A question for Non-denominationals

[jpink1019]

I think calling the Reformation can be more accurately called the “deformation.” All Luther, Calvin, ad the other heretics accomplished was to cause division among Christians by deforming the true faith into some man-made monstrosity. If you have nothing to add to the conversation then begone! I would like to see some kind of reasoned defense of the heresies of Luther, Calvin, and their ilk.

This topic is important enough to converse with sensitivity and understanding on both sides, if you care as much as you say about the split and division between christians, then i think we can all start off with at least taking care in how we dialogue with one another, or else it is for nothing… this goes for everyone.

 

[Eutychus123]

We are not Protestants because we are not protesting your church and we do not originate from the Protestant Reformation. We do not have the same beliefs as they do. Our beliefs originate from scripture alone. It is true that we share certain characteristics of the Radical Reformation but I cannot be sure exactly the differences. We certainly do not have any direct lineage to any group for all practical purposes. I did read Meno Simmons once and thought he had it mostly right though.
I may have been harsh saying it was a distraction. That word has a bad connotation and I will be more careful.

Dear Rightly,

 I do not know when your church was formed.  I have no reason to call it Protestant or not to call it Protestant.  Would you be more comfortable with Evangelical or Pentecostal?    However, I will say that without the Protestant Reformation, the separate existence of your church would be doubtful.  
 When you say that you "do not have the same beliefs that they do"  are you speaking of Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, or none of the above.

 

[Rightlydivide]

There you again,INSISTING the Jews had a FIXED canon prior to Jesus. Nothing you have provided…NOTHING is considered PROOF the Jews had a FIXED canon. A set of books does not equate ito a FIXED canon,which you apparently cannot distinguish.You simply read into the text and want it to say what you want to say,sorry that is not how resources are interpretated and evaluated.

I beg your pardon? I gave ample sources by many people who clearly indicate there is NOTHING supporting your claim.

Ours is the just right? U-huh…and yet you still can provide a single shred of historical evidence when,who and where the Jewish canon was FIXED.

Your sources supported my view as you recall.
Yes, I have given plenty of proof. Quote after quote from people actually living at the time. Instead of relying on scholars with an agenda, I used primary sources which clearly showed my view to be correct.
The time thing is an interesting argument. Catholics like to argue the canon was set in 382 AD. Wait…no…it was actually Carthage 397 AD. Or was it Hippo 393 AD? Local synod after local synod but none of them quite seemed to do the trick until your churches canon was set at Trent.
So having an official time is only useful if it actually had set a caon; which it cannot do. The canon was set the minute the last writing was penned. Humans can never set a canon Nicea. Only God can. The NT canon was set the minute the last book was written. It took years for everyone to discover and understand what the canon was in many cases. Christians discover it not set it. Big big difference.
You see, you overstate the influence of these little regional synods. God sets the canon because scripture is scripture the minute it is penned. Any authority is subsequent to that. Thats Catholic doctrine you know…

 

[Rightlydivide]

Dear Rightly,

 I do not know when your church was formed.  I have no reason to call it Protestant or not to call it Protestant.  Would you be more comfortable with Evangelical or Pentecostal?    However, I will say that without the Protestant Reformation, the separate existence of your church would be doubtful.  
 When you say that you "do not have the same beliefs that they do"  are you speaking of Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, or none of the above.

No Pentecostals engage in learned behavior that is contrary to scripture. There speaking in tongues does not follow the biblical pattern.
Evangelicals are open to any fad.
Fundamentalist is probably the easiest choice. I would say New Testament church but I know what a fight that starts!
Without the Protestant reformation, it would be doubtful. I guess I would say, yes! Hard to argue with that so good point.
However, Reformation in my estimation was inevitable. Looking at the different strands of German, English, and the Radical reformation something somewhere was going to happen. But technically in that matter I would agree with you. I do not have the same beliefs of Luther or Calvin. I might have most of the same beliefs of Zwingli, I have not read him but like I said Anabaptists seem to have very similiar beliefs. Despite the fact we do not have a historical link.
For all practical purposes, my church started in 2000 by a converted atheist who was saaved when the gospel was shared. He started a Bible study and it grew from there. They did not use other commentaries or such from my understanding. It was…Bible alone.

 

[Nicea325]

Your sources supported my view as you recall.
Yes, I have given plenty of proof. Quote after quote from people actually living at the time. Instead of relying on scholars with an agenda, I used primary sources which clearly showed my view to be correct.
The time thing is an interesting argument. Catholics like to argue the canon was set in 382 AD. Wait…no…it was actually Carthage 397 AD. Or was it Hippo 393 AD? Local synod after local synod but none of them quite seemed to do the trick until your churches canon was set at Trent.
So having an official time is only useful if it actually had set a caon; which it cannot do. The canon was set the minute the last writing was penned. Humans can never set a canon Nicea. Only God can. The NT canon was set the minute the last book was written. It took years for everyone to discover and understand what the canon was in many cases. Christians discover it not set it. Big big difference.
You see, you overstate the influence of these little regional synods. God sets the canon because scripture is scripture the minute it is penned. Any authority is subsequent to that. Thats Catholic doctrine you know…

No…you have not given plenty of proof! My sources actually were used against your claim and by the ancients as well. No offense,but apparently you do hot have the education nor the background on the proper methods of historical research.

