comprehend.

So, in the Baptist understanding this would mean that all children, not just the children of Baptist parents, even the children of atheists, Buddhists, Muslms, animists all go to heaven. Because Christ didn’t pay the debt for just a chosen few, according to John the Baptist he is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

Am I stating the Baptist beliefs correctly?

 

[dougfreed]

YEP!!!
I’m not a Baptist but I agree 100% with it
Why do you see a problem with this?

So, in the Baptist understanding this would mean that all children, not just the children of Baptist parents, even the children of atheists, Buddhists, Muslms, animists all go to heaven. Because Christ didn’t pay the debt for just a chosen few, according to John the Baptist he is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

Am I stating the Baptist beliefs correctly?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

YEP!!!
Why do you see a problem with this?

Though personally, I don’t buy the “age of accountability” argument, which is essentially what you affirmed, I didn’t say I saw a problem. Just wanting to be sure what was being said, before posting.

 

[reen12]

I note that my thread is again being posted to, and thanks to
all who are kindly sharing their thought.

Sometimes, I look at a given reality from the “outer space” POV.

I’m trying to picture a conversation - with those from another planet,
telling them that there is one God, but He is three persons,
and that tens of millions of His followers can’t commit to the eternal destination
of an unbaptized infant - who passes away before baptism.
One can only hope that they are saved.

“Why?” asks an intrepid little traveler.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Because, after centuries had passed, a new religious
group, Christianity, said that everyone is 'born in sin."

“What does that mean,” inquires a little Space Cadet.

It means that this wholly new reality - found in the sacred
writings of others - now declares that original sin was in these
writings all of the time - but weren’t recognized by the
followers of the original faith.

“I don’t understand,” says the puzzled visitor.

“Neither do I,” says moi.

“People need to be saved!” comes a voice, from the edge of
the crowd.

“Saved from what?” http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif inquires the Space Cadet, looking around, nervously.

“Do you have any human ancestors?” I inquire, politely.

“I don’t think so,” says their spokesman.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

“Then not to worry,” says I.

reen12

 

[Grace_Seeker]

It means that this wholly new reality - found in the sacred
writings of others - now declares that original sin was in these
writings all of the time - but weren’t recognized by the
followers of the original faith.

Not so surprising, given that this upstart faith reinterpreted the whole concept of what it means to be saved and how the original group’s Messiah was to be understood as well.