A question for Non-denominationals

[Alex_Di_Matteo]

I am amazed at what appears to me to be childish rantings of religious squabbling. As one who considers himself Catholic but has been around the block regarding different churches, there is a simple answer to the Non-Denominational question. Some of these churches are in fact very anti catholic. They see the Catholic Church as a cult. They see it as based on superstition and as having a works mentality. That is the short version of the one group.
The other group sees themselves as Christian, molded after the early church as seen in the book of the Acts of the Apostles. All of these groups are as varied in theological positions as the numbers of denominations.( Slight Exaggeration on my part ) They can easily get along with others who share different views because they see unity as coming from the fact that we are children of God by the New Birth, not because we all have and believe identical views on doctrine. My take on this is that if we are to be totally honest, there are few who measure up to what the Catholic Church teaches and uses as a rule for unity. I am using E W T N as basis for what I am about to write. To be truly Catholic, you MUST BELIEVE EVERYTHING the church teaches about doctrine. ( excluding that which is considered Private Revelation.) My feeling about that, based on what I have seen, is that there are then a whole lot fewer Catholics in the world than what may meet the eye. In the Catholic Church there are many who are “Protestant,” but yet have never darkened the door of a Protestant Church. They will argue tooth and nail that they are Catholic through and through, but they do not measure up on the Personal Belief scale. See that however you want, but the facts are that most people are that way. Not just Catholics, I might add. I am one of those people. There are some things that I honestly have a problem with, and since I cannot be accepted as Catholic because of my differing views I do not go to the Catholic Church. I am no longer a protestant as I once was, but I cannot hide what I feel about things for fear that someone may think I am not Catholic.

 

[rchapm77]

I have gotten into discussions, both here and elsewhere, wherein non-denominational Christians insist that they are not Protestant. This befuddles me. The theology of non-denominationals is very much built on the theology of the Reformation, so why the denial of the facts?

I have been a member of non-denominational churches in the past, the aim of being non-denominational is to view the church as whole and undivided inspite of differences in doctrine on “disputable matters”. I believe these people you have talked with deny they are protestant because of the division with the chatholic part of the church that lable implies. just a guess anyway.

 

[1beleevr]

Thank you for the explanation. Why do you call yourself non-denominational?

Probably because we don’t affix ourselves to the so-called established denominations! These would include of course all the Baptist denominations, Methodists, Church of Christ, Assembly of God, Nazarene, etc., etc., etc! Face it, being a Christian, you are going to finally agree with another Christian on some issue! The key is, that you agree on the right things! People call me Protestant, and I say,“Whatever blows your skirt up!”

 

[CWBetts]

Probably because we don’t affix ourselves to the so-called established denominations! These would include of course all the Baptist denominations, Methodists, Church of Christ, Assembly of God, Nazarene, etc., etc., etc! Face it, being a Christian, you are going to finally agree with another Christian on some issue! The key is, that you agree on the right things! People call me Protestant, and I say,“Whatever blows your skirt up!”

The problem is your theology is Reformed Theology. To say that you are not a Protestant is either dishonest or delusional.

 

[1beleevr]

I am amazed at what appears to me to be childish rantings of religious squabbling. As one who considers himself Catholic but has been around the block regarding different churches, there is a simple answer to the Non-Denominational question. Some of these churches are in fact very anti catholic. They see the Catholic Church as a cult. They see it as based on superstition and as having a works mentality. That is the short version of the one group.
The other group sees themselves as Christian, molded after the early church as seen in the book of the Acts of the Apostles. All of these groups are as varied in theological positions as the numbers of denominations.( Slight Exaggeration on my part ) They can easily get along with others who share different views because they see unity as coming from the fact that we are children of God by the New Birth, not because we all have and believe identical views on doctrine. My take on this is that if we are to be totally honest, there are few who measure up to what the Catholic Church teaches and uses as a rule for unity. I am using E W T N as basis for what I am about to write. To be truly Catholic, you MUST BELIEVE EVERYTHING the church teaches about doctrine. ( excluding that which is considered Private Revelation.) My feeling about that, based on what I have seen, is that there are then a whole lot fewer Catholics in the world than what may meet the eye. In the Catholic Church there are many who are “Protestant,” but yet have never darkened the door of a Protestant Church. They will argue tooth and nail that they are Catholic through and through, but they do not measure up on the Personal Belief scale. See that however you want, but the facts are that most people are that way. Not just Catholics, I might add. I am one of those people. There are some things that I honestly have a problem with, and since I cannot be accepted as Catholic because of my differing views I do not go to the Catholic Church. I am no longer a protestant as I once was, but I cannot hide what I feel about things for fear that someone may think I am not Catholic.

