A question for Non-denominationals

[CWBetts]

Okay, so guanophore confused me by saying the word(or inferring it)eucarist was in the Bible! And I suppose by the holy father, you mean the pope? I don’t know about you, but where I am now in my Christian walk(and have been for some time), I am convicted immediately when I have a sinful thought, or even contemplate committing a sin! When I do sin, the Holy Spirit, is all over me with conviction, and I confess that I was wrong, and thank God for His forgiveness; no priest needed! As far as the crucifix, is concerned, I have always thought it was weird, to see one, and was not sure why! Ayoung catholic man told me, that all Christians should wear one! I said,“Why?” He said,“Well, because it’s the right thing to do!” Once again, I asked him,“Why?” “Never mind,” he said. If you enjoy wearing one, by all means, wear one! I just don’t see the need; nor do I have the desire! And in the Last Suppe, we thank Christ for His ONE sacrifice for ALL time! How can we know the Bible better than y’all, when you supposedly wrote it?

A priest is needed for mortal sin. If a priest was unnecessary why was the authority given to the Apostles to forgive sins? A question I have asked before, but you have chosen to ignore.

 

[regression]

Well of course he didAny Christian worth his weight, knows that Christ was crucified, buried(let’s see, they’d have to take Him off the Cross to do that, right?) and of course, the glorious resurrection! Can you even imagine having been Mary Magdalene?

So I don’t understand the objection to a crucifix. To each his own I guess. I wear neither a cross or a crucifix. But I have never understood the objects to a crucifix. Hopefully going off topic like this won’t get the thread closed!

 

[1beleevr]

A priest is needed for mortal sin. If a priest was unnecessary why was the authority given to the Apostles to forgive sins? A question I have asked before, but you have chosen to ignore.

You guys are the only ones who believe that a priest is necessary; so I haven’t ignored, just don’t believe it!

 

[1beleevr]

So I don’t understand the objection to a crucifix. To each his own I guess. I wear neither a cross or a crucifix. But I have never understood the objects to a crucifix. Hopefully going off topic like this won’t get the thread closed!

So, I don’t remember, what is the question for nondenominationals? Why do we differ from denominationals and catholics? Well, I suppose you could say that this is one place we differ, to crucifix, or not to crucifix! My wifebought me one 2 years ago, and I enjoy wearing it; it reminds me of the sacrifice my Saviour made so long ago, for me and everybody else too! To me, an empty Cross screams, “Freedom, liberty, and victory!”

 

[Saul_DelTarso]

I come to this conversation late after having read it all, decided not to engage the arguments, but re-direct my attention to questions for non-denominational Christians.

Too few protestants even know what the term means, too few know what comprises the doctrines they have accepted, and fewer still have made much effort to critically evaluate them. Somebody shows them the verses that back up what they are told, and that’s about the end of it. There is so little actual instruction required to become a “non-denominational Christian” as to be almost laughable.

Those that do any research are usually motivated by a desire to refute Catholicism, or the main-line protestant with actual doctrines, such desire gained from something they read on some web site, or heard from their Chick publications-inspired pastor who loves to rail against the RCC. (My brother is a prime example, if he says to me one more time "not by works but faith alone! I’m gonna drop him on his butt like I did when we were teenagers! lol He’s actually pretty respectful, but irritating in the extreme in his absolutist, unexamined opposition to the RCC)

I think it’s pretty apparent that most simply defend what they inherit and reject an examined and rational set of beliefs that would lead them to the final step of faith in favor of their mostly accidental selections (more accurately blindly accepted doctrines) of one or another flavor of invented, D.I.Y.non-denominational Christianity. The array of mis-information and error out there is just dizzying. I don’t blame them for not trying to sort through them all.

If they did, as I did, they’d eventually convert to Catholicism. The best way to convert someone is to have them do a complete investigation of the entire tangle of 38,000+ protestant/protestant based, or protestant derived churches and their confusing and variant doctrines. If they are intellectually honest, there’s little choice but to return to the Church, or go headlong emergent and start from scratch.