I’ll ask you more time,if the Jews FIXED the canon,why is it you have failed miserably to provide a single shred of historical evidence when,who and where the Jewish canon was FIXED?

Tell me Rightly…when,who and where was it FIXED…PRIOR to Jesus?

 

[Rightlydivide]

No…you have not given plenty of proof! My sources actually were used against your claim and by the ancients as well. No offense,but apparently you do hot have the education nor the background on the proper methods of historical research.

I’ll ask you more time,if the Jews FIXED the canon,why is it you have failed miserably to provide a single shred of historical evidence when,who and where the Jewish canon was FIXED?

Tell me Rightly…when,who and where was it FIXED…PRIOR to Jesus?

Yes, I gave plenty of proof. I will answer your personal and hostile attack on my education by saying I have regionally accredited degrees and historical research was an important component of all of them. The challenge is somewhat ironic. Evaluating credentials is an important component of my job! Just so you know.
I have stated before that the Jewish canon was fixed the minute the last book was written. Over the course of a few decades the Jews recognized, not set, the canon. IF this distinction is not clear, I will be happy to clarify.
Please do not use colors. It causes me to have a headache and I am out of Tylenol and its too hot to go to the store.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes, I gave plenty of proof. I will answer your personal and hostile attack on my education by saying I have regionally accredited degrees and historical research was an important component of all of them. The challenge is somewhat ironic. Evaluating credentials is an important component of my job! Just so you know.
I have stated before that the Jewish canon was fixed the minute the last book was written. Over the course of a few decades the Jews recognized, not set, the canon. IF this distinction is not clear, I will be happy to clarify.
Please do not use colors. It causes me to have a headache and I am out of Tylenol and its too hot to go to the store.

You have accredited degrees? I find it amazing,then how you should know one cannot make a claim or charge and not back it up? Since you have accredited degrees,then:

**the Jewish canon was fixed the minute the last book was written. **

Really? Where and by whom? Who declared it canonical? Provide me the historical writings confirming such an event or the process taking place.

One more time Righthlydivide…when,who and where was it FIXED…PRIOR to Jesus?

 

[Rightlydivide]

You have accredited degrees? I find it amazing,then how you should know one cannot make a claim or charge and not back it up? Since you have accredited degrees,then:

One more time Righthlydivide…when,who and where was it FIXED…PRIOR to Jesus?

I have backed it up. I gave quote from Josephus. I gave quotes from the early Christian fathers.
The last book of the Old Testament is likely Chronicles. So if that is the case, the canon was set around 400 BC. Who is God. Thats easy. Where, that can get rather interesting. The canon being set by God means that it is set here and heaven. Like I said, it is a process of recognizing what God has done.

As far as these vicious personal attacks, I can endure it. I can handle all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[Nicea325]

I have backed it up. I gave quote from Josephus. I gave quotes from the early Christian fathers.
The last book of the Old Testament is likely Chronicles. So if that is the case, the canon was set around 400 BC. Who is God. Thats easy. Where, that can get rather interesting. The canon being set by God means that it is set here and heaven. Like I said, it is a process of recognizing what God has done.

As far as these vicious personal attacks, I can endure it. I can handle all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Church fathers? I do not think so! Like most non-Catholics,you slice and dice their works to prove your agenda.

Personal attacks? If that is how you take it,then so be it! I too can endure stubborness and denials.

400 B.C.-eh? Really? By whom? Where? Who decided this complex process and gave the final approval that it was FIXED?

Oh brother! You still INSIST Josephus! NO WHERE does Josephesus made a direct statement or declaration it was FIXED. FIXED…Rightlydivide…do you comprehend the term?

 

[jpink1019]

Personal attacks? If that is how you take it,then so be it! I too can endure stubborness and denials.

400 B.C.-eh? Really? By whom? Where did this complex process get the final approval that it was FIXED?

Oh brother! You still INSIST Josephus! NO WHERE does Josephesus made a direct statement or declaration it was FIXED. FIXED…Rightlydivide…do you comprehend the term?

this is uneccessary.
If you feel you are not getting enough information then ask for more.
but even reading this myself, in no way motivates me to want to read.
I personally am hoping for some more information on the topic too if possible.
but the aggressive/unkind dialogue is distressing…
and i don’t think it will get you answers any more quickly…

 

[Rightlydivide]

Church fathers? I do not think so! Like most non-Catholics,you slice and dice their works to prove your agenda.

