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NotWorthy
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I think the seed that planted OSAS has generated the teaching which some call the prosperity doctrine.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
It is not only appealing, it is throughout Scripture. It is no surprise you do not see it based on your teaching. As I have said numerous times now and no one seems to be able to take a step back and say; hey this is an important issue, salvation, shouldn’t we have numerous examples of people gaining, losing and regaining their salvation; yet we have zero because it isn’t part of Scripture and in fact if it were like that; I would throw my Bible away as pure fiction. Why do I say that because of the glaring contradiction the bible teaches about the work of the Holy Spirit.
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Notice it is only by FAITH - very important
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand {were} sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand ***{were} sealed. ***
In the Jewish culture this word “pledge” (2 Corinthians 1:22) would / was used on relation to legal contracts as what we would call “earnest” money or down payment for a promise to be received later. From a Christian perspective, we have received the HS as a promise or pledge from God as to our full redemption to be received on the day we are with Him; it is God’s promise, not earned, not merited and not lost.
Pledge “arrabōn”: an earnest
- money which in purchases is given as a pledge or down payment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
Jesus tomb was sealed by order of Pilate (I believe it was Pilate). But the point is clear; and how much more is the emphasis when the King of King gives the Holy Spirit who seals the believer till the day of redemption in Christ?
The real question is…R U sealed by the HS of promise with a pledge ? I know I am. If OSAS is not true, then neither is the work of the Holy Spirit and the Bible is pure fiction because God is a liar and God is weak and cannot fulfill His promises by keeping His own; or you are wrong. I’ll go with the latter and trust in God.
Sealed “sphragizō” - to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
- for security: from Satan
- since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
- in order to mark a person or a thing
- to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
- angels are said to be sealed by God
- in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
- to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt 1d
- of a written document 1d
- to prove one’s testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
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Roblox84
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Yes but as with any other contract or pledge that we make, if we do not obide by the rules that were given to us in that contract, it will void it.
But you answered this for me already in stating: Money which in purchases is given as a pledge or down payment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
I would also like to mention that no matter how right someone may seem explaining OSAS, I personaly wouldn’t buy it just because it was never around in the very first churches. It doesn’t even need biblical explanation, you just look up the date which people started believing in it.
But you answered this for me already in stating: Money which in purchases is given as a pledge or down payment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
I would also like to mention that no matter how right someone may seem explaining OSAS, I personaly wouldn’t buy it just because it was never around in the very first churches. It doesn’t even need biblical explanation, you just look up the date which people started believing in it.
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Masters_Servant
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What is spiritual rebirth then? Define it from your own understanding since you opened tat door; should be interesting answer.
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, to the praise of His glory.
Here is one of the best examples of the promise of salvation, sealed by God, the HS given as a “down payment” for that promise (we walk by faith), because we our God’s own possession for His Glory. It is all about God and displaying His glory through our redemption in Christ Jesus. Try to take that away from God if you can as you claim.
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Roblox84
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I don’t know what there is to explain. It’s all true, we do have the promise of salvation, we are marked by the holy spirit and given the promise of salvation.
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Masters_Servant
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The problem you are unable to get past is that salvation is not about YOU; it is about God displaying His glory to His creation.
I did not ignore the other parables; they speak the same truths; God has 100 sheep that are His (elect); one strays away; HE, important, HE goes after the sheep, the sheep never go after HIM. The Woman represents God, one of Her coins, Her possession, what She owns, is lost and She goes and finds it.
You do not get it; you think it is about you; it is about God. the entire plan, yes plan, of creation and redemption, is about God , not about us, some of us are blessed to be part of that redemptive aspect. For God’s glory is displayed in His mercy as well as in His wrath.
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Masters_Servant
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His name is Jesus. Luther did not come up with anything new as you have been taught and also believe.
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
OSAS by Jesus. Did you know that what Jesus prays and asks for He always gets and no one can change that, not even you nor 1 billion others like minded. i already know your response before you even write it; that is how predictable you have become. Your natural reaction would be to focus in on a single word “may”; which would miss the point that what He prays for He receives.