So the question for non-denominational Christians is in two parts:

1) What’s the content of your Catechism? You will no doubt immediately offer up the obvious answer “The Scriptures as I’ve been led by the Spirit!” but here’s the thing, if that’s true, and you haven’t bothered to take highly specific notes, done your own apologetics to record where and how you came to your conclusions in your readings, or if it’s from from preaching you heard, or apologetics you read somewhere and agreed with, what authority do you think you really have? Wait! before you answer that claim, consider that we ALL have Jesus, not just you.

**2) How can you in good faith and reason, actually put yourself on a Catholic web site and deign yourself adequate to the task of arguing with people who DO take their faith as seriously as that? **

 

[1beleevr]

I come to this conversation late after having read it all, decided not to engage the arguments, but re-direct my attention to questions for non-denominational Christians.

Too few protestants even know what the term means, too few know what comprises the doctrines they have accepted, and fewer still have made much effort to critically evaluate them. Somebody shows them the verses that back up what they are told, and that’s about the end of it. There is so little actual instruction required to become a “non-denominational Christian” as to be almost laughable.

Those that do any research are usually motivated by a desire to refute Catholicism, or the main-line protestant with actual doctrines, such desire gained from something they read on some web site, or heard from their Chick publications-inspired pastor who loves to rail against the RCC. (My brother is a prime example, if he says to me one more time "not by works but faith alone! I’m gonna drop him on his butt like I did when we were teenagers! lol He’s actually pretty respectful, but irritating in the extreme in his absolutist, unexamined opposition to the RCC)

I think it’s pretty apparent that most simply defend what they inherit and reject an examined and rational set of beliefs that would lead them to the final step of faith in favor of their mostly accidental selections (more accurately blindly accepted doctrines) of one or another flavor of invented, D.I.Y.non-denominational Christianity. The array of mis-information and error out there is just dizzying. I don’t blame them for not trying to sort through them all.

If they did, as I did, they’d eventually convert to Catholicism. The best way to convert someone is to have them do a complete investigation of the entire tangle of 38,000+ protestant/protestant based, or protestant derived churches and their confusing and variant doctrines. If they are intellectually honest, there’s little choice but to return to the Church, or go headlong emergent and start from scratch.

So the question for non-denominational Christians is in two parts:

1) What’s the content of your Catechism? You will no doubt immediately offer up the obvious answer “The Scriptures as I’ve been led by the Spirit!” but here’s the thing, if that’s true, and you haven’t bothered to take highly specific notes, done your own apologetics to record where and how you came to your conclusions in your readings, or if it’s from from preaching you heard, or apologetics you read somewhere and agreed with, what authority do you think you really have? Wait! before you answer that claim, consider that we ALL have Jesus, not just you.

**2) How can you in good faith and reason, actually put yourself on a Catholic web site and deign yourself adequate to the task of arguing with people who DO take their faith as seriously as that? **

Common sense would dictate simply, that those who are catholic, are, and those who are not, aren’t for whatever reasons! Our pastor doesn’t rail on any denomination, sect, religion or cult, just teaches Jesus! We believe that works do not create salvation, rather salvation creates works! And besides, it’s not by our works that we get to Heaven, but by that ONE work of Christ at Calvary! It is not about who you are, but about who you are in Jesus! It’s not about dress codes,other than being clothed in Christ! It has been interesting to learn all the different twists that individual catholics put on their doctrines; some eating meat on Friday, some not, some going to confession weekly, some less often! Also, Jesus told us not to call anyone on earth, Father, as we have ONE Father, which is God, yet for some reason, catholics choose to call the pope holy father! Jesus also told us through the Word, that He would send an Advocate, to lead us into Spirit and Truth, which He has, in the person of the Holy Spirit! And then there’s the whole enigma about purgatory, a speculative theor at best! Here’s to furhter posting and debating!