I agree with the comment regarding rants and religious squabbling And the farther they go, the more dim the Light of Christ becomes, because it then becomes a battle of wits(“I’m right,”"No, our church is right!) We veer off course, and the Gospel get diluted, and people remain skeptical rather than hopeful! And you’re probably right there are probably many churches who are anti-catholic, as well as a percentage of catholics who are anti-Protestant, and everything else not catholic! I have never heard our pastor take pot shots at the catholic church publicly, but that doesn’t mean he may have issue with them privately! Sounds like you are somewhere in limbo, not really sure which way to go.

 

[1beleevr]

The problem is your theology is Reformed Theology. To say that you are not a Protestant is either dishonest or delusional.

You should probably read post#141, how he speaks about rants and squabbles concerning religion! I have had a woman rebuke me for not observing the Sabbath on the correct day, for not wearing a crucifix, and for lifting my handsduring worship! And tell me, do you personally care whether I am nondenominational, Protestant, or whatever? Is it going to change anything about me going to Heaven?

 

[CWBetts]

I agree with the comment regarding rants and religious squabbling And the farther they go, the more dim the Light of Christ becomes, because it then becomes a battle of wits(“I’m right,”"No, our church is right!) We veer off course, and the Gospel get diluted, and people remain skeptical rather than hopeful! And you’re probably right there are probably many churches who are anti-catholic, as well as a percentage of catholics who are anti-Protestant, and everything else not catholic! I have never heard our pastor take pot shots at the catholic church publicly, but that doesn’t mean he may have issue with them privately! Sounds like you are somewhere in limbo, not really sure which way to go.

There ids good reason tho be anti-Protestant. The Protestant Deformation was a rend in the seamless garment of Christ. The Reformation was started by prideful men that could not be bothered to work for reform within the Church properly, but felt toe need to start movements, named after themselves! (How humble is that?) Furthermore, the "non-denominational “church” is a independent body usually started by a single person who somehow thinks they have all of the answers. Forget about having any respect for who has gone before. It is all about them, and their church, only to see it split when someone doesn’t like the color of the new carpet. Let’s say for a moment your worship leader has “never said anything against Catholicism publicly.” Ask him if you can start having communion at every service, because that is what the Early Church did. Ask him if you can adopt a more liturgical service, because that is what the early Church did. Ask him to start reverencing the bread ad wine in communion as the actual body and blood of Christ, because that is what the early Church did. See how long he remains positive, because he will accuse you of being “too Catholic”! And then you will hear the falsehoods and misconceptions fly.

 

[1beleevr]

There ids good reason tho be anti-Protestant. The Protestant Deformation was a rend in the seamless garment of Christ. The Reformation was started by prideful men that could not be bothered to work for reform within the Church properly, but felt toe need to start movements, named after themselves! (How humble is that?) Furthermore, the "non-denominational “church” is a independent body usually started by a single person who somehow thinks they have all of the answers. Forget about having any respect for who has gone before. It is all about them, and their church, only to see it split when someone doesn’t like the color of the new carpet. Let’s say for a moment your worship leader has “never said anything against Catholicism publicly.” Ask him if you can start having communion at every service, because that is what the Early Church did. Ask him if you can adopt a more liturgical service, because that is what the early Church did. Ask him to start reverencing the bread ad wine in communion as the actual body and blood of Christ, because that is what the early Church did. See how long he remains positive, because he will accuse you of being “too Catholic”! And then you will hear the falsehoods and misconceptions fly.

Okay, need to get honest and personal here! More important to me than your religious title, is the condition of your heart. Do you REALLY know Christ? Do you feel secure in your relationshp with Him? I do not believe that God is going to be in Heaven with ascorecard, or you’re not going to see angels holding signs, like at the airport, saying,:Baptists over here, Methodists over there… To be anti any faith, is to say you are anti God and anti Christian! You are slapping God in the face again, saying(basically) that these Christians who do not espouse your belief system are not worthy of the Kingdom! Blasphemy!

 

[CWBetts]

Okay, need to get honest and personal here! More important to me than your religious title, is the condition of your heart. Do you REALLY know Christ? Do you feel secure in your relationshp with Him? I do not believe that God is going to be in Heaven with ascorecard, or you’re not going to see angels holding signs, like at the airport, saying,:Baptists over here, Methodists over there… To be anti any faith, is to say you are anti God and anti Christian! You are slapping God in the face again, saying(basically) that these Christians who do not espouse your belief system are not worthy of the Kingdom! Blasphemy!