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Masters_Servant
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This tells me you do not know what the New Covenant is. It is a one-way contract made by God to man; we only need to believe and walk by faith. I’m not spouting “easy believism” because what it means to “believe” means to believe everything that is true of Christ and live by it, not of your own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit working inside the believer of without, no one can persevere.
That would be foolish assumption on your part. For all the writers taught it; they did not call it OSAS, if you want to argue when the label was assigned, then argue that, but it doesn’t change that it is all over Scripture. You either see it and believe it or you do not see it and don’t believe it. After this discussion and thread; you will not be able to stand in the presence of God and say you were ignorant of it.
Based on your reasoning, you should get rid of the confessional booth and never enter one again. You should never say the rosary again as well. I am not telling you not to do what you believe to be right; I am making the point that your reasoning is flawed.
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I may as well make an apology while I’m at it because I have no intention on changing or pushing anyone away from their personal beliefs based on their religious ideologies or teachings. One belongs to their religion because they find it useful and believe it to be true and divine.
So if anyone has been offended or has found me to be too pushy, then please let me know privately so I can adjust. I am in a Catholic forum and I am a guest and guests can and do wear out their welcome and I want to maintain that perspective and attitude; so please correct me in private and not in public; that is all I ask.**
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Masters_Servant
Guest
**If anyone has a followup to any posts remaining here that are unanswered or questions about any comments I have personally made, then please send me an email. My tone in this thread has become too personal and I do not want to be that personal because it then gives the appearance of being insulting or Catholic teaching bashing; I am an observer and will debate the merits of a doctrine, but only at a doctrinal level, not a personal level and I feel as though I have violated my own standards. Therefore I am deleting this subscription after this post. As most of you know it is easy to get a little carried away about something we all feel so strongly about.
God bless each of you and hope to see all of you around in another topic. I would like to start a thread on the issue of sin; so look for it over the next 3-4 days as I pray, think and prepare on it. It is, IMO, the most important issue next to salvation and is inseparable from salvation in how we deal with sin before becoming a Christian and throughout our walk.
MS**
God bless each of you and hope to see all of you around in another topic. I would like to start a thread on the issue of sin; so look for it over the next 3-4 days as I pray, think and prepare on it. It is, IMO, the most important issue next to salvation and is inseparable from salvation in how we deal with sin before becoming a Christian and throughout our walk.
MS**
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Roblox84
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The interpretations I saw for OSAS are crafty indeed. It shows that fundamentalists are hard at work. But you have to remember that when you go against Catholic doctrine, you are going against thousands of years of Church history and the biggest Christian religion. People that wish to argue against such a large religion only claim that they feel threatened by it. I would much rather stick with the group then join a minority faith that was founded by some Joe Schmoe who picked up the bible a thousand years later and claims he was practicing his faith in hiding.
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NotWorthy
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It’s true that it is God seeking our return, but we must cooperate. One can’t go kicking and screaming back to God. What if the Father in the Prodigal Son had gone and physically retrieved the son? No, it was the son responding to the call of the Father’s love.
And if all this was "elect will return only because of God, then why is there so much rejoicing upon their return? It sounds like the issue was in doubt.
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NotWorthy
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I’m not sure if I’d used the term “Spiritual Rebirth”. I’d say that our spirits are being born “from above”. It’s the awakening of the soul as it is united with God’s Love as he enters our soul and dwells with us. A “re-birth” would imply that our souls were awake before.
But just as the parables in Luke 15 indicate, the sheep CAN leave the fold. The problem is, they don’t always return. THAT’S why the angels celebrate so much upon their return, because the issue was in doubt.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Jesus wants all of us to get to heaven, for He loves us all. Is that going to happen? Or does Jeses love us another that He gives us the Free Will to choose our paths - salvation or damnation?
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NotWorthy
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I glossed over this passage earlier. But it bothered me later on as I thought about it and I’m wondering if you meant what you said. “It’s a ‘one way’ contract”. I don’t know if you actually think that, because you follow it up with, “we only need to believe and walk by faith” which sounds like you understand that it is a two way contract (I use contract for lack of a better term, because a Covenant is anything BUT a contract).
