A question for Non-denominationals

[Nicea325]

Sure, we can discuss their reasoning for believing what they do. Commentaries are always a good way to examine what some people think about scripture. The important thing is to examine their presuppositions.
The OT was fixed by God. Do you believe that or not? (please answer this question)
The where involves where the Jews began to recognize the canon. The occured starting around the year 400 BC when the last books was written. In Israel and the rest of the area. Many of the Deuterocanonical era writers make reference to this. However, we also know that the OT contains later books referring to earlier books as authoratative, which you probably are aware of.
I believe over the course of our discussions, several times, I have asked for primary sources from you supporting your theory of a fluid canon. If you would like me to send you a link to the various threads in which I asked this, I could do that.

Unbelievable! Nice divergence rightIydivide, I’l ignore those for the moment. I am not going to let you off the hook,until you provide the historical evidence WHERE and by WHOM the OT was fixed.

The OT was fixed by God? But, amazingly God guided the church to fix the NT canon and provided us with plenty of historical evidence,but God erased all historical evidence for the OT?

ONE MORE TIME: Where and whom fixed the canon?

 

[ChadS]

Yes they did. I gave a series of quotes from early church writers. Do you have any primary sources supporting this theory of a fluid canon?
Did you check into the noncanonical writings question and see that we were correct on this matter? I did not want to drop the topic until I am sure.
Thank you

As I mentioned in an earlier post, why do you accept the Jews determination that the canon is closed, if indeed they ever made that call? As Christians we reject the Jews determinations on Christ’s divinity, the authority of the New Testament and the fact that is scripture, and we reject their interpretations of much of Old Testament scripture also. Yet, the Protestants are more than happy to claim their determination is 100% accurate and that it is not possible that they might have erred in leaving out some of the books the Holy Spirit led the Catholic Church to then determine that they are scripture.

ChadS

 

[Nicea325]

No, direct quotes from noncanonical sources do not mean they are considered canonical. IF so, then most of the authors of the Bible were wrong.
It was fixed before the birth of Jude and Paul and Christ.
I am telling you that quoting a noncanonical book does not make something canonical. It never has. Not even Catholics believe that! Although you seem to for some odd reasons.
You are familiar in your extensive research of the Book of Jasher and the Book of the Wars of the Lord?

Thank you for admitting you are DEAD WRONG! Because guess what? Paul did the same and other NT writers quote the deuters as well. Meaning what? The OT was NOT…FIXED. Moreover, it was still OPEN & FLUID!

Thank you for rebuking your own argument,because a FIXED canon would have meant several NT writers would gone outside the FIXED canon you claim was fixed before Jesus birth.

Thanks for the discussion,but now that I shown you how wrong you are in a bogus belief. And why? You never once gave me one historical writing stating WHERE and by WHOM the OT was fixed before Jesus.

All the best…goodbye!

 

[Nicea325]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, why do you accept the Jews determination that the canon is closed, if indeed they ever made that call? As Christians we reject the Jews determinations on Christ’s divinity, the authority of the New Testament and the fact that is scripture, and we reject their interpretations of much of Old Testament scripture also. Yet, the Protestants are more than happy to claim their determination is 100% accurate and that it is not possible that they might have erred in leaving out some of the books the Holy Spirit led the Catholic Church to then determine that they are scripture.

ChadS

Because it is called spiritual pride and rightlydivide is to blind to accept the Jews NEVER FIXED the canon before Jesus. Rightlydivide claims it is a FACT of history,but how ironic after how many requests, he has not provided ONE shred of evidence showing us WHEN,WHERE and by WHOM it was fixed!

 

[Rightlydivide]

Unbelievable! Nice divergence rightIydivide, I’l ignore those for the moment. I am not going to let you off the hook,until you provide the historical evidence WHERE and by WHOM the OT was fixed.

The OT was fixed by God? But, amazingly God guided the church to fix the NT canon and provided us with plenty of historical evidence,but God erased all historical evidence for the OT?