No one is “worthy” of salvation. The surest way to heaven is through Christ’s Kingdpm, the Catholic Church.

 

[1beleevr]

No one is “worthy” of salvation. The surest way to heaven is through Christ’s Kingdpm, the Catholic Church.

John 14:6! I believe that God desires that no man should perish! And all are able to choose salvation, or not! We are no more worthy of salvation, than we are to receive His grace; but He says we can! The catholic church the surest way to Heaven, speculative at best!

 

[CWBetts]

John 14:6! I believe that God desires that no man should perish! And all are able to choose salvation, or not! We are no more worthy of salvation, than we are to receive His grace; but He says we can! The catholic church the surest way to Heaven, speculative at best!

The Catholic Church is the Kingdom of God. What does it say about Christ’s kingship if you willingly stay outside of His Kingdom?

 

[1beleevr]

No one is “worthy” of salvation. The surest way to heaven is through Christ’s Kingdpm, the Catholic Church.

Whoo, Hoo; time to go fishin’, cuz CW just opened a big can of worms! It could be construed that he is implying that if you aren’t catholic, you may not go t Heaven! Is that really what Jesus told me and you?

 

[1beleevr]

The Catholic Church is the Kingdom of God. What does it say about Christ’s kingship if you willingly stay outside of His Kingdom?

So, all these years, I have been lied to; told in effect that the Kingdom of God was equivalen to Heaven! But according to you, it’s the catholic church! And anyone who willingly stays outside the Kingdom, has sealed his fate! BTW, what is the question for non-denominationals? Why don’t we call ourselves Protestant?

 

[CWBetts]

So, all these years, I have been lied to; told in effect that the Kingdom of God was equivalen to Heaven! But according to you, it’s the catholic church! And anyone who willingly stays outside the Kingdom, has sealed his fate! BTW, what is the question for non-denominationals? Why don’t we call ourselves Protestant?

Reasons why the Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God refer to the Church:

1. “repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matthew 3:2) “at hand” means imminent, in the very near future. Did the word of God that came to John the Baptist inspir him to say the wrong thing? I don’t think so. And just to make sure I looked at the Greek. The Greek expression here is “eggizio,” meaning “to draw near.” It has been 2000 years. It didn’t draw very near at all if the Kingdom of Heaven refers exclusively to the final reward.
2. The giving of the Keys. When Simon confesses that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16) Jesus changes Simon’s name to Peter, and awards him the “Keys of the Kingdom.” (Matthew 16:18), fulfilling the type presented in Isaiah 22.22 as the Chief Steward of the House of David, essentially, a Prime Minister to represent the King. (Hence the Papal title “Vicar of Christ”)
3. The Parable of the weeds among the Wheat (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43). This parable makes no sense if the Kingdom is the final reward. The same holds true for the other parables in this chapter.
4. To deny that the Church is the Kingdom is to deny the Kingship of Christ. A king rules over a subjects. If we claim Christ as our King, and we are His subjects, then that means the Church on Earth is His Kingdom, as well as the Holy Souls in Purgatory and the Perfected Saints in Heaven.

I actually wrote a paper on this. If you like I can e-mail it to you.

 

[1beleevr]

Reasons why the Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God refer to the Church:

1. “repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matthew 3:2) “at hand” means imminent, in the very near future. Did the word of God that came to John the Baptist inspir him to say the wrong thing? I don’t think so. And just to make sure I looked at the Greek. The Greek expression here is “eggizio,” meaning “to draw near.” It has been 2000 years. It didn’t draw very near at all if the Kingdom of Heaven refers exclusively to the final reward.
2. The giving of the Keys. When Simon confesses that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16) Jesus changes Simon’s name to Peter, and awards him the “Keys of the Kingdom.” (Matthew 16:18), fulfilling the type presented in Isaiah 22.22 as the Chief Steward of the House of David, essentially, a Prime Minister to represent the King. (Hence the Papal title “Vicar of Christ”)
3. The Parable of the weeds among the Wheat (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43). This parable makes no sense if the Kingdom is the final reward. The same holds true for the other parables in this chapter.
4. To deny that the Church is the Kingdom is to deny the Kingship of Christ. A king rules over a subjects. If we claim Christ as our King, and we are His subjects, then that means the Church on Earth is His Kingdom, as well as the Holy Souls in Purgatory and the Perfected Saints in Heaven.

I actually wrote a paper on this. If you like I can e-mail it to you.