 

[CWBetts]

You guys are the only ones who believe that a priest is necessary; so I haven’t ignored, just don’t believe it!

We are the only ones who accept this Truth, and we are the only ones who can trace our history directly to Pentecost. There might be a connection here…

 

[CWBetts]

Common sense would dictate simply, that those who are catholic, are, and those who are not, aren’t for whatever reasons! Our pastor doesn’t rail on any denomination, sect, religion or cult, just teaches Jesus! We believe that works do not create salvation, rather salvation creates works! And besides, it’s not by our works that we get to Heaven, but by that ONE work of Christ at Calvary! It is not about who you are, but about who you are in Jesus! It’s not about dress codes,other than being clothed in Christ! It has been interesting to learn all the different twists that individual catholics put on their doctrines; some eating meat on Friday, some not, some going to confession weekly, some less often! Also, Jesus told us not to call anyone on earth, Father, as we have ONE Father, which is God, yet for some reason, catholics choose to call the pope holy father! Jesus also told us through the Word, that He would send an Advocate, to lead us into Spirit and Truth, which He has, in the person of the Holy Spirit! And then there’s the whole enigma about purgatory, a speculative theor at best! Here’s to furhter posting and debating!

He just preaches about Jesus? What about the rest of the Trinity?

 

[brb3]

As far as the crucifix, is concerned, I have always thought it was weird, to see one, and was not sure why! Ayoung catholic man told me, that all Christians should wear one!

Don’t follow you. One place you say ‘why wear the cross?’ … in another post you say you like wearing one.

Christ taught us to “Take up our Cross, and follow him” [Luke 9:23]. Is it wrong to proclaim the symbol of Christ’s passion for us ?

Are you making the issue into whether the cross is empty … or occupied with corpus of Christ ?

 

[Saul_DelTarso]

1Blvr, what makes you think that the way you personally comprehend the nuance of works and faith, or how you think Catholics comprehend the nuance of faith and works is accurate? I read what you say, and I don’t relate in any way to your characterization of my relationship to works. Shall I assume that the same inspiration by which you personally interpret the scriptures, and choose to observe dogma is the standard, or is there a more complex framework for what you’ve personally determined to be true and validated? If I may ask, how have you determined that? I mean how you’ve gained enough certainty to challenge Catholics. Forgive me if it seems critical, but if you have not personally done the work to understand it, which is apparent, if I may ask, who did it for you?

I’m only asking because you make that statement like it’s somehow authoritative as to how Catholics comprehend faith and works, when I understand on a personal basis that your view as expressed, is completely naive and prejudicial. Sorry to say this, but the simplified regard you have for the Catholic understanding of faith and works is so limited as to do yourself disfavor as a rational being, let alone the misunderstanding and I assume, unintentional, defamation of the Catholic Church that your limited comprehension may reveal. I mean no personal offense I assure you, but am being completely straightforward in my critique of your position. I’m just sayin.

 

[1beleevr]

Don’t follow you. One place you say ‘why wear the cross?’ … in another post you say you like wearing one.

Christ taught us to “Take up our Cross, and follow him” [Luke 9:23]. Is it wrong to proclaim the symbol of Christ’s passion for us ?

Are you making the issue into whether the cross is empty … or occupied with corpus of Christ ?

And I believe that picking up your cross daily, and following Christ, means in part; suffering persecution and challenging of your faith. Daily having to go through some of the same or similar trials that Jesus did(not to the same degree, of course) And I do pick up my cross(and wear one-empty). I asked the young man, "Why a cross, meaning crucifix, which I believe mostly catholics wear, possibly Lutherans! Just saying it’s a matter of choice, whether to wear it or not(crucifix). Some catholics that I know personally have rebuked me in the past for not having a corpus, not calling the pope holy father, and eating meat on Fridays, or not going to confession. This was until they figured that it didn’t do any good, and they stopped. My position is, I choose to wear an empty Cross.