ONE MORE TIME: Where and whom fixed the canon?

The OT canon was fixed by God. It was recognized by the Jews over the course of a thousand plus years. A council or such was not used. The evidence was not erased. There are NT clues, patristic sources and Jewish writers who attest to the canon as they recognized it.
God did not erase any form of evidence. Would you agree for example that Irenaeus refers to certain books of the NT as being scripture prior to any council?
Thanks
One more time. The canon was fixed the minute the last book was penned. It was recognized over time by the Jews by all existing primary sources I have read and was not fluid at the time of Christ.

 

[Rightlydivide]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, why do you accept the Jews determination that the canon is closed, if indeed they ever made that call? As Christians we reject the Jews determinations on Christ’s divinity, the authority of the New Testament and the fact that is scripture, and we reject their interpretations of much of Old Testament scripture also. Yet, the Protestants are more than happy to claim their determination is 100% accurate and that it is not possible that they might have erred in leaving out some of the books the Holy Spirit led the Catholic Church to then determine that they are scripture.

ChadS

I accept it because prior to the coming of Christ, in the particular dispensation given to the Jews, they recognized the canon. What was once scripture cannot suddenly not become scripture because scripture is God breathed. That does not cease based upon the mistake I believe of the church around the year 350 to 400 AD.
The patristic evidence, that I gave, prior to that time frame supports my contentions.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Thank you for admitting you are DEAD WRONG! Because guess what? Paul did the same and other NT writers quote the deuters as well. Meaning what? The OT was NOT…FIXED. Moreover, it was still OPEN & FLUID!

Thank you for rebuking your own argument,because a FIXED canon would have meant several NT writers would gone outside the FIXED canon you claim was fixed before Jesus birth.

Thanks for the discussion,but now that I shown you how wrong you are in a bogus belief. And why? You never once gave me one historical writing stating WHERE and by WHOM the OT was fixed before Jesus.

All the best…goodbye!

Why did some books mentioned in the Bible perish and not make it into the canon? Were they not inspired?

A: Some books the Bible mentions were not inspired but are simply used as historical sources. This is the case when Paul quotes books by the pagan writers Aratus, Menander, and Epimenides (Acts 17:28, 1 Cor. 15:33, and Titus 1:12, respectively) or when the Old Testament refers us to the book of the Annals of the Kings of Media and Persia (Esther 10:2).

The same is likely true of the book of the Annals of the Kings of Israel (1 Kgs. 14:19) and the book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah (1 Kgs. 14:29), which may simply have been court records or secular histories of the periods they discussed. The same goes for the book of the Kings of Judah and Israel (2 Chron. 16:11), and the Memoirs of Nehemiah (2 Macc. 2:13).

Other books contained genuine revelation, though the book as a whole was not inspired. This is the case with the book of Enoch, which is quoted in Jude 14, and possibly a book known as the Assumption of Moses, which appears to be quoted in Jude 9. A work of unclear status is the book of Jashar, which is twice quoted in the Old Testament (Josh. 10:12-13, 2 Sam. 1:18-27) and seems to be a book of songs concerning the history of Israel.

Among uninspired books mentioned in the Old Testament are the Records of Samuel the Seer, the Records of Nathan the Prophet, and the Records of Gad the Seer (1 Chron. 29:29), the Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, the visions of Iddo the Seer concerning Jeroboam son of Nebat (2 Chron. 9:29), the Records of Shemaiah the Prophet and of Iddo the Seer (2 Chron. 12:15), the Annotations of the Prophet Iddo (2 Chron.13:22; the references to works of Iddo may be different ways of referring to the same book).

In the New Testament, there are references to a third letter from Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9) and of a letter of his to the Laodiceans (Col. 4:16; though many have thought this letter to the Laodiceans is the same as the letter to the Ephesians). Such books may have been inspired, but for some reason God chose not to have them passed down and included in the canon.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Because it is called spiritual pride and rightlydivide is to blind to accept the Jews NEVER FIXED the canon before Jesus. Rightlydivide claims it is a FACT of history,but how ironic after how many requests, he has not provided ONE shred of evidence showing us WHEN,WHERE and by WHOM it was fixed!