Yes, but you see, God is not constrained by time, and we are ALL His subjects! He is my King as well as yours! It is disingenious to the rest of us Christians to say that we cannot see the Kingdom of God, unless we see it from your church A day is like a 1000 years, and a thousand years is as a day! The Kingdom is open to all who believe in and follow the Lord! Remember, in order to see the Kingdom, one must be born again! Nice theory though!

 

[CWBetts]

Yes, but you see, God is not constrained by time, and we are ALL His subjects! He is my King as well as yours! It is disingenious to the rest of us Christians to say that we cannot see the Kingdom of God, unless we see it from your church A day is like a 1000 years, and a thousand years is as a day! The Kingdom is open to all who believe in and follow the Lord! Remember, in order to see the Kingdom, one must be born again! Nice theory though!

I never said that one CANNOT be saved unless they are Catholic, but it is the surest path to salvation, as it is the Church built upon Peter. It is the Church that has existed since Pentecost. Jesus did not found many Churches, he founded one Church, and He prayed that we should all be united in Him.

 

[look3467]

In short, being Catholic is like buying a guitar fully strung, with an amplifier, tuner, pick, and everything you need. Starting a none denominational church can be like buying a guitar, unstrung, with nothing else.

True, but then who strums your strings?

Where as, one liberated, strums his/hers own strings according to the degree of love they have for God.

The new Testament books are but as a workable work book, by which we learn to deal with all the issues based on 1. spiritual guidance and 2. the word of God. (Bible)

Traditions of man are that, traditions…established based on what mankind deems right in its own eyes as prerequisites to coming to God.

One needs to investigate ones own beliefs in order to define truth and as to what we want to believe and practice in our quest to please God.

A non Catholic is simply a non Catholic and labeled accordingly.

God is not so isolated that is limited to any one belief, but is open to all who would thirst for the knowledge and revelation of God in their own hearts.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There…there it is…come as ye thirst for the water of life…and take freely, no restrictions, just come.

Blessings, AJ

 

[benedictus2]

The new Testament books are but as a workable work book, by which we learn to deal with all the issues based on 1. spiritual guidance and 2. the word of God. (Bible)

Traditions of man are that, traditions…established based on what mankind deems right in its own eyes as prerequisites to coming to God.

Let me give you two traditions that are certainly of man.

Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. Neither can be found in the Bible nor in the teaching of the Apostles. They are as man-made as you can make it.

 

[look3467]

Let me give you two traditions that are certainly of man.

Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. Neither can be found in the Bible nor in the teaching of the Apostles. They are as man-made as you can make it.

Sola Fide, I had to look it up in order to understand what it meant.

Justification by faith.

My thoughts: One can have faith in anything, yet having faith in something that was/is said, and yet not having seen, is blind faith not seen with the naked eye, save the spiritual eye.

Sola Scriptura The word (bible) as standing alone.

The bible, written by various writers, as inspired to do so by God, can only be interwoven together by God’s Spirit to bring about a message to all mankind about the wonderful works of God in behalf of all mankind.

Combine the knowledge of the works of God in faith, and we will see the justification granted us by God.

As you say, those words are not found in the bible, yet they are implied.

Ref: Deu 1:25 And they took of the fruit of the land in their hands, and brought it down unto us, and brought us word again, and said, It is a good land which the LORD our God doth give us.

Take for instance the above verse; we see a picture of Gods works using other words to paint a picture.

Not exact words, but other words with similar words to mean the same thing in a picture.

The fruit of the land, Ten Commandments, brought down by Moses, and then again, brought us “word” (Jesus) and said: “it is good for the land which the Lord God has given us.

Now, what argument can you make against what is implied as God’s works, in a picture painted throughout the bible, many times over of the same picture, that being the works of God in giving us Jesus as our redeemer?

I shall not want, if the justification of my soul by faith in the word of God leads me to salvation.

Need I anything else? Would I now not have what is needed to gain salvation based on what the word of God (Bible) tells me about God’s gift to me?

I am made free in the liberty of Christ!

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Because I have knowledge of the tree of Life, I have reached out to eat of the fruit of that tree, that has been freely offered to me to take, and found justification for my soul in Jesus.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Dokimas]

And this is why I say your post is disingenuous, 1beleevr. You know quite well that there is one teaching of the Catholic Church, yet you choose to ignore it, and respond to the opinions that are around you. If you want to find fault with the Church, and protest her teachings,then do so with some integrity, instead of creating strawmen to attack.

Here’s a definition of ‘straw man argument’ I found.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented …

This is exactly how I feel when you make many of your comments to me and others.

So, as you told Beleevr, “if you want to find fault with” my understanding, “then do so with some integrity, instead of creating strawmen to attack”.