 

[1beleevr]

He just preaches about Jesus? What about the rest of the Trinity?

I’m a little surprised that you asked your question that way, cw! I guess I thought you could figure it out; that our pastor teaches, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and of course God(the only Holy Father we know!) He also teaches Christ crucified, Christ resurrected, faith without works is dead(God saves us to do those good works that He has set aside for us). He teaches that Christians can walk away from their aith; believing for some reason that Jesus is not enough, that there must be something else out there as far as salvation is concerned! He teaches service to our communities, helping others in Jesus’s Name(Mark 10:45), you know, when I was hungry you fed me, when I was naked you clothed me,etc.,etc,. A friend of mine did not understand the Trinity, and sadly, like many Christians, I was not able to explain it to where he understood any better! Then he read that book called,“The Shack.” I know it’s a fictional book, and we should not base any of our faith decisions on it, but when he was telling me about it, he said,“It’s a book about a relationship with God.” He said the book helped him to understand better the different components of the Trinity and how they all work together. Bottom line is, you follow a religion with a very strict set of rules and guidelines; including rituals. After many years, I have discovered the simplicity of the Gospel, and how to have a meaningful personal relationship with Jesus! I like contemporary Christian music, and old hymns. Not much into stained glass and HUGE church buildings, but they are pretty! And do not think for a minute that I have a cavalier attitude towards the Christian life, I am a serious defender of the Cross, but not of a religion! I love God and Jesus as much as you do, my brother!

 

[CWBetts]

I’m a little surprised that you asked your question that way, cw! I guess I thought you could figure it out; that our pastor teaches, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and of course God(the only Holy Father we know!) He also teaches Christ crucified, Christ resurrected, faith without works is dead(God saves us to do those good works that He has set aside for us). He teaches that Christians can walk away from their aith; believing for some reason that Jesus is not enough, that there must be something else out there as far as salvation is concerned! He teaches service to our communities, helping others in Jesus’s Name(Mark 10:45), you know, when I was hungry you fed me, when I was naked you clothed me,etc.,etc,. A friend of mine did not understand the Trinity, and sadly, like many Christians, I was not able to explain it to where he understood any better! Then he read that book called,“The Shack.” I know it’s a fictional book, and we should not base any of our faith decisions on it, but when he was telling me about it, he said,“It’s a book about a relationship with God.” He said the book helped him to understand better the different components of the Trinity and how they all work together. Bottom line is, you follow a religion with a very strict set of rules and guidelines; including rituals. After many years, I have discovered the simplicity of the Gospel, and how to have a meaningful personal relationship with Jesus! I like contemporary Christian music, and old hymns. Not much into stained glass and HUGE church buildings, but they are pretty! And do not think for a minute that I have a cavalier attitude towards the Christian life, I am a serious defender of the Cross, but not of a religion! I love God and Jesus as much as you do, my brother!

“The simplicity of the GOspel”??? The true Gospel is not simple. The anemic 'Faith alone" Gospel is simple, but then that isn’t Truth.

 

[1beleevr]

1Blvr, what makes you think that the way you personally comprehend the nuance of works and faith, or how you think Catholics comprehend the nuance of faith and works is accurate? I read what you say, and I don’t relate in any way to your characterization of my relationship to works. Shall I assume that the same inspiration by which you personally interpret the scriptures, and choose to observe dogma is the standard, or is there a more complex framework for what you’ve personally determined to be true and validated? If I may ask, how have you determined that? I mean how you’ve gained enough certainty to challenge Catholics. Forgive me if it seems critical, but if you have not personally done the work to understand it, which is apparent, if I may ask, who did it for you?