I have provide evidence of the whom. That is God.
I have provided the when. Around 400 BC.
I have also provided the whom.
For example, early Jewish writers like Josephus attest to a fixed canon.
If you have any primary sources that contend otherwise, please provide them.
As far as the personal insults, I prefer to stick to the facts.

 

[look3467]

The old Testament establishes the need for the new!

The Jews are an instrument the hand of God in laying down the foundation for a greater work of God.

The Old Testament is God’s foundation via the Jewish nation (Mountains) in which God establishes His mountain atop of.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

The establishment of the Mountain of the Lord is not Israel, as it were (mountains = meaning, responsible for the word of God in word and deed, having given way to a new mountain, one built by God, spiritual, as a work of salvation in behalf of all mankind, in Jesus Christ!

So, if the New Testament Church (spiritual) is to have a basis for it’s existence, than the Old Testament is it’s foundation, which point directly to the one who is to establish the new.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Psa 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

The rejection of Jesus by the Jews was in accordance to the Old in order to establish the new.

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Blessings, AJ

 

[ChadS]

I have provide evidence of the whom. That is God.
I have provided the when. Around 400 BC.
I have also provided the whom.
For example, early Jewish writers like Josephus attest to a fixed canon.
If you have any primary sources that contend otherwise, please provide them.
As far as the personal insults, I prefer to stick to the facts.

So the canon was fixed by around 400 BC, which is convenient since that’s right before the Deuterocanonicals were written. Then you go on to say that Josephus attests to this, but if I’m not mistaken Josephus was writing in 40s through 60s AD. That’s 400 year gap that needs to be explained away.

ChadS

 

[Rightlydivide]

So the canon was fixed by around 400 BC, which is convenient since that’s right before the Deuterocanonicals were written. Then you go on to say that Josephus attests to this, but if I’m not mistaken Josephus was writing in 40s through 60s AD. That’s 400 year gap that needs to be explained away.

ChadS

The 400 BC date was given as around when the Old Testament book was written. Its not a matter of convenience but historical scholarship. The date of the writing of the Deuterocanonicals is somewhat germane in some arguments against their inclusion. I do have Deuterocanonical sources but like I said in an earlier thread I would prefer to have a certain book to help support that. We do agree that Josephus and what he says about the OT canon matches what our canon looks like.
Your request for evidence from 400 BC to the time of Christ is reasonable and will be supplied.
It was all on a previous thread I started that no longer exists. But I will get it. What would you say about the patristic quotes I supplied from 150 AD to 400 AD about the Old Testament canon? Why did the church get it right for 400 years and then suddenly change it?

 

[CWBetts]

Well, he’s not the vicar of Christ to us, and that is a terrible analogy!

He IS the Vicar of Christ. There is no subjective element to his authority.

 

[1beleevr]

He IS the Vicar of Christ. There is no subjective element to his authority.

Dude, get over yourself; he’s your pope,for the catholics, that’s it! He is not over noncatholics!:rolleyes

 

[benedictus2]

No, we follow the canon of the Jews and the early Christian church.

Nope. The early Christian Church used the Septuagint.

You use a canon that found favor around the years 350 to 400 AD. They were never canonical.

Not for the Jews. But since when have we said that what is canonical for the Jews is what should be canonical for the Christians? If we go by that rule then we would have to throw out the whole NT. Or don’t you know that the Jews do not even consider Jesus the Christ let alone God?

So my friend, if you want to be strict about it then stick to the Hebrew Bible ALONE.

 

[benedictus2]

Dude, get over yourself; he’s your pope,for the catholics, that’s it! He is not over noncatholics!:rolleyes

Whether you recognize him or not he is your pope because Christ made no conditions when He made Peter the shepherd of His flock. Christ did not say, Peter, shepherd your sheep. What He did say is shepherd MY sheep.