With all Covenants, there are blessings as well as curses. If one party doesn’t live up to their side of the Covenant, they suffer the curses. If they do live up to it, they receive the blessings. Now, we KNOW that God will live up to His side of the Covenant promises. Therefore…
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elvisman
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**If you believe in OSAS - you do not have a grasp on what free will means. Your problem is that you actually believe that God forces his love on us. And for the unlucky – he hates them and never gives them a chance. This is beyond ludicrous – and heretical.
As for examples - I already gave you the example of Judas – who was chosen to be a leader of the Church, performed miracles and cast out demons in Jesus’ name. And, in typical fashion – you blew it off. God never forced his love on Judas – nor did he make Judas do what he did – even though you think he did.
As for your refusal to answer my question, maybe you didn’t understand what I was asking. I’ll reword the question so that you might understand.
Up until the Reformation the historic Christian Church did not teach OSAS.
My question, again:
Do you believe that they were wrong for 1500 years?
PS –** If you believe that the Church DID teach OSAS for the first 1500 years of its existence – please provide PROOF from the Early Church Fathers – and not your own opinions.**
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Tomster
Guest
We become just before God not through a non-imputation of sin but by an interior renovation which blots out sin. This is effected by sanctifying grace, which is explained as a reality poured forth upon us and inhering in us.
Beyond any doubt, this is the teaching of Scriptures and of the great leaders of Christian thought from the beginning.
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elvisman
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**You’ve been given dozens of verses that disprove OSAS and you have not addressed one single verse –and have been allowed carte blanche to spew your venom. Not this time, friend - so let’s see if you can put the Scriptures where your mouth is. **
These verses speak to real, genuine believers, warning them NOT to lose faith or they will be cut off from God:
Rom.*** 11:22-23***
**See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. **
**And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. **
2 Peter 2:20-22
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
This verse speaks to people who reject his Church, yet still believe they are doing his will:
Matt. 7:21
**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. **
***Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ ***
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you Depart from me, you evildoers.'
These verses speak to the importance of persevering and the danger of falling away:
Matt. 24:10-13
Then they will hand you over to persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of my name. And then many will be led into sin; they will betray and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. ***
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. ***
In these verses – Paul admits that even he - who is perceived by others to be a shoe-in for salvation – CAN fall away.
1 Cor. 4:4
I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
1 Cor. 9:27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
Here the writer tells the believers to hold onto hope. Why HOPE for something that is guaranteed??
Heb. 3:6
We are his house, if only we hold fast to our confidence and pride in our hope.
**In this verse – we are told to be extremely cautious and wary in regards to our salvation. This is a perfect illustration that we do not have a guarantee. **
Phil. 2:12
“So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
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elvisman
Guest
continued …
Here, Peter tells us to be on our guard so we will not fall from our secure position. Remember – it’s ONLY secure IF we persevere in faith, which is of our OWN FREE WILL.
2 Peter 3:17
“Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.”
Here - John is telling believers to remain in God. He tells them to LET (allow) what they heard remain in them. Since they have the power to ALLOW it – this is a clear-cut example of free will:
1 John 2:24
“Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.”
Here, Peter tells us to be on our guard so we will not fall from our secure position. Remember – it’s ONLY secure IF we persevere in faith, which is of our OWN FREE WILL.
2 Peter 3:17
“Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.”
Here - John is telling believers to remain in God. He tells them to LET (allow) what they heard remain in them. Since they have the power to ALLOW it – this is a clear-cut example of free will:
1 John 2:24
“Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.”
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Tomster
Guest
elvisman,
Thanks for your previous posts.
It appears that Masters Servant is having some difficulty distinguishing between the terms “redemption” and “salvation.” He fails to understand that Redemption was won for all mankind. Salvation is individual, and being saved is a process.
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elvisman
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EXACTLY.elvisman,
Thanks for your previous posts.
It appears that Masters Servant is having some difficulty distinguishing between the terms “redemption” and “salvation.” He fails to understand that Redemption was won for all mankind. Salvation is individual, and being saved is a process.
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