I’m only asking because you make that statement like it’s somehow authoritative as to how Catholics comprehend faith and works, when I understand on a personal basis that your view as expressed, is completely naive and prejudicial. Sorry to say this, but the simplified regard you have for the Catholic understanding of faith and works is so limited as to do yourself disfavor as a rational being, let alone the misunderstanding and I assume, unintentional, defamation of the Catholic Church that your limited comprehension may reveal. I mean no personal offense I assure you, but am being completely straightforward in my critique of your position. I’m just sayin.

Am I to understand that RICA is tedious, although required or recommended, or that you’d rather not go through it if you don’t hve to? Does this mean you are a new convert, or a "cradle catholic’(such a cute handle!) Thessalonians 5:21, says to challenge EVERYTHING, so, when I hear anything which doesn’t quite sound right, I ask questions, which comes across as challenging! Your church has many traditions, rituals and strict rules and guidelines, which probably are sometimes difficult to adhere to. For many Christians, the walk with Christ, can turn into a drudgery of obligation, rather than a joyous privilege! When I read some of the scripture that is used to support the catholic views, it is vague at best! No one has yet to prove without a doubt the authority for addressing the pope as holy father(capitalized anyway). And purgatory, confession and infant baptism are also cloudy! So, if you feel that I am just taking swipes at the catholic religion, you might want to also consider what yourself and others are doing to the noncatholic folks as a whole! Charity is supposed to be a strong point of any Christian, but is not always evident in posts, on both sides. I myself, have been guilty of being less than charitable to my catholic brothers and sisters. It is sometimes very hard to honor 1John 4:20, but the Holy Spirit is helping me immensely. If there are any that I have disrespected, or whose feelings I have hurt, lrt me take this opportunity to say,“I’m sorry,” and ask for your forgiveness. I have already asked for God’s forgiveness and mercy!

 

[CWBetts]

Am I to understand that RICA is tedious, although required or recommended, or that you’d rather not go through it if you don’t hve to? Does this mean you are a new convert, or a "cradle catholic’(such a cute handle!) Thessalonians 5:21, says to challenge EVERYTHING, so, when I hear anything which doesn’t quite sound right, I ask questions, which comes across as challenging! Your church has many traditions, rituals and strict rules and guidelines, which probably are sometimes difficult to adhere to. For many Christians, the walk with Christ, can turn into a drudgery of obligation, rather than a joyous privilege! When I read some of the scripture that is used to support the catholic views, it is vague at best! No one has yet to prove without a doubt the authority for addressing the pope as holy father(capitalized anyway). And purgatory, confession and infant baptism are also cloudy! So, if you feel that I am just taking swipes at the catholic religion, you might want to also consider what yourself and others are doing to the noncatholic folks as a whole! Charity is supposed to be a strong point of any Christian, but is not always evident in posts, on both sides. I myself, have been guilty of being less than charitable to my catholic brothers and sisters. It is sometimes very hard to honor 1John 4:20, but the Holy Spirit is helping me immensely. If there are any that I have disrespected, or whose feelings I have hurt, lrt me take this opportunity to say,“I’m sorry,” and ask for your forgiveness. I have already asked for God’s forgiveness and mercy!

Since when does everything need to be spelled out explicitly in the Scriptures? Jesus surely didn’t teach that way!

 

[1beleevr]

“The simplicity of the GOspel”??? The true Gospel is not simple. The anemic 'Faith alone" Gospel is simple, but then that isn’t Truth.

I am not taking anything away from the Gospel, just implying that there are many I encounter, in my walk, that for some reason believe in adding conditions to it! Jesus died for our sins, and His Blood washed away our sins. Baptism seals that new relationship in Christ, and serving others in His Name(you know like working soup kitchens, street ministry, teaching children about God), you know, works, helps to enlighten your relationship with Christ. The story of the Ethiopian eunuch shows us that one can meet Jesus ANYWHERE, because Jesus is not in a box, or a church for that matter. You can meet Him ther, but you can also meet Him in an 18 wheeler, or a city park! I am in no way trying to diminish the Gospel, but I don’t want it to sound so complicated that it turns people away either. Salvation is a process, not a one time thing. While I may not believe in OSAS, as the catholics believe most noncatholics do, I am still undecided as to whether one can lose completely such a wonderful gift! When did I say that I believed in faith alone; are you streotyping?