If you belong to Christ’s flock, then the Pope is the shepherd that Christ has appointed for you.

If you are sure that the Pope is not your shepherd then you probably do not belong to Christ’s flock because it is His flock that He entrusted to Peter and his successors.

 

[jlhargus]

A: Some books the Bible mentions were not inspired but are simply used as historical sources. This is the case when Paul quotes books by the pagan writers Aratus, Menander, and Epimenides (Acts 17:28, 1 Cor. 15:33, and Titus 1:12, respectively) or when the Old Testament refers us to the book of the Annals of the Kings of Media and Persia (Esther 10:2).

The same is likely true of the book of the Annals of the Kings of Israel (1 Kgs. 14:19) and the book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah (1 Kgs. 14:29), which may simply have been court records or secular histories of the periods they discussed. The same goes for the book of the Kings of Judah and Israel (2 Chron. 16:11), and the Memoirs of Nehemiah (2 Macc. 2:13).

Other books contained genuine revelation, though the book as a whole was not inspired. This is the case with the book of Enoch, which is quoted in Jude 14, and possibly a book known as the Assumption of Moses, which appears to be quoted in Jude 9. A work of unclear status is the book of Jashar, which is twice quoted in the Old Testament (Josh. 10:12-13, 2 Sam. 1:18-27) and seems to be a book of songs concerning the history of Israel.

Among uninspired books mentioned in the Old Testament are the Records of Samuel the Seer, the Records of Nathan the Prophet, and the Records of Gad the Seer (1 Chron. 29:29), the Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, the visions of Iddo the Seer concerning Jeroboam son of Nebat (2 Chron. 9:29), the Records of Shemaiah the Prophet and of Iddo the Seer (2 Chron. 12:15), the Annotations of the Prophet Iddo (2 Chron.13:22; the references to works of Iddo may be different ways of referring to the same book).

In the New Testament, there are references to a third letter from Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9) and of a letter of his to the Laodiceans (Col. 4:16; though many have thought this letter to the Laodiceans is the same as the letter to the Ephesians). Such books may have been inspired, but for some reason God chose not to have them passed down and included in the canon.

JL: Could you give the line for this information, I would like to read it? Also is your day of worship Saturday?

 

[ChadS]

Not for the Jews. But since when have we said that what is canonical for the Jews is what should be canonical for the Christians? If we go by that rule then we would have to throw out the whole NT. Or don’t you know that the Jews do not even consider Jesus the Christ let alone God?

So my friend, if you want to be strict about it then stick to the Hebrew Bible ALONE.

Thank you for saying this. I don’t think many Protestants realize the theological implications for making the claim that the Jews closed the canon so it must be closed for Christians. Or at least if they do I haven’t seen any evidence on this thread. I would hope that something that is at least thought of.

As for the Council of Jamnia that supposedly closed the OT canon, Steve Ray has some interesting things to say on that

The Council That Wasn’t

ChadS

 

[Rightlydivide]

It is from this website.
I usually attend on Sunday not Saturday

 

[Rightlydivide]

Lets talk about the Greek translation of the OT. Did you know that the earliest existing copies of this from several centuries after Christ show the gradual growth of this translation as it added books contrary to its earlier use? There is no historical evidence that the Greek translation contained extra books at the time of Christ. None. Now go prove me wrong and be ready for a surprise.

 

[Rightlydivide]

You will never hear me make the Jamnia claim. I actually went to school and know that no one has believed that for 30 years. Of course web scholarship is about that far behind sadly.
The Jews canon being closed does not reflect on the Christian NT canon. It never has. Nice theory but tell me how the Jewish canon has had ANY implications on the NT canon. Its a scare tactic. It has no teeth.
IMAGINE the horror if the Jews closed their canon and its possible implications on the NT canon!!
Imagine…uh…oh yeah…nothing bad has come from that.
Theological implications…lets hear what has ACTUALLY happened that has had any impact on the New Testament church.