Personal attacks? If that is how you take it,then so be it! I too can endure stubborness and denials.

400 B.C.-eh? Really? By whom? Where? Who decided this complex process and gave the final approval that it was FIXED?

Oh brother! You still INSIST Josephus! NO WHERE does Josephesus made a direct statement or declaration it was FIXED. FIXED…Rightlydivide…do you comprehend the term?

No, I clearly showed the majority of patristic writers held to the traditional canon. Yes, Josephus absolutely said that. I believe him. I take him at face value. I do not need to explain it away.
God set the canon. Humans recognize it. It worked that way for the Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and us. Catholics have dogmatically defined it, incorrectly I believe, but that is certainly as you can tell the exception.
Humans cannot set or fix a canon. God did. Humans recognize it.
Yes, I comprehend the term.
Thank you.

 

[Nicea325]

this is uneccessary.
If you feel you are not getting enough information then ask for more.
but even reading this myself, in no way motivates me to want to read.
I personally am hoping for some more information on the topic too if possible.
but the aggressive/unkind dialogue is distressing…
and i don’t think it will get you answers any more quickly…

Because he does not give me any other option. There is to much side-stepping and not enough historical evidence to support the belief. Rightly insist on Josephesus as proof,butJosephesus never once states the Jews FIXED the canon at certain point in time.He does not give a specific date or an approximate date or by whom and where such a decision took place.

Everything that Rightlydivide has given is old and same old rheotric. If rightlydivide insist it was fixed,then there should exist something out there confirming when,where and whom made such a decision.

 

[jpink1019]

Because he does not give me any other option. There is to much side-stepping and not enough historical evidence to support the belief. Rightly insist on Josephesus as proof,butJosephesus never once states the Jews FIXED the canon at certain point in time.He does not give a specific date or an approximate date or by whom and where such a decision took place.

Everything that Rightlydivide has given is old and same old rheotric. If rightlydivide insist it was fixed,then there should exist something out there confirming when,where and whom made such a decision.

Is is possible to know ? That will depend on the information rightly can give… and if he has the answer. Otherwise I don’t think there is anything wrong with wanting specifics.

 

[Rightlydivide]

1. There is the quote from Melito of Sardis from around the year 170 AD

Quote:
Accordingly when I went East and came to the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also ἣ καὶ Σοφία: i.e. the Book of Proverbs (see above, p. 200)], Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books

1. Next is that Origen states that the canonical books were handed down by the Hebrews. He then gives the list of the Jewish canon. He then states besides these are the Maccabees. This denoted that these were considered outside of sacred scripture but also given by the Hebrews. In other words, they were valued but his list supports the Jewish canon.
2. Next is the quote from Josephus saying the Jews did not have a variety of books.This is from the 1st century obviously.

Quote:
For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books

 

[Rightlydivide]

1. Next is the Festal letter often cited as the first direct evidence of the NT canon (whether I agree or not is immaterial for this conversation. It is from the year 367 AD

Quote:
There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second45444544 i.e. Ezra and Nehemiah. are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and45454545 i.e. Baruch vi.—The Syriac has the conjunction, which is rejected by the Benedictine editors. the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.

1. Now we turn to Cyril, a bishop in Jerusalem, writing around the year 350 AD

Of these read the two and twenty books, but have nothing to do with the apocryphal writings. Study earnestly these only which we read openly in the Church. Far wiser and more pious than thyself were the Apostles, and the bishops of old time, the presidents of the Church who handed down these books. Being therefore a child of the Church, trench 6 thou not upon its statutes. And of the Old Testament, as we have said, study the two and twenty books, which, if thou art desirous of learning, strive to remember by name, as I recite them. For of the Law the books of Moses are the first five, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. And next, Joshua the son of Nave, 7 and the book of Judges, including Ruth, counted as seventh. And of the other historical books, the first and second books of the Kings 8 are among the Hebrews one book; also the third and fourth 8b one book. And in like manner, the first and second of Chronicles are with them one book; and the first and second of Esdras 8c are counted one. Esther is the twelfth book; and these are the Historical writings. But those which are written in verses are five, Job, and the book of Psalms, and Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs, which is the seventeenth book. And after these come the five Prophetic books: of the Twelve Prophets one book, of Isaiah one, of Jeremiah one, including Baruch and Lamentations and the Epistle; 9 then Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel, the twenty-second of the Old Testament.