 

[1beleevr]

Since when does everything need to be spelled out explicitly in the Scriptures? Jesus surely didn’t teach that way!

Seems to me, that there are many catholics since I have been on this forum, who at one time or another share the same thought,“Where does it say that in Holy Scripture?” I am painfully aware that Christ said many more things that could not(logistically) be recorded in print at that time. Some sy that He never said,“God loves a cheerful giver,” but I believe He said it! How do we know what else Christ said, and whether to believe it? You say, that oral tradition and the teachings of the early church fathers is all we need to make it so; myself, not totally sure. Take purgatory for example; the verses used are 1Cor 3:13-15. is purgatory described as a place, a state of being, or what? If we believe that Christans are not in Heaven after they die, is the soul still with the body? We are to be resurrected, as Christ was, but how can we be, if our soul is in purgatory?

 

[CWBetts]

I am not taking anything away from the Gospel, just implying that there are many I encounter, in my walk, that for some reason believe in adding conditions to it! Jesus died for our sins, and His Blood washed away our sins. Baptism seals that new relationship in Christ, and serving others in His Name(you know like working soup kitchens, street ministry, teaching children about God), you know, works, helps to enlighten your relationship with Christ. The story of the Ethiopian eunuch shows us that one can meet Jesus ANYWHERE, because Jesus is not in a box, or a church for that matter. You can meet Him ther, but you can also meet Him in an 18 wheeler, or a city park! I am in no way trying to diminish the Gospel, but I don’t want it to sound so complicated that it turns people away either. Salvation is a process, not a one time thing. While I may not believe in OSAS, as the catholics believe most noncatholics do, I am still undecided as to whether one can lose completely such a wonderful gift! When did I say that I believed in faith alone; are you streotyping?

Faith alone ans Scripture alone are the pillars of the Reformation, and both are false.

 

[1beleevr]

Faith alone ans Scripture alone are the pillars of the Reformation, and both are false.

Let me ask you again, are you stereotyping? And I agree that there are many who do believe that all you need is faith(not a bad place to start,though). As promised by Jesus, the Advocate,AKA, the Holy Spirit, continues to lead me into Spirit and Truth! And He gives me discernment! You have never really addressed the issue of serving others in His name(outside of your church. Many catholics I have asked about what do they personally do, besides donating money, to catholic charities, beyond their parish, have said, “What I do for my Lord is none of your business.” As a thankful servant, I really enjoy sharing and comparing with other Christians, what types of projects they themselves are involve in. Then we can learn from each other and possibly get contacts for further service. How about you, CW; what types of things are you a part of in His service, besides going to mass, confession, and other required duties of the cc?

 

[CWBetts]

Let me ask you again, are you stereotyping? And I agree that there are many who do believe that all you need is faith(not a bad place to start,though). As promised by Jesus, the Advocate,AKA, the Holy Spirit, continues to lead me into Spirit and Truth! And He gives me discernment! You have never really addressed the issue of serving others in His name(outside of your church. Many catholics I have asked about what do they personally do, besides donating money, to catholic charities, beyond their parish, have said, “What I do for my Lord is none of your business.” As a thankful servant, I really enjoy sharing and comparing with other Christians, what types of projects they themselves are involve in. Then we can learn from each other and possibly get contacts for further service. How about you, CW; what types of things are you a part of in His service, besides going to mass, confession, and other required duties of the cc?

I am active in the pro-life movement
I write two blogs defending the faith, utilizing my talents
I am getting an education, in order to develop my talents
I generally don’t like to brag, as it lessens the value of my works in the Lord by enhancing pride.