1. Next we have Gregory of Nazianzus prior to 400 AD

The divine oracles should always on the tongue and in the mind
be rehearsed. For God will indeed give a reward for this labor,
so that you may obtain light from anything hidden, or, what is far better,
that you may be spurred by God to greater purity,
and thirdly, be called away from the cares of the world by such study.
But let not extraneous books seduce your mind.
For many malignant writings have been disseminated.
Accept, o friend, this my approved number.
These are all twelve of the historical books,
of the most ancient Hebrew wisdom:
First there is Genesis, then Exodus, Leviticus too.
Then Numbers, and the Second Law.
Then Joshua and Judges. Ruth is eighth.
The ninth and tenth books [are] the acts of Kings,
and [the eleventh is] Chronicles. Last you have Ezra. ·
The poetic books are five: Job being first,
then [the Psalms of] David; and three of Solomon,
Ecclesiastes, Canticles and Proverbs.
And similarly five of prophetic inspiration.
There are the Twelve written in one book:
Hosea and Amos, and Micah the third;
then Joel, and Jonah, Obadiah,
Nahum also, and Habakkuk, and Zephaniah,
Haggai, then Zechariah, and Malachi.
All these are one. The second is of Isaiah.
Then the one called as an infant, Jeremiah,
Then Ezekiel, and the gift of Daniel.
I count therefore, twenty-two of the ancient books,
corresponding to the number of the Hebrew letters

 

[Eutychus123]

Because he does not give me any other option. There is to much side-stepping and not enough historical evidence to support the belief. Rightly insist on Josephesus as proof,butJosephesus never once states the Jews FIXED the canon at certain point in time.He does not give a specific date or an approximate date or by whom and where such a decision took place.

Everything that Rightlydivide has given is old and same old rheotric. If rightlydivide insist it was fixed,then there should exist something out there confirming when,where and whom made such a decision.

What date(s) would you give for the Jews setting the canon? Would you give separate dates for Law, Prophets, and Psalms?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Because he does not give me any other option. There is to much side-stepping and not enough historical evidence to support the belief. Rightly insist on Josephesus as proof,butJosephesus never once states the Jews FIXED the canon at certain point in time.He does not give a specific date or an approximate date or by whom and where such a decision took place.

Everything that Rightlydivide has given is old and same old rheotric. If rightlydivide insist it was fixed,then there should exist something out there confirming when,where and whom made such a decision.

Did God set the canon or humans?
God.
The canon was recognized by the early Jews and then the early Christians.
Lets use Irenaeus as an example. How many Gospels did he say there must be? Four, no more, no less. Did a group of people have to get together and debate that? No of course not. Thats how God worked.

 

[Rightlydivide]

What date(s) would you give for the Jews setting the canon? Would you give separate dates for Law, Prophets, and Psalms?

Yes of course there would be different times. Scripture is scripture the minute it is penned, that is Catholic doctrine. When the law was penned, it was canonical. Etc The Jews had to recognize it and they did I contend. This idea of a fluid canon lacks primary sources. Its a theory and a faulty one I believe after my extensive historical research.

 

[Eutychus123]

Yes of course there would be different times. Scripture is scripture the minute it is penned, that is Catholic doctrine. When the law was penned, it was canonical. Etc The Jews had to recognize it and they did I contend. This idea of a fluid canon lacks primary sources. Its a theory and a faulty one I believe after my extensive historical research.

Rightly,

 I had directed that question to Nicea, not you.  I am interested to see what dates he comes up with.  
 Nice job pulling all the historical references.

 

[Nicea325]

No, I clearly showed the majority of patristic writers held to the traditional canon. Yes, Josephus absolutely said that. I believe him. I take him at face value. I do not need to explain it away.
God set the canon. Humans recognize it. It worked that way for the Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and us. Catholics have dogmatically defined it, incorrectly I believe, but that is certainly as you can tell the exception.
Humans cannot set or fix a canon. God did. Humans recognize it.
Yes, I comprehend the term.
Thank you.

Ahhhhh…rightlydivide…you have all of your information mixed and bunched up in a ball and once again are adding to the text. The fact that the patristic writers held to the ‘traditional’ who by the way lived AFTER Christ does not support or prove that the Jews had a FIXED canon prior to Jesus. They are not arguing in your favor and saying,“I see the Jews already had a fixed canon prior to Jesus and it is conclusive.” No!

If it was FIXED as you believe and if that were the case,then why would Jude cite two apocryphal sources in his letter? Two church fathers,Clement of Alexandria and Origen testify references to the apocryphal. Even my NKJV Study Bible discusses this issue.

But wait, I thought it was FIXED? Did Jude mess up and go against the FIXED canon already in place before Jesus? Oh did I mention,Paul also also make references to other sources?

The issue here is that you alone believe the Jews FIXED it before Jesus even was born…that is the issue,not the view of the church fathers about the traditional Jewish canon.

Now,tell me WHERE did it happen? Jerusalem? Tel-Aviv? Ashdod? Hebron?

WHO made such the decision to FIX it before Jesus was even born? The Sadducees? The Pharisees? The Essenes?